Aircraft down, Lancefield, Vic
From memory, Skyview software from edition 13.0 has flight data logging capability.
I am wrong about the Brumby too - it was the Lightwing website that didn't pass the smell test. Software, electronics, cars, catamarans and ...aircraft?????
I am wrong about the Brumby too - it was the Lightwing website that didn't pass the smell test. Software, electronics, cars, catamarans and ...aircraft?????
Last edited by Sunfish; 13th Apr 2016 at 06:16.
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I reckon diversification is the name of the game in aviation now, unless you're Cirrus (wholly owned by the People's Republic of China), or Piper (wholly owned by the Sultan of Brunei). While a single-minded focus on aviation is admirable, it carries undeniable financial risk.
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you talking the Hughes lightwing? Howard is a very knowledgable aircraft builder. and an all round good bloke as well. drop in and say Hi and have a look around his factory next time your in Lismore.
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A fumbled stall recovery, leading to a spin is one of the more likely scenarios
To be compliant with this published requirement, there are instructors who deliberately force the aircraft into grossly improbable attitudes then apply rudder to manually force a wing drop while the LSA still had adequate flying speed. Airframe stress results and in the long term can lead to serious consequences including component failure.
With many GA and RAA instructors adhering to the hoary old (incorrect) teaching of picking up a dropped wing with rudder, the scene is set for a potentially deadly combination of slow speed near the stall and excessive rudder deflection which is the recipe for a spin. Some LSA engines require the throttle to be held firmly back against a spring in order to obtain idle power. This is because there is often a tendency for the throttle to creep forward unless firmly held back. Worse still, if some power is left on, it can lead into a flat spin.
It is good practice during a preflight briefing on stalling to discuss the correct recovery from a wing drop at the point of stall. However it is not good instructor practice to then artificially and deliberately place the aircraft into gross upset attitudes simply to meet a compliance requirement in an aircraft designed with benign stalling characteristics.
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A37575, I was taught, quite correctly, many years ago when doing aerobatics that one does not "pick up a dropped wing with rudder" one stops further yaw with rudder. Could you please explain why, when the wing is stalled, stopping further yaw with rudder is incorrect?
Getting airspeed back is a higher priority. The aircraft will do that by itself, and get close to balanced, if the pilot would stop doing whatever they were doing to artificially create the situation in the first place.
Stopping further yaw with rudder is correct in a fully developed spin but most aircraft can maintain roll control through a stall and will only be yawing if the pilot is giving it a bootfull of rudder and has put it out of balance deliberately.
Stopping further yaw with rudder is correct in a fully developed spin but most aircraft can maintain roll control through a stall and will only be yawing if the pilot is giving it a bootfull of rudder and has put it out of balance deliberately.
It is hard to fumble a stall recovery when most LSA are designed not to drop a wing at the point of stall. Most LSA simply mush gently down with no discernible wing drop. My understanding is the RAA syllabus of training includes stall recovery from a dropped wing.
A37575, you need to get out and fly a few more RAAus aircraft if you think this. Quite a few will bite you if you stall out of balance.
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A37575, you need to get out and fly a few more RAAus aircraft if you think this. Quite a few will bite you if you stall out of balance.
But to deliberately throw around an LSA over the sky and abuse it with ridiculous unusual attitudes and throw in a boot-full of rudder, all to pretend its a vicious aeroplane that drops a wing at the stall, is not only poor airmanship, but a potential hazard to the next bloke to fly it.
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Could you please explain why, when the wing is stalled, stopping further yaw with rudder is incorrect?
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Everyone needs good stall/spin training.
The standard in GA generally is terrible, if RAA cannot do spin training at all then you need to go to a gliding club or GA aerobatic school and get the training regardless.
Sometimes the most begnign aircraft will bite under some circumstances. (C of G, power on, etc)
The standard in GA generally is terrible, if RAA cannot do spin training at all then you need to go to a gliding club or GA aerobatic school and get the training regardless.
Sometimes the most begnign aircraft will bite under some circumstances. (C of G, power on, etc)
With many GA and RAA instructors adhering to the hoary old (incorrect) teaching of picking up a dropped wing with rudder,
The above must be forgiven, as they are only complying with the "Competency Standard" published by CASA for handling a "dropped wing".
Actually, in the real world of real aeroplanes ( or is it "airplanes") I would very strongly suggest you employ the technique applicable to the aeroplane.
Sometimes the most begnign aircraft will bite under some circumstances. (C of G, power on, etc)
Too true, try a "good old C-172, at aft C.of G with landing flap ( particularly the "barn door flaps) --- just about where you will be with Mum and the kids packed in for a weekend away ---- it will, with very minor mishandling, flick on its back.
Everyone needs good stall/spin training. The standard in GA generally is terrible, if RAA cannot do spin training at all then you need to go to a gliding club or GA aerobatic school and get the training regardless.
Tootle pip!!
PS: The Brumby 600 has impeccable handling compared to almost anything, it complies with current FAR 23 handling standards. Keith Engelesman gave it the tick, and he is a very tough judge.
Last edited by LeadSled; 15th Apr 2016 at 08:59.
I hope something comes out of the investigation that will prevent this happening again. I knew Terry well, if he could get caught out, anybody can. My bones feel a 'flat-spin' that failed to recover. Terry would have known the correct recovery technique so why didn't it come out? One would think side-by-side seating should eliminate the aft C of G trap.
The Safety Guru's have given us High Vis Vests and prohibit us from flying with a tube of toothpaste but have removed spin training from the syllabus along with certification of spin recovery. Mad, totally nuts in my opinion.
I know in the Grumman AA1 the spar is used as a tank and under certain conditions the fuel in a spin goes outwards towards the tips and can cause the spin to stabilise. Does the Brumby have a conventional fuel tank? I have spun many aircraft and they are all different in some ways and the differences shouldn't be unknown.
The Safety Guru's have given us High Vis Vests and prohibit us from flying with a tube of toothpaste but have removed spin training from the syllabus along with certification of spin recovery. Mad, totally nuts in my opinion.
I know in the Grumman AA1 the spar is used as a tank and under certain conditions the fuel in a spin goes outwards towards the tips and can cause the spin to stabilise. Does the Brumby have a conventional fuel tank? I have spun many aircraft and they are all different in some ways and the differences shouldn't be unknown.
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Terry otway - Vale
Following up on the tragic accident - a funeral for Captain Terry Otway and a celebration of his enormous contribution to aviation, over many years will be held on Friday 22nd April, 11am at Penfield (Sunbury) Airfield. 295 Settlement Road, Sunbury. Ops will be suspended at the airfield from 1000 local
Quote:
With many GA and RAA instructors adhering to the hoary old (incorrect) teaching of picking up a dropped wing with rudder,
A37575 et al.,
The above must be forgiven, as they are only complying with the "Competency Standard" published by CASA for handling a "dropped wing".
With many GA and RAA instructors adhering to the hoary old (incorrect) teaching of picking up a dropped wing with rudder,
A37575 et al.,
The above must be forgiven, as they are only complying with the "Competency Standard" published by CASA for handling a "dropped wing".
Interesting point. On the other hand the CASA Flight Instructors Manual states:
Quote..RECOVERY WITHOUT POWER
Control column forward to un-stall the wings. As the
speed increases ease out of the dive.
Emphasize that if a wing drops, rudder is used to prevent
yaw into the direction of the lowered wing. The wing is
raised with aileron when it is un-stalled.
RECOVERY WITH POWER
Brief the student that the recovery using power is similar
to that when no power is used with the addition that full
power is applied at the commencement of recovery. Point
out that you will be demonstrating that use of power results
in recovery being made with a much decreased height loss
compared with the recovery without use of power.
It is important to stress that power, if used too late,
i.e. when the nose of the aeroplane has dropped below
the horizon, will result in an increased loss of height.
Stress that the recovery using power is the normal
method of recovering from a stalled condition of flight.
Unquote.
Moderator
Stress that the recovery using power is the normal
method of recovering from a stalled condition of flight.
... but should go on to include
(a) at low level (AF447 is a good example of why ..)
(b) and where ground contact is a likely outcome.
It remains a pity that the ops and certification folks don't have coffee often enough to get a straight story on this and other subjects ..
method of recovering from a stalled condition of flight.
... but should go on to include
(a) at low level (AF447 is a good example of why ..)
(b) and where ground contact is a likely outcome.
It remains a pity that the ops and certification folks don't have coffee often enough to get a straight story on this and other subjects ..
It remains a pity that the ops and certification folks don't have coffee often enough to get a straight story on this and other subjects
People seem to latch on to just one part of cert reqts applicable at one point in time. eg normal category spin - one turn to recover after a spin of one turn - nope, it may actually be much longer from a spin aggravated by gross mishandling.
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I've read on this thread that, the way to recover from a "dropped wing" stall is to apply full rudder. I'm a pilot in training and was being trained by Terry himself, we never practised that stall. Having said that I recall Terry mentioning to me when they first bought the Brumby and flew it in to Penfield, the rudder wire snapped on the way.
The school had it repaired since but when I read about the stall recovery manoeuvre, I couldn't help but think about that incident. Could a rudder failure have caused the crash?
The school had it repaired since but when I read about the stall recovery manoeuvre, I couldn't help but think about that incident. Could a rudder failure have caused the crash?
Moderator
a recent flight test certification seminar
drat ... I thought that was on at the end of April .. intended to go as I haven't been to one for a few years .. maybe next time around.
People seem to latch on to just one part of cert reqts applicable at one point in time
Hence our oft-exhorted story here that the TCDS design standard makeup needs to be reviewed as a matter of course.
Worse is the situation where a person in authority latches onto a design standard requirement where there exist multiple options .. and then decides that the one which applies is the one which appeals .. regardless of the fact that the OEM chose an option incompatibly different in handling considerations. Has caused me heartache in the past ..
the way to recover from a "dropped wing" stall is to apply full rudder
First time I observed this technique was shortly prior to first solo. The instructor put in a bootful of top rudder and within the space of an eye blink, I was observing the ground through the top of the windscreen.
Not a good general technique unless the POH indicates, specifically, that it might be required.
drat ... I thought that was on at the end of April .. intended to go as I haven't been to one for a few years .. maybe next time around.
People seem to latch on to just one part of cert reqts applicable at one point in time
Hence our oft-exhorted story here that the TCDS design standard makeup needs to be reviewed as a matter of course.
Worse is the situation where a person in authority latches onto a design standard requirement where there exist multiple options .. and then decides that the one which applies is the one which appeals .. regardless of the fact that the OEM chose an option incompatibly different in handling considerations. Has caused me heartache in the past ..
the way to recover from a "dropped wing" stall is to apply full rudder
First time I observed this technique was shortly prior to first solo. The instructor put in a bootful of top rudder and within the space of an eye blink, I was observing the ground through the top of the windscreen.
Not a good general technique unless the POH indicates, specifically, that it might be required.
Agilekhan,
Only ever put in enough rudder TO PREVENT FURTHER YAW.
You are not picking up the wing, you are stopping the yaw.
Stall,
Simultaneously lower the nose sufficient to unstall the wings (usually a release of the back pressure is sufficient) and increase power
Rudder to orevent further yaw
When the wings are unstalked, level the wings WITH AILERON
Recover from dive.
Stalls are not scary, go a d practice with an instructor, then practice by yourself. I tend to practice one at least every third flught or so.
Only ever put in enough rudder TO PREVENT FURTHER YAW.
You are not picking up the wing, you are stopping the yaw.
Stall,
Simultaneously lower the nose sufficient to unstall the wings (usually a release of the back pressure is sufficient) and increase power
Rudder to orevent further yaw
When the wings are unstalked, level the wings WITH AILERON
Recover from dive.
Stalls are not scary, go a d practice with an instructor, then practice by yourself. I tend to practice one at least every third flught or so.
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Agilekhan,
Only ever put in enough rudder TO PREVENT FURTHER YAW.
You are not picking up the wing, you are stopping the yaw.
Stall,
Simultaneously lower the nose sufficient to unstall the wings (usually a release of the back pressure is sufficient) and increase power
Rudder to orevent further yaw
When the wings are unstalked, level the wings WITH AILERON
Recover from dive.
Stalls are not scary, go a d practice with an instructor, then practice by yourself. I tend to practice one at least every third flught or so.
Only ever put in enough rudder TO PREVENT FURTHER YAW.
You are not picking up the wing, you are stopping the yaw.
Stall,
Simultaneously lower the nose sufficient to unstall the wings (usually a release of the back pressure is sufficient) and increase power
Rudder to orevent further yaw
When the wings are unstalked, level the wings WITH AILERON
Recover from dive.
Stalls are not scary, go a d practice with an instructor, then practice by yourself. I tend to practice one at least every third flught or so.
I was pointing to the fact that the doomed Brumby had a history of a problematic rudder could this have contributed to a crash during a botched stall recovery manoeuvre?