King Air down at Essendon?
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Mickg0105
I have read the VH-AAV cover to cover, studied it, and used it as a training guide.
You are correct, he did retract the gear, but late, he did not retract the flap till his IAS was approx 95k, putting him 26K below blue speed, (his blue speed flap out was 106k), he eventually feathered the propeller very late, in ground effect, and ATC evidence was that he was so low he was leaving a wake in the water. He then zoom climbed to clear the rock wall and VMC took over.
He made, I think 3 separate hand held mic calls.
IMHO, his only option, once in ground effect, having put himself so far behind the drag curve, was to ditch straight ahead. Pulling up, doomed everyone.
Ironicly, the failed engine pumped through the water in the fuel, and reignited, and was at stable idle at impact, a fact that initially confounded the investigators, and further evidence that the PIC did not complete his drills correctly, ie failing to secure the dead engine.
I say again with great conviction VH-AAV was a text book case of exactly what not to do with an EFATO.
Cheers Gazumped
You are correct, he did retract the gear, but late, he did not retract the flap till his IAS was approx 95k, putting him 26K below blue speed, (his blue speed flap out was 106k), he eventually feathered the propeller very late, in ground effect, and ATC evidence was that he was so low he was leaving a wake in the water. He then zoom climbed to clear the rock wall and VMC took over.
He made, I think 3 separate hand held mic calls.
IMHO, his only option, once in ground effect, having put himself so far behind the drag curve, was to ditch straight ahead. Pulling up, doomed everyone.
Ironicly, the failed engine pumped through the water in the fuel, and reignited, and was at stable idle at impact, a fact that initially confounded the investigators, and further evidence that the PIC did not complete his drills correctly, ie failing to secure the dead engine.
I say again with great conviction VH-AAV was a text book case of exactly what not to do with an EFATO.
Cheers Gazumped
Since ATSB is a politically correct and pliant organisation, we already know what the outcome of its report will be; after three years of stalling, they release their report blaming the pilot.
CASA will go through the maintenance and operational paperwork for the aircraft and find that the torque wrench used to tighten the LH Outer wheel valve cap was two days past the due date for recalibration and the operators DAMP manual was missing a comma on the Fifteenth page, second paragraph. CASA will then enmesh the operator in punitive action: "show cause" notices and legal operations. The operator will be bankrupted by this unless they are smart enough to go into administration today.
The Coroner will conduct her investigation and conclude:
1) Golf is a risky sport.
2) Heavier than air aircraft should be made illegal.
3) If there was no airport at Essendon, then there would be no Essendon airport.
The State Government will blame the Liberal party for not closing the airport in 1923. They will then rezone the airport as residential land and announce plans to relocate Essendon airport to Mildura.
The media will ignore anything to do with aviation by this weekend.
The families of the pilot and passengers will be left with tears and memories as they watch their personal tragedy get used by politicians and bureaucrats for their own nefarious purposes.
Condolences to the families.
CASA will go through the maintenance and operational paperwork for the aircraft and find that the torque wrench used to tighten the LH Outer wheel valve cap was two days past the due date for recalibration and the operators DAMP manual was missing a comma on the Fifteenth page, second paragraph. CASA will then enmesh the operator in punitive action: "show cause" notices and legal operations. The operator will be bankrupted by this unless they are smart enough to go into administration today.
The Coroner will conduct her investigation and conclude:
1) Golf is a risky sport.
2) Heavier than air aircraft should be made illegal.
3) If there was no airport at Essendon, then there would be no Essendon airport.
The State Government will blame the Liberal party for not closing the airport in 1923. They will then rezone the airport as residential land and announce plans to relocate Essendon airport to Mildura.
The media will ignore anything to do with aviation by this weekend.
The families of the pilot and passengers will be left with tears and memories as they watch their personal tragedy get used by politicians and bureaucrats for their own nefarious purposes.
Condolences to the families.
Last edited by Sunfish; 21st Feb 2017 at 21:01.
Rated on a light single... so trying to get my head around EFATO in a complex twin.
Firewall the live engine, then retract flaps, and if you have enough presence of mind, start the gear cycling.
Wouldn't you sink due to sudden reduction in camber with flaps retracting?
Isn't that a problem if you're 100 - 200 feet AGL?
Or would the several seconds the flaps take to retract from say flaps 10 (which I assume is around the takeoff setting in the B200) be offset by the spool up of the live engine to max thrust - which on a PT6 I assume is next to instantaneous.
Just asking.
Firewall the live engine, then retract flaps, and if you have enough presence of mind, start the gear cycling.
Wouldn't you sink due to sudden reduction in camber with flaps retracting?
Isn't that a problem if you're 100 - 200 feet AGL?
Or would the several seconds the flaps take to retract from say flaps 10 (which I assume is around the takeoff setting in the B200) be offset by the spool up of the live engine to max thrust - which on a PT6 I assume is next to instantaneous.
Just asking.
Sunfish, such cynicism in one so young as yourself is distressing... :-)
You forgot two additional points:
I understand this is a husband-and-wife operation, so I expect they are already closed down. No further action by the regulatory authority required.
Anyone who once looked at a plane will now be shoved into a suit and in front of a camera as an "aviation expert".
The "Close Down Essendon Airport" crowd now have another statistic to reinforce their argument that the Airport should be closed down. 17 deaths over 40 years is a loss of life which cannot be tolerated.
Edit: Please note - I am not belittling the loss of life, as each one of those deaths is a tragedy. I do object to the fact that a similar loss of life over a similar time frame on any road in Australia would not raise an eyebrow, much less a request for the road to be closed.
You forgot two additional points:
I understand this is a husband-and-wife operation, so I expect they are already closed down. No further action by the regulatory authority required.
Anyone who once looked at a plane will now be shoved into a suit and in front of a camera as an "aviation expert".
The "Close Down Essendon Airport" crowd now have another statistic to reinforce their argument that the Airport should be closed down. 17 deaths over 40 years is a loss of life which cannot be tolerated.
Edit: Please note - I am not belittling the loss of life, as each one of those deaths is a tragedy. I do object to the fact that a similar loss of life over a similar time frame on any road in Australia would not raise an eyebrow, much less a request for the road to be closed.
They might as well close Bankstown, Archerfield, Jandakot and MEL, SYD BNE and PER as well while at it.
They all started as empty paddocks but are now surrounded by cheap housing and or factories.
What a country we have become.
They all started as empty paddocks but are now surrounded by cheap housing and or factories.
What a country we have become.
JEM, runway30, Mungo - yep you guys know it, the crash of VP-BBK. Glad you guys seem to know what your talking about.
Report, for anyone is interested:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...pdf_022814.pdf
The general King Air community also believe that it could have also been a factor in the Wichita FSI crash, however the NTSB doesn't comment on that. Both engines were functional though according to the investigation.
In both of the above it was the LH engine.
Once again, this is not implying anything in regards to the Essendon crash. I just thought it wasn't a bad time to mention the phenomenon and hopefully someone might learn.
Hammerstan, not sure what your getting at but some VERY basic sums you'd be under MTOW. There's not much point me putting made up figures here as it serves no purpose.
As for if they were all sitting on the left, yeah nah, not an issue.
Report, for anyone is interested:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...pdf_022814.pdf
The general King Air community also believe that it could have also been a factor in the Wichita FSI crash, however the NTSB doesn't comment on that. Both engines were functional though according to the investigation.
In both of the above it was the LH engine.
Once again, this is not implying anything in regards to the Essendon crash. I just thought it wasn't a bad time to mention the phenomenon and hopefully someone might learn.
Hammerstan, not sure what your getting at but some VERY basic sums you'd be under MTOW. There's not much point me putting made up figures here as it serves no purpose.
As for if they were all sitting on the left, yeah nah, not an issue.
Last edited by Car RAMROD; 21st Feb 2017 at 21:49.
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Sunfish:
You're making one major mistake with the above assertion. You're not considering the passengers on-board. This will be one of the most heavily litigated aircraft accidents in Australian aviation history.
One passenger was a founding partner at a Texas law firm, along with some other successful Americans - they have the means and i imagine the desire to pursue this matter.
Given this was a charter flight each pax will only get $725k from the aircraft operator. Thereafter the lawyers will start looking for options, this will include any maintenance organisation who ever touched the aircraft, the engine manufacturer, the aircraft manufacturer, the avionics supplier - everyone who ever had anything to do with this aircraft, including the airport operator will be dragged in front of the courts. From the subsequent investigations and defenses we will learn a lot more than just "it was the pilot's fault"
Since ATSB is a politically correct and pliant organisation, we already know what the outcome of its report will be; after three years of stalling, they release their report blaming the pilot
One passenger was a founding partner at a Texas law firm, along with some other successful Americans - they have the means and i imagine the desire to pursue this matter.
Given this was a charter flight each pax will only get $725k from the aircraft operator. Thereafter the lawyers will start looking for options, this will include any maintenance organisation who ever touched the aircraft, the engine manufacturer, the aircraft manufacturer, the avionics supplier - everyone who ever had anything to do with this aircraft, including the airport operator will be dragged in front of the courts. From the subsequent investigations and defenses we will learn a lot more than just "it was the pilot's fault"
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OK guys; getting off-topic a bit here, also approaching this backwards IMHO. Dive into the books and quote all the numbers you like, but the fact is that it did NOT behave as it should have so I'd be looking at reasons why it DIDN'T not why it should have performed better. Nobody has brought up the old rule: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Why is the pilot making Mayday calls a few seconds off the runway when he 'should have' been flying the aeroplane, getting it sorted and then making a PAN call? This guy should not have been panicking at this experience level so he's got more than just a failure of #1 to contend with. This morning I saw a clip on News 24 of a prop being lifted out of the scene. No burn, so likely it's come out of the building, so likely it's from the left engine. It wasn't feathered and was not developing power. Damage was consistent with it windmilling into that roofing iron. That's a starting point for the investigators right there.
Right on cue: A first-time poster who knows "facts". 
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There are three posts here that need reflection. #138, #159 and #165
The ATSB is a tragic organisation and even more tragic is the fact they will now "play" with this investigation for years and tell us nothing!
I hope the relatively new Chief Commissioner has learned the lessons of the past and moves this along.
Perhaps the CC could start by closing out the Hotham investigation. Alternatively he could come out and say "unlike the rest of the world we are unable to complete an investigation in 12 month. I apologise for our incompetence, watch me at the inevitable Senate inquiry that Senator X will call"
Make way for the US lawyers.....
The ATSB is a tragic organisation and even more tragic is the fact they will now "play" with this investigation for years and tell us nothing!
I hope the relatively new Chief Commissioner has learned the lessons of the past and moves this along.
Perhaps the CC could start by closing out the Hotham investigation. Alternatively he could come out and say "unlike the rest of the world we are unable to complete an investigation in 12 month. I apologise for our incompetence, watch me at the inevitable Senate inquiry that Senator X will call"
Make way for the US lawyers.....
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Gee - thanks LB; way to welcome a newbie. We all have to post a first comment someday. I've been part of this industry for over 50 years so I've got some clout. No facts were presented - just observations. I'm using the same info you are - what we've seen reported, and no-one has mentioned the prop before so I've thrown that in the mix. Let's see a responsible reply to what I've raised.
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There are reportedly two mayday calls, and I don't believe the contents have been released
That's not two Mayday calls. It's not even one full Mayday call.
No facts were presented - just observations.
the fact is that it did NOT behave as it should have so I'd be looking at reasons why it DIDN'T not why it should have performed better.
You also said:
Why is the pilot making Mayday calls a few seconds off the runway when he 'should have' been flying the aeroplane, getting it sorted and then making a PAN call?
You also said:
It [the propeller] wasn't feathered and was not developing power.
What's the difference between assertions of fact and "observations" of what DID and DID NOT happen?
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 21st Feb 2017 at 22:52.
