VFR Into IMC Training?
The mitigating factor there is that VFR aircraft shouldn't be in cloud (and most particularly ones without radios shouldn't be scud running), and when IFR aircraft get visual they should look out the window.
This doesn't preclude conflictions, I know, but if there's a better alternative practically available, let's hear it (Leadsled?).
This doesn't preclude conflictions, I know, but if there's a better alternative practically available, let's hear it (Leadsled?).
Any chance of a straight answer to a couple of direct questions, Leadsled?
What do you do to ensure separation (notwithstanding the legality or otherwise) when IMC in Class G and there is other IFR traffic about?
What is your suggested practical alternative method for IFR aircraft to separate themselves in Class G, if what's currently done isn't acceptable?
I must say that your online manner annoys me, and if your aim is to seriously discuss these issues I think you need to get off your high horse. Cut the rhetoric and just talk plainly.
What do you do to ensure separation (notwithstanding the legality or otherwise) when IMC in Class G and there is other IFR traffic about?
What is your suggested practical alternative method for IFR aircraft to separate themselves in Class G, if what's currently done isn't acceptable?
I must say that your online manner annoys me, and if your aim is to seriously discuss these issues I think you need to get off your high horse. Cut the rhetoric and just talk plainly.
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The handful of hours in basic training is just enough that the result is probably worse than none at all, hence all my ab nitio students spinning/spiraling out of cloud.
And, by the way, there is absolutely no legal basis for the highly dangerous "pilot arranged separation" or whatever you want to call it, that is common in Australia in G.
Any chance of a straight answer to a couple of direct questions, Leadsled?
Too easy, how about just complying with CAR 166 as appropriate, and the "Rules of the Air" in general, in the full knowledge that it is Class G, with all that that implies.
And, of course, using common sense, which many of you want to dress up as as some kind of "secret pilot's business" called "airmanship".
But never kid yourself that there is any "separation assurance" in Class G airspace. The nonsense I hear coming from cockpits of certain regional carriers absolutely astounds me at times, ignorance broadcast for all to hear. Top of the list is effectively demanding self assumed priority because they are "RPT".
There is one bloke (not a Regional Captain) who is always about 10 miles behind the aeroplane he flies, but he is really a great ace at procedures, regularly making a 10m inbound call entering downwind. All the "boxes" have been ticked, and a complete waste of time for somebody trying to get a handle on the traffic in the area.
Tootle pip!!
To have had none is to have no first hand experience and leaves just anecdotal advice to fall back on.
If you could read and comprehend my previous posts on this thread., ALL my ab nitio student have had first hand experience of what the outcome is going to be if they try IMC without being fully trained and CURRENT.
As a result of my "strategy of positive and effective reinforcement of the underlying core fundamental message",(don'tcha just love b***sh1t bingo) they are all still alive.
Tootle pip!!
And, by the way, there is absolutely no legal basis for the highly dangerous "pilot arranged separation" or whatever you want to call it, that is common in Australia in G.
Too easy, how about just complying with CAR 166 as appropriate, and the "Rules of the Air" in general, in the full knowledge that it is Class G, with all that that implies.
And, of course, using common sense, which many of you want to dress up as as some kind of "secret pilot's business" called "airmanship".
And, of course, using common sense, which many of you want to dress up as as some kind of "secret pilot's business" called "airmanship".
The nonsense I hear coming from cockpits of certain regional carriers absolutely astounds me at times, ignorance broadcast for all to hear. Top of the list is effectively demanding self assumed priority because they are "RPT".
I generally volunteer of give way to RPT cause they are on a schedule and I'm not, but as those who know me can testify, if I got even a hint of an expectation of priority because they are RPT, I would do my best to close the door on that - just to make the point!
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LeadSled,
it is admirable that you go the yards with your students and enforce the folly of entering IMC untrained, however my point is that whilst nothing short of an instrument rating gives proficiency a few hours "under the hood" is not more dangerous than none (your point).
With regards the "self separation", nowhere is it mandated that aviation is about eliminating risk, it is about mitigating it. Otherwise we would all sit in the aircraft at the field and not get airborne. Self separation, when there is no controller is just that, mitigation of risk.
And for every "d*ckhead" you have allegedly have come across in an RPT machine, I bet one could find an equal amount in the GA field, and in fact the ones in RPT in all likelihood came from GA and were d*ckheads there as well.
it is admirable that you go the yards with your students and enforce the folly of entering IMC untrained, however my point is that whilst nothing short of an instrument rating gives proficiency a few hours "under the hood" is not more dangerous than none (your point).
With regards the "self separation", nowhere is it mandated that aviation is about eliminating risk, it is about mitigating it. Otherwise we would all sit in the aircraft at the field and not get airborne. Self separation, when there is no controller is just that, mitigation of risk.
And for every "d*ckhead" you have allegedly have come across in an RPT machine, I bet one could find an equal amount in the GA field, and in fact the ones in RPT in all likelihood came from GA and were d*ckheads there as well.
And for every "d*ckhead" you have allegedly have come across in an RPT machine, I bet one could find an equal amount in the GA field, and in fact the ones in RPT in all likelihood came from GA and were d*ckheads there as well.
On that we can both agree. Frankly, compared to the USA, the behavior of many Australian pilots is seriously lacking --- across a range of attributes.
With regards the "self separation", nowhere is it mandated that aviation is about eliminating risk, it is about mitigating it. Otherwise we would all sit in the aircraft at the field and not get airborne.
Self separation, when there is no controller is just that, mitigation of risk.
Right, so after all that gab, you would just do what we all do. Thanks for the blinding insight, you're an asset to aviation.
You really are not too bright, are you, you read what you want to read, not what is written.
On the contrary, my operation is very different, I will not take part in "mutually arranged separation". Nor is that in any way sanctified by CAR 166. Notify my position and intentions, yes, but no "do-it-yourself" ATC.
It is worth going back to the PCH report of some years ago, one of the better expositions on the poor behavior of particularly "professional" pilots in Australia, versus what would be regarded as minimum risk behavior. Sadly, as a result of commercial pressure, and without any kosher safety case, CAR 166 was amended to "legalise" common practice of Regionals, that are contrary to ICAO Annex II, and normal practice in most of the rest of the world, in which I have flown.
Come to think of it, I wonder if Australia has filed a difference.
Tootle pip!!
On the contrary, my operation is very different, I will not take part in "mutually arranged separation".
"XX traffic, Leadsled, 15 miles west on descent to 5000, inbound, circuit 45 XX"
"Leadsled and XX traffic, ABC departed XX 40 tracking 270 on climb to 7000, will maintain 4000 until past you, request you report passing 10 miles"
"Ah negative, I will not be part of any such illegal separation, you just stay out of my way and we'll all be happy, or I will anyway."
Are you still flying these days Leady or are you talking of experiences from some time ago?
Folks,
Because you have grown up with the the "system" here, you know of and can not even contemplate the idea of another way of doing business, and fight tooth and nail to maintain "the system".
This is, by and large, what has made airspace management reform in Australia almost impossible ( except for piling on greater and greater costs) or, a a former CASA DAS put it, the "Galapagos Effect".
As for responding to "what would I do" theoretical scenarios, forget it, it's a waste of time, no two occasions are the same.
Squark 7700,
Sadly, I haven't noticed what I would call "improvements" in recent times, about the only change is the marked reduction in activity. Am I still flying, yes.
Tootle pip!!
Because you have grown up with the the "system" here, you know of and can not even contemplate the idea of another way of doing business, and fight tooth and nail to maintain "the system".
This is, by and large, what has made airspace management reform in Australia almost impossible ( except for piling on greater and greater costs) or, a a former CASA DAS put it, the "Galapagos Effect".
As for responding to "what would I do" theoretical scenarios, forget it, it's a waste of time, no two occasions are the same.
Squark 7700,
Sadly, I haven't noticed what I would call "improvements" in recent times, about the only change is the marked reduction in activity. Am I still flying, yes.
Tootle pip!!
Just not going to give a straight answer, are you Leadsled?
'Every scenario is different...' , yes, we all know that, but you either participate in the current way of separating IFR to IFR in G airspace, or you have some magical other way of doing it, or you're not doing it at all, which I suspect is the case.
Just lay off the calling people ignorant etc, it just drags what could be a useful discussion down into something less so.
'Every scenario is different...' , yes, we all know that, but you either participate in the current way of separating IFR to IFR in G airspace, or you have some magical other way of doing it, or you're not doing it at all, which I suspect is the case.
Just lay off the calling people ignorant etc, it just drags what could be a useful discussion down into something less so.
Hmmm... perhaps getting back to the thread reason, i.e. VFR into IMC training.
Will the training be suitable for the aircraft the trainee will ultimatly be flying. Ex FSO GRIFFO had a look-see:
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...am-gauges.html
Re, the basic trained VFR pilot being expected to use the radio to attempt to work out where he is just after going IMC may just be the final straw. Jabawocky commented as much in this thread: http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...oute-ycab.html
.
Will the training be suitable for the aircraft the trainee will ultimatly be flying. Ex FSO GRIFFO had a look-see:
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...am-gauges.html
Re, the basic trained VFR pilot being expected to use the radio to attempt to work out where he is just after going IMC may just be the final straw. Jabawocky commented as much in this thread: http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...oute-ycab.html
.
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Glass panels Vs Steam Guages.......both have an AH, both will have a turn and bank indicator, etc, admittedly presented differently, but there all the same.
Regarding the basic trained VFR pilot using his radio just after entering IMC.....perhaps he should work on getting control of the situation, and once there, start expanding his workload.
Regarding the basic trained VFR pilot using his radio just after entering IMC.....perhaps he should work on getting control of the situation, and once there, start expanding his workload.
(and most particularly ones without radios shouldn't be scud running),
I missed this pearler before.
How do radios help scud running. I haven't ever come across any advice on radio phraseology in the AIP, to be used running scuds, and there is phraseology for darned near everything else, about ten (10) times the ICAO recommended phraseology.
Does CASA somewhere recommend scud running only by radio equipped aircraft, or perhaps discourage scud running by non-radio aircraft??
I am absolutely fascinated by this possible development by CASA.
Perhaps CASA Standards are developing criteria for scud running ?? --- they have generally covered the field, how did they miss regulating scud running.
Should be good for 30-40 more pages in Part 91, including MoS competencies for scud running, and advisory material to help you decipher the "plain language" regulation and MoS, and explanatory material to help you interpret the advisory material, plus CASA policy pamphlets to tell you what somebody in CASA thinks the Regulations, MoS, AC and explanatory material actually mean.
This may even be important with ADS-B mandate financially excluding many current IFR aircraft in the future, who will presumably operate VFR.
Has consideration been given to global warming increasing scud running, will the rising sea level and the lowering scud level meet. Of course, if CASA stick to Government regulatory policy, they will have to do a cost/benefit study to mandate carriage of radio by scud runners. If we get the that stage, there will undoubtedly be a FIR for scud running.
Just not going to give a straight answer, are you Leadsled?
Just lay off the calling people ignorant etc,
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 12th Feb 2016 at 05:10.
Just cut the waffle, mate. Do you or don't you fly IFR in IMC in Class G, and if so, how do you arrange to stay clear of other IFR aircraft? Telepathy?
via Square Bear:
Glass panels Vs Steam Guages.......both have an AH, both will have a turn and bank indicator, etc, admittedly presented differently, but there all the same.
Regarding the basic trained VFR pilot using his radio just after entering IMC.....perhaps he should work on getting control of the situation, and once there, start expanding his workload.
Glass panels Vs Steam Guages.......both have an AH, both will have a turn and bank indicator, etc, admittedly presented differently, but there all the same.
Regarding the basic trained VFR pilot using his radio just after entering IMC.....perhaps he should work on getting control of the situation, and once there, start expanding his workload.
When I started flying, spam cans all had much the same six pack. The 152 with a night VFR panel were basicly the same as the 210 or Mooney etc, the private pilot later went to. Those initial IF hours with the instructor making sure yer got the scan process ingrained in the mind were an easy non thinking fallback position when the pressure were on during later solo flight 'adventures'. If there is less pressure to need to think about the scan then the mind is free to think of things like nav and radio.
Walk around the light aircraft parking bay today and you'd likely find as many different panel layouts as there are aircraft. There are also multiple different airframe layouts that can affect the VFR to IMC equation.
Personally, I doubt the benefit of more then an hour or so of actual inflight instructor IF training unless it is in an aircraft that has the same panel layout and airframe as the one the pilot later flys. The onus needs to be on the pilot to self train on the equipment they fly for that one bad day when those rarely thought about basic IF skills are required.
.
Fair point about different panels / layouts, but the basic concept of getting onto whatever attitude instrument you have (be it a TV screen or a steam driven AH), sorting out an appropriate attitude/power combo and then turning onto some safe heading and/or climbing as appropriate, will go a long way in whatever you're flying.
Those tragic automation-dependent airliner accidents where they ride it in without going back to those basics should never happen, and a few hours of having the fundamentals ingrained will never hurt in my book (combined with encouragement of the right mindset and regular practice).
Those tragic automation-dependent airliner accidents where they ride it in without going back to those basics should never happen, and a few hours of having the fundamentals ingrained will never hurt in my book (combined with encouragement of the right mindset and regular practice).