VFR Into IMC Training?
My point is that we should be looking into defence mechanisms to help prevent VFR pilots getting into IMC. I would be somewhat very surprised if some VFR pilots are keeping their IF scan current using simulators based on an expectation that they may end going IMC. If this is the case, they need to seriously consider getting an instrument rating.
I have had two very good mates killed in two seperate CFIT accidents, and also had the displeasure of being involved in a number of onsite fatal accident investigations where the sights and smells were terrible. Hence I'm pretty passionate about doing everything to prevent these kind of tragedies given my personal experiences.
I have had two very good mates killed in two seperate CFIT accidents, and also had the displeasure of being involved in a number of onsite fatal accident investigations where the sights and smells were terrible. Hence I'm pretty passionate about doing everything to prevent these kind of tragedies given my personal experiences.
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My point is that we should be looking into defence mechanisms to help prevent VFR pilots getting into IMC.
For years and years, CASA and all the other names CASA were before CASA, have published hundreds of pages of very good advice to these people who in the end got killed in IMC when they thought they could just get through a bit of mist and low cloud to fine weather on the other side. All the fine words in the world will not prevent these sort of accidents. Some pilots are wise and see trouble coming as the clouds close in, and they quickly decide to turn back - or better still they don't depart if the forecast gives marginal VMC.
Others blast off and think it won't happen to me. Like hoon drivers they think it won't happen to me. Most car P Platers think exactly the same way. It is human nature. That is why IMHO, instrument flying to a competent standard should be as vital to PPL training as are practice forced landings. Someone mentioned accent on FTD in early training. Best idea ever if VFR into IMC accidents are to be minimised. Minimised, because you will never fully eradicate these sort of accidents.
Some of you guys need to visit an accident site where the sights and smells aren't pleasant and only then will your views change, well maybe.
I'm sure anyone who works for the ATSB or our emergency services who are tasked to pick up the pieces as a result of tragic events would all agree with me........
Justify your first opinion Sheppy, what you have stated isn't an answer, it's just an opinion based on history.
I'm sure anyone who works for the ATSB or our emergency services who are tasked to pick up the pieces as a result of tragic events would all agree with me........
Justify your first opinion Sheppy, what you have stated isn't an answer, it's just an opinion based on history.
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I can not help but think that maybe this 178 seconds is a bit of a misnomer.
If I asked here how many people have had VFR into IMC experiences when they weren't qualified for IMC conditions and walked away to tell the tale, you might find that the number is very high.
This includes flying through a hole and accidentally hitting cloud before breaking through the top.... seeing blue sky above the cloud and thinking it might be easy just to punch up there because it's not that thick... flying too close to the cloud up from under it and ending up in it... not finding a hole and descending through the cloud.
I would make an educated guess based on my knowledge and having spoken to many pilots over the years that the instances of survival far outweigh the opposite.
If I asked here how many people have had VFR into IMC experiences when they weren't qualified for IMC conditions and walked away to tell the tale, you might find that the number is very high.
This includes flying through a hole and accidentally hitting cloud before breaking through the top.... seeing blue sky above the cloud and thinking it might be easy just to punch up there because it's not that thick... flying too close to the cloud up from under it and ending up in it... not finding a hole and descending through the cloud.
I would make an educated guess based on my knowledge and having spoken to many pilots over the years that the instances of survival far outweigh the opposite.
My assumption is that the busting through a bit of cloud takes no skill at all. You are not actually flying in IMC, rather the flight path vector takes the plane through the cloud before turbulence and pilot input have any real effect on its overall stability.
If however the pilot spends a minute busting through a patch and is bounced around a fair bit and decides to turn back to get out of the cloud, that is when they need good instrument skills (and not panic) or they will ultimately prove the 178 seconds theory.
I am pretty sure 178 seconds was an average time, some took a lot longer to lose it and some a lot less. Who cares. If you are not current and competent you may be just as dead in however many seconds.
I should have also mentioned those VFR pilots with auto-pilots whom set and forget and enjoy the ride. You'd be surprised how many of these are out there now as this kind of gear becomes more affordable to the average man, be they GA or RAA. It is my understanding that a recent fatality fell into this category of attempting to use auto-pilot to blast off into IMC when neither the pilot was trained or aircraft were legally equipped for IMC conditions.
All these weasel words about `Defence Mechanisms` and `Tools`, are nothing but Mumbo Jumbo.
instrument flying to a competent standard should be as vital to PPL training as are practice forced landings.
So I don't agree that extra training at the PPL level will stop these type of accidents occurring. I do agree that they will continue to occur but the aim should be to reduce them to a level that is as low as reasonably possible. The current method of just highlighting the accidents that have occurred doesn't work on changing the stats. A new approach is needed and I still think that should include training on decision making and other NTS both during the PPL training and afterwards.
Thread Starter
Lookleft: my point, and that of some others, is that VFR pilots should have enough real experience of flight into IMC to:
(1) correctly identify a looming IMC situation developing BEFORE entering IMC, and,
(2) having identified the hazard, take immediate avoiding action.
Anecdotal evidence suggests to me that having the alleged intellectual tools to rationalise the situation, coupled with rarely practiced foggle or simulator training and perhaps an autopilot, leads one to the false belief that you can cope with IMC when it happenS to you.
(1) correctly identify a looming IMC situation developing BEFORE entering IMC, and,
(2) having identified the hazard, take immediate avoiding action.
Anecdotal evidence suggests to me that having the alleged intellectual tools to rationalise the situation, coupled with rarely practiced foggle or simulator training and perhaps an autopilot, leads one to the false belief that you can cope with IMC when it happenS to you.
If you want real experience get an IFR rating. Its the only way you are going to deal with IMC when it happens to you. What are you proposing Sunfish, 6 hours, 10 hours? 5 years or 10 years down the track it is not going to help you. However constant refreshing of the NTS skills that can be taught and practised at all stages and on every flight may help you avoid the looming IMC in the first place. Each weather experience is different, there is no one size fits all. Even as an IFR pilot there have been some days when I have said no. What are my credentials? 18,000 hours and have had a Grade 1 instructor rating with Mutli-engine and IFR training approval. I am not saying I am FIGJAM but I do know Sunny that you like to trot out your credentials to give your statements credibility.
Or to put that another way. I know what I am talking about.
Or to put that another way. I know what I am talking about.
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What are my credentials? 18,000 hours and have had a Grade 1 instructor rating with Mutli-engine and IFR training approval.
For most of us, our opinions are founded in our experiences!
That being the case, many who have posted in here appear to have had vastly different aviation experiences from mine!
I learned to fly in the 70's when we did 3 hrs IF for the Restricted PPL and a further 2 hrs IF for the Unrestricted PPL.
As a 100+ hr PPL I flew myself into IMC! I thought I was descending into a cloud layer that was only a few hundred feet thick as that appeared to be the case as I passed the edge of it in VMC on top - it wasn't! Down I went expecting to break out any second - I didn't!
I wasn't just riding along as a pseudo pax with the AP doing the work - I was hand flying a C172 with no AP.
The urge to keep going down was great as I had to break out, right? At least I had the presence of mind to look at the WAC chart and decide that I would descend to 1000' above the highest point in the area and I made a decision that I would climb back out of it if I didn't break out by my calculated MDA.
That's what happened, I climbed back out to VMC on top, did a 180 and flew back to the edge of the cloud bank. I was right! It was only a few hundred feet thick - for a couple of miles and then it went right down to the trees!
All up I spent about 20 min in IMC.
Did I at any point think I might die - No!
Did I scare the **** out of myself - Yep!
Did the IF training I did for my PPL save my life - ABSOLUTELY!
Dr
That being the case, many who have posted in here appear to have had vastly different aviation experiences from mine!
I learned to fly in the 70's when we did 3 hrs IF for the Restricted PPL and a further 2 hrs IF for the Unrestricted PPL.
As a 100+ hr PPL I flew myself into IMC! I thought I was descending into a cloud layer that was only a few hundred feet thick as that appeared to be the case as I passed the edge of it in VMC on top - it wasn't! Down I went expecting to break out any second - I didn't!
I wasn't just riding along as a pseudo pax with the AP doing the work - I was hand flying a C172 with no AP.
The urge to keep going down was great as I had to break out, right? At least I had the presence of mind to look at the WAC chart and decide that I would descend to 1000' above the highest point in the area and I made a decision that I would climb back out of it if I didn't break out by my calculated MDA.
That's what happened, I climbed back out to VMC on top, did a 180 and flew back to the edge of the cloud bank. I was right! It was only a few hundred feet thick - for a couple of miles and then it went right down to the trees!
All up I spent about 20 min in IMC.
Did I at any point think I might die - No!
Did I scare the **** out of myself - Yep!
Did the IF training I did for my PPL save my life - ABSOLUTELY!
Dr
Well done FTDK but I think you might be that small cohort of pilots who have gotten away with it. The crash comics from the 70's until now are full of PPLs who had the same training, did the same thing and did not survive. Like I said there is no one size fits all for the type of weather that people encounter.
Well done FTDK but I think you might be that small cohort of pilots who have gotten away with it. The crash comics from the 70's until now are full of PPLs who had the same training, did the same thing and did not survive. Like I said there is no one size fits all for the type of weather that people encounter.
I have read all of the crash comics from 1972 to about 5 yrs ago when I stopped reading the crap publication that replaced the original Crash Comic. My recollection is that while their are lots of stories about controlled flight into terrain by VFR pilots in IMC, I don't recall too many stories about VFR pilots losing control of the aeroplane in IMC.
I do recall one story about a VFR pilot who, having realised he had screwed up badly, held his C172 in a controlled descent in IMC until he flopped it onto the tree tops in the hills behind the Gold Coast. He and his pax walked away from the wreck.
Dr
So what you are saying is that most VFR pilots who encounter IMC actually get away with it and live to fly another day because of the 5 hours of IF training they received during their PPL training? Then you go on to say that the pilots who didn't survive actually were controlling their aircraft but just run out of altitude? Extraordinary deduction. Strange how the stupid ones always seem to be descending rather than attempting to climb their way out of trouble. You might like to share your wisdom with the NTSB and the FAA because they also have a continuing problem with VFR pilots flying into IMC and killing themselves and their passengers.
So what you are saying is that most VFR pilots who encounter IMC actually get away with it and live to fly another day because of the 5 hours of IF training they received during their PPL training?
Full panel basic IF is not hard - its mostly mind over matter. If you fly into cloud and think "Oh **** I'm gonna die", you probably will.
The reason the old crash comic was so good was you could read about the unfortunate mistakes that others had made and ask yourself, "What would I do" and develop a mental plan or plans for such a senario.
What are my bonafides? I survived 10 years of scud running in Australia and NZ before I got my IR!
Full panel basic IF is not hard - its mostly mind over matter
By sheer coincidence I just talked today with an acquaintance who is friends with a bloke who was fishing in the waters and saw that Cherokee hit the sea 150 metres away from him, nose down and 90 degrees angle of bank. He said it was foggy with very low visibility. Bits soon came to the surface of the sea followed by two deceased. Makes the highlighted quote look a bit sorry
FTDK, touché!
As I said earlier, I suspect the number of a VFR pilots regularly in IMC far exceeds the number that are spudding in.
As I said earlier, I suspect the number of a VFR pilots regularly in IMC far exceeds the number that are spudding in.
Thread Starter
I am not making myself clear. I am not advocating training in flying IMC or IFR. I am advocating the same cautionary experience that currently pertains to spinning - a demonstration of exactly how dangerous flying into IMC is going to be for someone who is not Instrument rated and current.
Leadsled apparently already practices what i am proposing and has achieved the desired outcome - a healthy respect for IMC that cannot be intellectualised away and that no amount of "get there-itis" can overcome:
If I had to change Leadys post at all it would be to add the words "for them" in the sense that "this is what is going to happen to you, personally, if you fly into IMC.". I say this because in my opinion, under pressure to go to some place or get home, pilots press on when they should not, by intellectualising away the risks - "anyway, thanks to my foggles training I can always turn around in the cloud and get straight back out".
In my own very limited experience I was once returning to Melbourne from the North in deteriorating weather. The Kilmore Gap looked closed to me when I reached my decision point at Mangalore. I diverted to Bendigo after making sure that I could still head back to Swan Hill or Benalla if necessary and on the way was confronted with rain, decreasing visibility and a decreasing ceiling that was barely just 1000ft AGL as I made Bendigo and landed. I was just VFR at Bendigo. Not to put to fine a point on it, I was ****ting myself. AFter an hour or so on the ground the rain stopped, the ceiling lifted to about 1500 - 2000 and we made our way home via Ballarat and into the Melbourne basin via the You Yangs. If I had pushed on instead of landing, I would have been a statistic either near Kilmore or Ballarat.
Leadsled apparently already practices what i am proposing and has achieved the desired outcome - a healthy respect for IMC that cannot be intellectualised away and that no amount of "get there-itis" can overcome:
Accordingly, at the end of training, I have always taken my students into real IMC, always a bit of fair weather slightly bumpy Cu.
This is where 178 Seconds to Live is wrong. I have always timed "Handing over" to loss of control, the best was around one minute, usually less.
So you are effectively dead when you lose control, the balance of 178 seconds is only the time it takes to hit the ground.
Having had the opportunity, during training, to spin/spiral out of control in IMC, none of my many students has ever had a VMC into IMC accident.
Several have landed in paddocks when that was the alternative, because they already knew, in advance, what the outcome of flying into IMC would be.
They created a job for the insurance adjuster, not the Coroner. Incontestably a better outcome.
This is where 178 Seconds to Live is wrong. I have always timed "Handing over" to loss of control, the best was around one minute, usually less.
So you are effectively dead when you lose control, the balance of 178 seconds is only the time it takes to hit the ground.
Having had the opportunity, during training, to spin/spiral out of control in IMC, none of my many students has ever had a VMC into IMC accident.
Several have landed in paddocks when that was the alternative, because they already knew, in advance, what the outcome of flying into IMC would be.
They created a job for the insurance adjuster, not the Coroner. Incontestably a better outcome.
In my own very limited experience I was once returning to Melbourne from the North in deteriorating weather. The Kilmore Gap looked closed to me when I reached my decision point at Mangalore. I diverted to Bendigo after making sure that I could still head back to Swan Hill or Benalla if necessary and on the way was confronted with rain, decreasing visibility and a decreasing ceiling that was barely just 1000ft AGL as I made Bendigo and landed. I was just VFR at Bendigo. Not to put to fine a point on it, I was ****ting myself. AFter an hour or so on the ground the rain stopped, the ceiling lifted to about 1500 - 2000 and we made our way home via Ballarat and into the Melbourne basin via the You Yangs. If I had pushed on instead of landing, I would have been a statistic either near Kilmore or Ballarat.
Last edited by Sunfish; 3rd Feb 2016 at 20:50.
I take your point Sunny and there is value in asking an instructor (with IFR qualifications) to take you up and expose you to actual IFR. I suspect that many would see it as a waste of money.
I couldn't help but notice in your story that it was your decisions and therefore your decision making processes that led you out of trouble. I have no idea how these skills were developed, you possibly have developed them through your other experiences in the work place and through sailing. They are not intuitive to all but they are the sort of skills that can be taught, trained and practised. Its not a case of intellectualising the situation but being taught and then developing the Non-Technical Skills that can help get you out of a situation like you found yourself in.
If the prevailing attitude is "I got away with it so others can" or "Everyone does it, its not that bad" or the classic "Its mind over matter" (like human physiology has nothing to do with IF) then its just a case of nothing to see here move along and just let Darwin take care of the rest.
I couldn't help but notice in your story that it was your decisions and therefore your decision making processes that led you out of trouble. I have no idea how these skills were developed, you possibly have developed them through your other experiences in the work place and through sailing. They are not intuitive to all but they are the sort of skills that can be taught, trained and practised. Its not a case of intellectualising the situation but being taught and then developing the Non-Technical Skills that can help get you out of a situation like you found yourself in.
If the prevailing attitude is "I got away with it so others can" or "Everyone does it, its not that bad" or the classic "Its mind over matter" (like human physiology has nothing to do with IF) then its just a case of nothing to see here move along and just let Darwin take care of the rest.
FTDK said: Full panel basic IF is not hard - its mostly mind over matter.
LookLeft said: If the prevailing attitude is "I got away with it so others can" or "Everyone does it, its not that bad" or the classic "Its mind over matter"... just let Darwin take care of the rest