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King Air down at Essendon?

Old 21st Feb 2017, 06:14
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 75
Originally Posted by boeinginthewest View Post
Pilot of C90 at Toowoomba had a piece of hot section in his skull at the autopsy according to the Coroner no? Yet ATSB went to town on his poor training history.
No! This from the ATSB report:

'There was no evidence that medication, alcohol, carbon monoxide or other toxic substances adversely affected the pilot at the time of the accident. There was no other evidence to indicate that the pilot may have become incapacitated prior to impact.'

~ AVIATION SAFETY INVESTIGATION 200105618 Beech Aircraft Corporation C90 VH-LQH Toowoomba, Qld
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 06:17
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
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PT-6 turboprop engines aren't exactly known as the most unreliable powerplants employed on high performance light to medium FAR 23 category aircraft. In fact, far from it. It scares me that something which can potentially lead to a catastrophic engine failure (most likely the hot end - turbine) can go undetected. I am sure the ATSB folks will know where to look, apart from the crash debris. Paperwork might be an equally telling source of information.

By the way, I'm reasonably familiar with the location of the Essendon DFO (as I've been there regularly over the past few years) and the crash site, having been in the Spotlight store many times which took the brunt of the impact. Years before, during frequent visits to Melbourne and travel in the vicinity of the southern boundary of YMEN on the Tullamarine Freeway, I was astonished to see the construction of the DFO complex within the former boundary of the airfield. I guess this is what can occur when a Commonwealth asset is leased out to a commercial operator for 99 years and needs to go gang busters with commercial property development on the site to cover its lease/capital and other costs well before the expiration of the lease period. Having watched aircraft take off on the same RWY 17 from the DFO carpark always made me think 'what if the unthinkable happens and an aircraft experiences an emergency upon take off?' Well, fatefully, we discovered that 'what' today.

I grew up and used to live around the eastern approaches to YMEN for many years, have endured the many campaigns to close the airport and have been horrified by the further residential development that have occurred in the past 15 years which has given us the new suburb of Gowanbrae, bounded by the Western Ring Road and the Moonee Ponds Creek, along which I used to bike ride past before and during it's initial subdivision. If that's enough, it happens inside the boundary of the airport.

When is enough, enough, for these rent seekers supported by the legislators ?
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 06:21
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Of course the media are quick to pick up that the pilot was also one of the pilots involved in the near miss at Mt Hotham in 2015 - do they really need to bring such things up so soon?
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 06:38
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
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Bugger:

Whilst not implying anything in relation to this accident, are there any King Air drivers out there that are unaware of a bit of a gotcha in relation to (what I call) power lever slide-back?
Due to incorrect friction settings; it likes to happen on takeoff when your hands come off the power levers and you go to retract the gear. It can feel like an engine failure.

Car RAMROD:

In this type of machine, with the veteran in question: I would be very very surprised if he had a hand off the power/prop levers:
Power lever slide back, is for the new age, hands off power levers:
remember systems dont fail anymore, power levers dont slide back, and many many training organisations filled with experienced HEAVY ENLIGHTENED OPERATORS, DO INSIST that once you rotate you release the thrust levers/prop levers: I say Thrust and Prop because I spread my hand and cover all, and forcibly if needed push them all forward if needed:
Hand on all until Im retracting flap.

Now as for weight, and speed at which one rotates, is another mattttttttter.

A good bastard, better than me, now
gone.

# 17 in what was my career! and it hurts:

HS/R.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 06:39
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: FNQ
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Car Ramrod

Toruck, if you have an over torque it will not auto feather on you, that's not how the system works. Pull the power lever back, if that has no effect, cut the fuel and manually feather. I would expect though, that if the engine failed after an uncorrected over torque event that the prop will automatically feather.
Retarding the power lever will deactivate the auto feather, both power levers need to be
in the take off power range (I cant recall the exact number but around 88%Ng) for auto
feather to arm, then if Tq falls (once again I forget the exact number) to around
200ft/lbs the system will feather.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 06:43
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
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The dash cam video is very blurry but to me it seems the aircraft is going down too quickly even if it has one engine on full power. Perhaps it is the angle but it looks wrong to me.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 06:46
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
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ABC report plane made a 180

ABC news 24 are repeating an earlier report by Ben Knight which says the plane took off then essentiall did at least a 180.

He says
"The initial radar tracking of the plane suggested that it didn't really make it very far past the end of the runway before crashing into the DFO shopping Center, which lies just a very very short distance from the end of that runway. But it err since become apparent that the plane did go beyond the runway, over the freeway that forms the border of the airport and then tried to turn back and it was on the return to the airport that the catastrophic engine failure obviously led to the plane descending very quickly, according to eyewitnesses, they said it was just coming in very low very fast and at completely the wrong angle and it crashed into that shopping center."


Chanel Seven report says it crashed as per the flight radar track.

Mickjoebill

Last edited by mickjoebill; 21st Feb 2017 at 09:49.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 07:06
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flywatcher View Post
The dash cam video is very blurry but to me it seems the aircraft is going down too quickly even if it has one engine on full power. Perhaps it is the angle but it looks wrong to me.
I've checked the dashcam against radar and the debris field and I'm still curious as to the track, if the dashcam is to be believed.

The extended line of bulla road northwards, points to the intersection of the two runways.
The dash cam video taken from bulla road shows the plane coming from camera left, from the western side of bulla road.

This would mean the aircraft if tacking off from runway 17, turned left at a point well past the runway intersection. But this would be a hard left bank which is not born out in the dashcam video.

There is more left to right component in the movement portrayed on the (crappy) video than rear to forward component. In theory we should be seeing a more frontal view of the plane.

Mickjoebill

Last edited by mickjoebill; 21st Feb 2017 at 07:16.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 07:27
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Trying to avoid built up areas?

The dash cam video does show the plane flying from NW to SE in wings level. The PIC had already completed part of a turn (his direction was no longer following the RWY centreline by a long way), and by the point the dash cam shows, the wings were level. If you are going to crash, better to be wings level.
When you look at Google maps, the options off the end of RWY 17 are houses.
Perhaps the PIC was turning enough to avoid the houses and was trying to make it to open space back on the airfield, but for whatever reason did not have performance, hence having wings level to get any performance that was there.
I guess we will never know where he was hoping to put down, if they hadn't hit spotlight the plane might have made it onto the Tullamarine Freeway.
Very bad place to be in a twin (or any a/c) when you aren't getting OEI performance.

We'll let the investigators do their work.

RIP all
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 07:35
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Elevator Driver, I'm well aware of how the auto feather system works. I think you misinterpreted what I wrote: re-read my last sentence in the text you quoted, focusing on "if the engine failed after an uncorrected..." (meaning you did nothing). The last sentence is a different scenario to the rest of the quoted text.
As for numbers, do 400 and 200 ft/lb Tq switches sound familiar to you? You were close with 88%- it's actually about 90% based off power lever microswitch position.



Hoggs, how does one get the gear up without removing a hand from either the control column or the power levers?

The slide back in the B200 can be very rapid. I'm not talking about setting the power, rolling down the runway without your hands on the levers and it slowly comes back, I'm talking the moment you take your hand off it slides back fairly quickly- enough to feel like an engine failure.

Sounds like you are not familiar with the mechanisms on the King Air.
Let me explain further.
There's a spring in the system that pulls the power levers back to idle. If the friction is not done up firm enough, after you set take off power if you remove your hands from the levers (to raise the gear), you might find one or both levers slide back pretty promptly.
There is a seperate friction adjustment for each power lever, hence why one or both might slide depending on friction adjustment.
Typically for any maintenance work on the power/prop/condition levers or FCU/governors, the friction is wound off, and engineers may not firm them up again when they are finished. It can catch you out if you haven't checked before going flying that the friction is set appropriately.

If the pilot is smart enough to realise it's just a slide of the power lever then problem solved, push it back up and tighten the friction (very interesting to watch someone trying to fly the plane with one hand, and then get the power lever back up and tighten the friction with the other).
But if not, and you rush into thinking you have an engine failure (because humans don't make mistakes right?), then you could well mishandle the situation.



As I said, this is by no means to be taken as me saying this is a factor in this accident. It's a gotcha that may not be known by some King Air pilots and if having some additional knowledge saves them from a some unnecessary stress one takeoff (on a dark and stormy night no doubt too!) then good.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 07:38
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Terribly tragic but fortunate that more weren't killed. I don't mean to devalue the lives lost but it could have been worse. I'm not sure what word best describes such situation.

Catastrophic engine failure with mayday called by the sounds of it. What causes the engine failure though? Was it a mechanical issue? Pilot error? Weather? Bird strike? Contaminated fuel? Runway contamination & engine ingestion? Some more likely than others but no doubt the ATSB will thoroughly investigate. Terrorism or sabotage would seem extremely unlikely.

Would this aircraft be fitted with a black box for ATSB analysis?

A sad day for the families of those killed and in the history of Australian aviation.

My condolences to all affected.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 07:38
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Ben Morgan, You are an idiot to say anything to the tv news outlets. You just got quoted out of context by Channel7...AOPA agrees that Essendon should close????....way to go, sunshine

A single sentence that agrees with the meme and an hour of talking that does not ends up on the cutting room floor.

On the tapemessage below the screen-
Greens and Pilot's Union say airfield should close

Lead in to interview, pilots union says this was an accident waiting to happen...

..and the quote?

"These elements do pose an enormous risk to the flying public..." Sharp edit and you are sunk, Ben.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 08:04
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Raider1 View Post
Fairfax is reporting the pilot as Max Quartermain.

RIP
Oh shoot. Met him on a number of occasions over my 20 years in the industry.

DF.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 08:10
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
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OMG! there are some really fookin stupid sods about:

Car ramrod:
Hoggs, how does one get the gear up without removing a hand from either the control column or the power levers?

Oh for fks sake! give me breath! How long does it take??? hand back to position Y S Fng Sod.

Yes I am familiar, and experianced, but I find dealing with the likes of you tedious and tiresome, dipsticks with no logic:

Do you want it all, do you need it all explained, I once thought this sight was for PILOTS, not wanna be's.

No doubt a sub 45-50 year old, with a university education, or airline procedures trained and nit picking.

Fook did I make a mistake venturing back into this electronic world of fact fiction and everyones a fooking expert:

HS/R.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 08:12
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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That time of the morning, the Tullamarine freeway inbound (to the east and south) would have been full of commuter traffic, while the outbound side would have been full of traffic going to MEL.

Atmospheric conditions were cool and still with very little air movement. Mt alexander road to the south may have been a better option.

I know that Vic Roads have a response plan to bypass a crash at the trumpet (intersection of tulla and calder freeways) through essendon airport but I don't think it works the other way.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 08:17
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
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VH-AAV in 1980 was throughly investigated and the ATSB published an extensive report. Basicly despite the low QNH and high temp, if the PIC had successfully carried out just "one" of the following, full power, or gear up, or flap up, or rudder to prevent yaw, or feathered the engine the aircraft would have climbed away, this is inspite being slightly overweight. So in in summary in VH-AAV's case the PIC did a flat skidding turn, failed to retract the gear, did not apply full power, did not feather the dead engine, did not select flap up, but he did make 2 or 3 hand held mic calls to ATC, in retrospect it was a copy book example of exactly what not to do.
The B200 is almost idiot proof, an engine failure is most certainly no reason to crash, IMHO.

Hope that all makes sense.
Cheers Gazumped
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 08:19
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Remembering back 15 years: B200 normal takeoff is with 0 flap. Rotate is @ 95kts, 5kts below the power-off stall speed. V2 is (from memory) 121kts. Once it gets to 121kts it is a rocket and will handle fine engine-out at all weights. An engine failure close to V1 is a handfull. It can take about 5000-8000ft of ground distance to accelerate to V2 in that condition and it is difficult to control the roll (noting the now non-blown wing is close to stall speed) and yaw tendancies. Have practiced V1<V2 cuts at high DA (Colorado Springs) in the sim and ended up flying through the tower on a number of them. Obviously the only place you can be exposed to it is in the sim. It's certified under FAR/CAR Part 23, so no requirement for an accelerate/go option. Again, it will make most gradients at V2 but you'll blow through the obstacle clear plane before you get to V2 on a lot of runways if you have a V1 cut; can make planning night/IMC departures tricky if you want to keep a 'go'option. Approach (40) flap takeoff brings the rotate down to 94kts, can't remeber the power-off stall in that configuration but it reduces the climb-out gradient and (again because of FAR/CAR23) there is no published 2nd segment that I can recall.

Last edited by Barry Bernoulli; 22nd Feb 2017 at 06:24.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 08:25
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
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Spare me:

Sounds like you are not familiar with the mechanisms on the King Air.
Let me explain further.
There's a spring in the system that pulls the power levers back to idle. If the friction is not done up firm enough, after you set take off power if you remove your hands from the levers (to raise the gear), you might find one or both levers slide back pretty promptly.
There is a seperate friction adjustment for each power lever, hence why one or both might slide depending on friction adjustment.
Typically for any maintenance work on the power/prop/condition levers or FCU/governors, the friction is wound off, and engineers may not firm them up again when they are finished. It can catch you out if you haven't checked before going flying that the friction is set appropriately.

Well Bugger me! Only the fookinjg king air has this:::: POWER SLIDE BACK IS A COMMON ISSUE, OR USED TO BE , ON MOST SINGLE PILOT OPERATIONS, AND ONE THAT WE OLD BASTARDS WERE TRAINED TO RECOGNIZE, IVE BEEN CAUGHT/EXPERIENCED IT IN A MULTITUDE OF MACHINERY! THE PURPOSE OF ONE HAND ON BOTH< IS THAT WHEN YOU DO NEED TO RAISE THE GEAR, "IT TAKES ALL OF .5 OF A FOOKIN SECOND TO POSTITION THE GEAR LEVER, BUT THE POWER HAND GOES BACK TO THE POWER AND PROPS AUTOMATICALLY< and IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THE FRICTION, IT IS NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER ( YOU GET IT) AN ISSUE:

Aviation was always so simple, now its a complicated fookin science.

HS/R.
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 08:43
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The center of the earths surface
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forgive the formatting:

Take-Off Initial Climb
(to 5000 ft) Initial Climb
(to FL150) Initial Climb
(to FL240) MACH Climb Cruise Initial Descent
(to FL240) Descent
(to FL100) Descent (FL100
& below) Approach
V2 (IAS) 115 kts IAS 145 kts IAS 230 kts IAS 230 kts MACH TAS 260 kts MACH IAS 250 kts IAS kts Vapp (IAS) 100 kts
Distance 570 m ROC 2000 ft/min ROC 1000 ft/min ROC 1000 ft/min ROC ft/min MACH 0.48 ROD ft/min ROD 1500 ft/min MCS 110 kts Distance 540 m
MTOW 5670 kg Ceiling FL350 ROD ft/min APC B
WTC L Range 1600
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Old 21st Feb 2017, 08:51
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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And for your further Info:

This is at MTOW, CG at rear limit, from my experience, they perform almost identical to the graph:

The King AIr, "WILL" from a suitable runway, at V1, can have a power failure, accelerate to VR, and rotate gently and it will climb away on one at 12500lbs brake release weight, and will settle into a climb of circa 130 kts for around 900-1000 ft/min ROC, after raising the gear, and flap passing 400 ft agl.

It will do this, any one wish to argue the toss?? and give me all the power slide backs you want!!!!

HS/R
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