Listen to Dick Smith and you WILL lose everything
Progressive
The sticker idea is good but it won't work as every one I know in GA is too busy fighting amongst them selves.
Charter has forever changed. The day when a Sydney Melbourne airfare became $69 and the airlines actually started to operate better and more customer friendly services was the death knell for a lot of GA charter.
A good example is Coffs Harbour, now extremely well serviced. In the late 80's and earlier 90's we use to operate a C550 and would get charters to Coffs Harbour and Coolangatta regularly: now probably very little goes into Coffs as a charter.
The except to this are companies like Wingaway. Here the state government has centralised medical services to Sydney and these type of GA companies benefit.
Take the Aerial Survey business, remote Cherokee Warrier size drone will and are taking over what was a very good employer of GA.
Even in my own field, Air Cruising product it has become very difficult. The reason simply older people are now travelling to Europe and doing a Rhine cruise for around $6000 all up.
Put simply it is change, like an electric typewriter was replace with a lap top so too our industry is under going a metaporphos.
There is no answer, simply those of us that are left in the Industry need to be more business savvy, adapt to the changes, and create new opportunities.
A perfect example is the Skydiving company that went public a well run market driven company that seems to be profitable.
Aerodromes such as Bankstown suffer, partly due to ownership, but also due to those left having total apathy to each other.
A perfect idea would be to hold an open day Air Show where every business supports the idea. It could be run by one of the local Rotary Clubs for the benefit of local charities and give each business some exposure.
But it will never happen.
The sticker idea is good but it won't work as every one I know in GA is too busy fighting amongst them selves.
Charter has forever changed. The day when a Sydney Melbourne airfare became $69 and the airlines actually started to operate better and more customer friendly services was the death knell for a lot of GA charter.
A good example is Coffs Harbour, now extremely well serviced. In the late 80's and earlier 90's we use to operate a C550 and would get charters to Coffs Harbour and Coolangatta regularly: now probably very little goes into Coffs as a charter.
The except to this are companies like Wingaway. Here the state government has centralised medical services to Sydney and these type of GA companies benefit.
Take the Aerial Survey business, remote Cherokee Warrier size drone will and are taking over what was a very good employer of GA.
Even in my own field, Air Cruising product it has become very difficult. The reason simply older people are now travelling to Europe and doing a Rhine cruise for around $6000 all up.
Put simply it is change, like an electric typewriter was replace with a lap top so too our industry is under going a metaporphos.
There is no answer, simply those of us that are left in the Industry need to be more business savvy, adapt to the changes, and create new opportunities.
A perfect example is the Skydiving company that went public a well run market driven company that seems to be profitable.
Aerodromes such as Bankstown suffer, partly due to ownership, but also due to those left having total apathy to each other.
A perfect idea would be to hold an open day Air Show where every business supports the idea. It could be run by one of the local Rotary Clubs for the benefit of local charities and give each business some exposure.
But it will never happen.
GA is certainly changing rapidly. But, I suspect that it has a lot to do with the decline of regional Australia. There just isn't the traffic going to country towns anymore. And the freeway structure is better and cars are better. Destinations where it was clearly more efficient to fly are now better done by driving.
And bank runs are dying. And freight is more commonly done overnight by road.
And a chunk of the traditional charter in things like Navajo's is now done in subcontracted private jets.
Skydiving is a good example of developing a product that appeals to a market the aircraft facilitate. But people sign up for the experience, not the flight. Too much of the GA debate focuses on aircraft as the end, not the means that facilitate another purpose.
A revival in GA requires a new vision.
But I disagree about a public campaign. The public don't care. GA is irrelevant to 95% of the public. It could go away and not many people would care.
But that doesn't change the fact that CASA is a dysfunctional organisation that is not fulfilling its charter. 3 decades or more ago Dick Smith got focus on CASA's predecessor with his book "Two years in the Aviation Hall of Doom" 2 decades ago Boyd Munro achieved real leverage via " Air Safety Australia". Bugger all has been achieved since.
Australia has a system of government that only reacts to pressure points and only consults with peak bodies. The AOPA is doping GA a large disservice because while it is recognised by Canberra as the peak body for general aviation, the government will not pay attention to other groups.
The best thing GA could do is get an aggressive, agitating, lobbying peak body.
At the moment GA's best friend is the senate estimates committees via senators like Xenephon, Fawcett, Nash, O'Sullivan and a small number of others. They seem to be the only ones making any attempt to make Skidmore and other senior regulators accountable. They are briefed by a shadowy group of anonymous industry figures. They should be briefed by an industry representative body.
And bank runs are dying. And freight is more commonly done overnight by road.
And a chunk of the traditional charter in things like Navajo's is now done in subcontracted private jets.
Skydiving is a good example of developing a product that appeals to a market the aircraft facilitate. But people sign up for the experience, not the flight. Too much of the GA debate focuses on aircraft as the end, not the means that facilitate another purpose.
A revival in GA requires a new vision.
But I disagree about a public campaign. The public don't care. GA is irrelevant to 95% of the public. It could go away and not many people would care.
But that doesn't change the fact that CASA is a dysfunctional organisation that is not fulfilling its charter. 3 decades or more ago Dick Smith got focus on CASA's predecessor with his book "Two years in the Aviation Hall of Doom" 2 decades ago Boyd Munro achieved real leverage via " Air Safety Australia". Bugger all has been achieved since.
Australia has a system of government that only reacts to pressure points and only consults with peak bodies. The AOPA is doping GA a large disservice because while it is recognised by Canberra as the peak body for general aviation, the government will not pay attention to other groups.
The best thing GA could do is get an aggressive, agitating, lobbying peak body.
At the moment GA's best friend is the senate estimates committees via senators like Xenephon, Fawcett, Nash, O'Sullivan and a small number of others. They seem to be the only ones making any attempt to make Skidmore and other senior regulators accountable. They are briefed by a shadowy group of anonymous industry figures. They should be briefed by an industry representative body.
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Jeezus, AOTW, post #10, you just gave away the code-word to activate the sleepers! Weren't you debriefed when you left?? Seriously man, this is totally confidential information!
In addition, our RAAF spaceships that are currently orbiting the planet, in order to fulfill their highly sensitive mission to beam down more moles in to CASA and AsA, have now been compromised by your dumb-ass revelation of the password on a public forum.
God, you prize dunce! I will now have to secretly creep out, once the sun goes down, burn my uckers board, and eat the ash! I have removed the photos!
Dick is on to us!
In addition, our RAAF spaceships that are currently orbiting the planet, in order to fulfill their highly sensitive mission to beam down more moles in to CASA and AsA, have now been compromised by your dumb-ass revelation of the password on a public forum.
God, you prize dunce! I will now have to secretly creep out, once the sun goes down, burn my uckers board, and eat the ash! I have removed the photos!
Dick is on to us!
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So lets get together and organise!!
I've heard some really good ideas and some ideas that could use a little polishing.
But either way people have started to exchange ideas. The next step is to organise and I really believe we have some passionate people on here. All we need to do is sort out the men(woman) from the boys(girls). We need to sort out who are just the complainers and who are the people who are really interested in starting a movement that can affect real change.
I believe we can start a group on facebook or something similar that will get the ball rolling and get this discussion out of the pilot forum and start to move this into the public realm.
Progressive, akro, pinky the pilot and dhavillilland pilot have all brought either constructive suggestions and solutions. This my friends is a coalescing of of minds and ideas. As the people above mentioned our peak body has not being doing anything in the public sphere and most likely not much behind the scenes either.
If we can put names and faces to this cause i think it will be the first step in a worthwhile battle. A battle that won't be won today or tomorrow. But as progressive said. If we can get the right people elected this year to parliament then maybe, just maybe we can reduce the regulation and cost to industry and the private pilot. Because as dick said, GA is dying. Now some of you think of charter operators and RFDS when thinking about GA.
I think about the man on the street who wants to buy or hire a 172 and go fly to Tumut from Bankstown to go for a fly-in. I think of the lady that wants to take her friends up from Barwon Heads to the Yarra valley for a hens weekend. I think of the many people who are now moving from places like archerfield and parafield to places like Rylstone air park because of the sense of camaraderie and because the prices are cheaper.
But people should only be making the move to places like this by choice and not because they are being forced out by the prices of parking your pride and joy on the grass at Bankstown which are now being sold off bit by bit to developers.
Let's start a real group of changers and believers on Facebook. Can anybody start us off with a group name?
But either way people have started to exchange ideas. The next step is to organise and I really believe we have some passionate people on here. All we need to do is sort out the men(woman) from the boys(girls). We need to sort out who are just the complainers and who are the people who are really interested in starting a movement that can affect real change.
I believe we can start a group on facebook or something similar that will get the ball rolling and get this discussion out of the pilot forum and start to move this into the public realm.
Progressive, akro, pinky the pilot and dhavillilland pilot have all brought either constructive suggestions and solutions. This my friends is a coalescing of of minds and ideas. As the people above mentioned our peak body has not being doing anything in the public sphere and most likely not much behind the scenes either.
If we can put names and faces to this cause i think it will be the first step in a worthwhile battle. A battle that won't be won today or tomorrow. But as progressive said. If we can get the right people elected this year to parliament then maybe, just maybe we can reduce the regulation and cost to industry and the private pilot. Because as dick said, GA is dying. Now some of you think of charter operators and RFDS when thinking about GA.
I think about the man on the street who wants to buy or hire a 172 and go fly to Tumut from Bankstown to go for a fly-in. I think of the lady that wants to take her friends up from Barwon Heads to the Yarra valley for a hens weekend. I think of the many people who are now moving from places like archerfield and parafield to places like Rylstone air park because of the sense of camaraderie and because the prices are cheaper.
But people should only be making the move to places like this by choice and not because they are being forced out by the prices of parking your pride and joy on the grass at Bankstown which are now being sold off bit by bit to developers.
Let's start a real group of changers and believers on Facebook. Can anybody start us off with a group name?
Dehav. I pretty well agree with what you are saying however there is tremendous potential for Australia to become a world leader in flight training and recreational aviation. By that I mean bringing people from overseas to spend their money here. Tens if not hundreds of millions of export equivalent money could be earned and retained in Australia .
For that you need a plan. The Coalition aviation policy for the election before last had this policy ( I was involved in writing it) however it was removed from the policy before the last election. Very strange!
Also if we copied the best from around the world- that is the lowest cost way of ensuring the required levels of safety- we would get a lift again in GA.
But no hope at the moment as there is not one person in CASA or AsA that pushes the fact that costs have to be reduced. In fact just the opposite as new ADSB mandates come in
For that you need a plan. The Coalition aviation policy for the election before last had this policy ( I was involved in writing it) however it was removed from the policy before the last election. Very strange!
Also if we copied the best from around the world- that is the lowest cost way of ensuring the required levels of safety- we would get a lift again in GA.
But no hope at the moment as there is not one person in CASA or AsA that pushes the fact that costs have to be reduced. In fact just the opposite as new ADSB mandates come in
RAAF spaceships that are currently orbiting the planet, in order to fulfill their highly sensitive mission to beam down more moles in to CASA and AsA
OK OK you've stretched the point a bit too far dick.
Re ' not just the existing amateurish 1930s Flight Service " do it yourself system"
I really do find this offensive. I am not offensive to you. Do I call you 'amateurish' even though you may not be a 'professional' pilot'?
The current 'system' may well be of your 1930's vintage / quality, but,
"FLIGHT SERVICE" it is NOT!!
And, I still remember the letter you sent to the Chief ATC wallah at SY back in the day you were 'delayed' on the ground at BK awaiting your clearance in your very expensive to operate jet, for Canberra, and you were very 'happy' to let him know in no uncertain manner that instead of awaiting for 'his' Controlled Airspace, you were pleased to proceed OCTA and got a 'wonderful service from Flight Service' with NO delays...etc etc
Now, I realise you were only sending this letter to 'pee him off' , not to 'praise good ole FS' - just for them doing their job.
But 'Flight Service' was and always will be, regarded as a 'Professional Service' bound (unfortunately) by the rules and regs of the time!
Quite a few FSO's were Commercial Licence holders, me included, and provided the service in a 'professional manner' according to those 'rules' of the time.
We did not make those rules, but as Public Service employees we had to abide by them.
YOU KNOW THAT.
An apology would be nice.....
Griffo
Re ' not just the existing amateurish 1930s Flight Service " do it yourself system"
I really do find this offensive. I am not offensive to you. Do I call you 'amateurish' even though you may not be a 'professional' pilot'?
The current 'system' may well be of your 1930's vintage / quality, but,
"FLIGHT SERVICE" it is NOT!!
And, I still remember the letter you sent to the Chief ATC wallah at SY back in the day you were 'delayed' on the ground at BK awaiting your clearance in your very expensive to operate jet, for Canberra, and you were very 'happy' to let him know in no uncertain manner that instead of awaiting for 'his' Controlled Airspace, you were pleased to proceed OCTA and got a 'wonderful service from Flight Service' with NO delays...etc etc
Now, I realise you were only sending this letter to 'pee him off' , not to 'praise good ole FS' - just for them doing their job.
But 'Flight Service' was and always will be, regarded as a 'Professional Service' bound (unfortunately) by the rules and regs of the time!
Quite a few FSO's were Commercial Licence holders, me included, and provided the service in a 'professional manner' according to those 'rules' of the time.
We did not make those rules, but as Public Service employees we had to abide by them.
YOU KNOW THAT.
An apology would be nice.....
Griffo
Dick
There was a vibrant training programme for overseas students but between CASA and a few greedy operators killed it off. The exchange rate at $AUD 1 = $US1.1 didn't help.
Recently I travelled in a cab to Bankstown, the driver a Lebanese guy who has been in Australia for years told me about a well known training company and what they did to his grandson, a born in Australia citizen.
His grandson paid $90k up front to do a intergrated CPL, Half way thru his course the organisation told him he wouldn't pass and refused to do any more training. When he asked for a refund of the balance not used, they refused.
This is the type of operation that stops International students from coming to Australia.
Yet in other fields we are excelling. I have a friend who is in the Certificate training programme for Senior health care nursing, he is going gang busters with Phillipines nationals coming to study.
A combined approach to flight training for International students with professional marketing, overseen by some sort of authority for the training and funding would probably fit the bill.
After all we keep reading there is going to be a shortage of pilots.
I thought we were the clever country, clever at what? Doing nothing and complaining.
There was a vibrant training programme for overseas students but between CASA and a few greedy operators killed it off. The exchange rate at $AUD 1 = $US1.1 didn't help.
Recently I travelled in a cab to Bankstown, the driver a Lebanese guy who has been in Australia for years told me about a well known training company and what they did to his grandson, a born in Australia citizen.
His grandson paid $90k up front to do a intergrated CPL, Half way thru his course the organisation told him he wouldn't pass and refused to do any more training. When he asked for a refund of the balance not used, they refused.
This is the type of operation that stops International students from coming to Australia.
Yet in other fields we are excelling. I have a friend who is in the Certificate training programme for Senior health care nursing, he is going gang busters with Phillipines nationals coming to study.
A combined approach to flight training for International students with professional marketing, overseen by some sort of authority for the training and funding would probably fit the bill.
After all we keep reading there is going to be a shortage of pilots.
I thought we were the clever country, clever at what? Doing nothing and complaining.
An apology would be nice.....
While Dick may have good intentions, unfortunately his manner of going about it puts a lot of people offside.
It's pleasing to see the high number of "amateurs" from Flight Service providing a professional service in ATC.
Some of the sectors already have a workload that would allow the safer and more professional service at no cost increase.
What about the many sectors that don't? If you increase the controller workload, wouldn't things get less safe? Or would you just employ more ATC, increasing costs, which the industry does not want.
From AsA's site: 1000 ATC handling 4,000,000 flts a year (11000 per day) - 1 ATC for 11 flts/day
From FAA's site: 15000 ATC handling 87000 flts per day - 1 ATC for 5.8 flts/day
So you could argue that our guys already handle twice the traffic per head than the US ones do. Maybe they have enough to do now. Maybe if we doubled ATC numbers (at no cost of course) so that handling levels were comparable, you could get a similar service, because it seems that's how many are needed to provide it. I'm sure if the FAA could get away with needing only 7500 ATC they would.
Thankyou Mr TD,
Yes, there are many in the present ATC - previously known to 'us' as 'The Dark Side', who are ex FSO's.
Still Professionals. (Note... the Capital 'P', dick)
They chose to go to ML Centre or BN Centre as required, for the continuation of their careers.
And GOOD LUCK to them for doing so, and for continuing to provide the Professional Service, for which they are employed.
Thanks
Yes, there are many in the present ATC - previously known to 'us' as 'The Dark Side', who are ex FSO's.
Still Professionals. (Note... the Capital 'P', dick)
They chose to go to ML Centre or BN Centre as required, for the continuation of their careers.
And GOOD LUCK to them for doing so, and for continuing to provide the Professional Service, for which they are employed.
Thanks
Griffo. I apologise to you and other Flight Service officers who may have been offended by my comments.
I realise that you always followed the rules as set by the bosses at the time.
In modern times I would prefer a full ATC separation service when I am in the terminal area in IMC at places like Ballina.
If the USA can afford to give this clearly safer service at every non tower airport with an instrument approach surely we can do it at one or two!
Why pay for air traffic controllers when flying IFR in IMC if they don't even provide a control service?
I realise that you always followed the rules as set by the bosses at the time.
In modern times I would prefer a full ATC separation service when I am in the terminal area in IMC at places like Ballina.
If the USA can afford to give this clearly safer service at every non tower airport with an instrument approach surely we can do it at one or two!
Why pay for air traffic controllers when flying IFR in IMC if they don't even provide a control service?
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I've been a commercial pilot and flown worldwide for over 40 yrs with 27000 hrs . Unfortuanately Dick is dead right.
Have you recently made application for anything. We are being buried in created paper work. What did president Regan say about the most frightening thing a businessman could hear "we are from the government and here to help " or our own Ex PM Keating "give a dog a bone and he'll bury it give a public servant 50 billion and he'll spend it"
Have you recently made application for anything. We are being buried in created paper work. What did president Regan say about the most frightening thing a businessman could hear "we are from the government and here to help " or our own Ex PM Keating "give a dog a bone and he'll bury it give a public servant 50 billion and he'll spend it"
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The picture is far wider than just businesses.....
Of course the GA industry is falling apart. We still fly aeroplanes from the 1970's and earlier. The most common engines have barley changed from the 1950's! If that is not indicative of the GA industry as a whole I'm am buggerd if I know what is. Yes, GA needs to adapt to the changes, but it is my thinking that the WHOLE industry needs a shift - and I think that will actually happen. For some, that wont happen soon enough, and when it does, it will be to rapid for others. Fun times inbound.
Well Mr 2EO,
Its oft been said that 'the only replacement for a DC-3 is another DC-3.'
At the mo, a group in which I have an interest, have commenced 'discussion' about a suitable modern replacement for a C-172RG.
The present machine is performing well, and is 'up to date' with all SIDS etc, however it is still as you define.....
But, it would appear at 'first brush', presently, the only replacement for a good C-172RG, is another C-172RG...??
Any suggestions?
Cheers
Its oft been said that 'the only replacement for a DC-3 is another DC-3.'
At the mo, a group in which I have an interest, have commenced 'discussion' about a suitable modern replacement for a C-172RG.
The present machine is performing well, and is 'up to date' with all SIDS etc, however it is still as you define.....
But, it would appear at 'first brush', presently, the only replacement for a good C-172RG, is another C-172RG...??
Any suggestions?
Cheers
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Exactly my point. There are sadly very few options. Hence my comment that it requires a shift on ALL fronts of GA. If GA demands new and more efficient aircraft, they will be developed. Unfortunately just not overnight. There will be much more pain in the industry, but as the industry, we have to force that change now so that that period passes as quickly as possible. I believe that on many levels, that is beginning, some of the aircraft designs and engines beggar belief now.
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