Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
It's a pity that that 'succinct' (
) and 'precise' diatribe makes no mention of fact that 5 bodies are still lying somewhere in the hills.
) and 'precise' diatribe makes no mention of fact that 5 bodies are still lying somewhere in the hills.
I suspect that some search still, more from a morbid fascination than a real need to know.
He had 28 total time in a C210.
I read your post as,
"Prime cause of the accident - RAAF imposed flight planning restrictions that force low time pilots away from the safer low level coastal more direct route and towards the mountains which forced a climb into icing conditions.."
when I should have been obvious to me that you meant,
"Prime cause of the accident - RAAF imposed flight planning restrictions that force low time on an aircraft type, experienced pilots away from the safer low level coastal more direct route and towards the mountains which forced a climb into icing conditions.."
So if the pilot had more experience on the C210 this accident would not have happened? Is that what you are trying to say?
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I am saying that if flight planning and clearance coastal was permitted this accident would have been avoided, the pilot's shortcomings notwith standing
Don't know for sure but was he an "experienced pilot"? You wouldn't be counting aeronautical experience gained as a navigator perchance?
Don't know for sure but was he an "experienced pilot"? You wouldn't be counting aeronautical experience gained as a navigator perchance?
Thread Starter
Andrewr. You have a good point. Remember he did not have DME . How would a pilot remain OCTA in those circumstances ? Remember no GPS moving map in those days.
The wait could have been 5 minutes or 15 or even 20 .
And hardly any lights on the ground near Nabiac where it is estimated he was!
The wait could have been 5 minutes or 15 or even 20 .
And hardly any lights on the ground near Nabiac where it is estimated he was!
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Whaaat!
DICK SMITH - I have never ever been told by an ATC at Williamtown not to take photographs. That would be ridiculous as the Russians take hi definition photographs by satellite of the base all the time.
Nor have I ever hovered near the tower at Williamtown so the whole story is a furphy .
I beg your pardon! I was THAT CONTROLLER! I merely told you what my bosses had asked me to tell a civil aircraft flying low level over the Base - as a courtesy. You could've taken photos, but if we'd have found out, you'd be in gaol!
Good grief - you are demented - dementia and lost the plot. Take that man's medical clearance off him, now!
Nor have I ever hovered near the tower at Williamtown so the whole story is a furphy .
I beg your pardon! I was THAT CONTROLLER! I merely told you what my bosses had asked me to tell a civil aircraft flying low level over the Base - as a courtesy. You could've taken photos, but if we'd have found out, you'd be in gaol!
Good grief - you are demented - dementia and lost the plot. Take that man's medical clearance off him, now!
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I am saying that if flight planning and clearance coastal was permitted this accident would have been avoided, the pilot's shortcomings notwith standing
Don't know for sure but was he an "experienced pilot"? You wouldn't be counting aeronautical experience gained as a navigator perchance?
Don't know for sure but was he an "experienced pilot"? You wouldn't be counting aeronautical experience gained as a navigator perchance?
Did you forget to sign on as "Dick Smith" before you replied?
How many alias's are you using on this thread?
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Channel 7 08 June 2014
https://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-nig...l-geoff-brown/
I'll leave you to decide which is the more measured and sensible response. (and not because I'm ex mil)
As to the TV program, where do they find these people, really?
I'll leave you to decide which is the more measured and sensible response. (and not because I'm ex mil)
As to the TV program, where do they find these people, really?
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Less Dick more balance
A better effort by Channel 7 tonight. They must have realised that the story benefited from less Dick
Last edited by flying-spike; 8th Jun 2014 at 12:51.
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Chanel 7 08JUN14
What a wasted opportunity.
So many adds, so many recaps (because we would all have forgotten what had been said 5 minutes ago). At least they did stick to the mystery of what happened to MDX.
Why didn't Chanel 7 do some research and talk to the people who trek up there every year to take part in the search for VH-MDX (Police, NSW Bushwalkers Association etc) ?
We've got two radar paints, one from Sydney Radar and one from RAAF WLM, we have a fair idea of the weather and the time interval till impact but still can't find a C210.
What chance of we got of finding MH370 somewhere in the Indian Ocean in 4.5 klms of water?
So many adds, so many recaps (because we would all have forgotten what had been said 5 minutes ago). At least they did stick to the mystery of what happened to MDX.
Why didn't Chanel 7 do some research and talk to the people who trek up there every year to take part in the search for VH-MDX (Police, NSW Bushwalkers Association etc) ?
We've got two radar paints, one from Sydney Radar and one from RAAF WLM, we have a fair idea of the weather and the time interval till impact but still can't find a C210.
What chance of we got of finding MH370 somewhere in the Indian Ocean in 4.5 klms of water?
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Part Two Loss of VH-MDX
As pointed out by "flying-spike", the presentation tonight was more about the search for VH-MDX and much less about the efforts of Dick Smith to bring about change to the existing restrictions in relation to Williamtown airspace.
What was immediately apparent was the opening statement by the program presenter that Dick Smith had partially blamed the RAAF for the accident to VH-MDX last week, causing a storm of controversy. Mr Smith did not partially blame the RAAF last week, he said "I hold the military responsible for the loss of MDX, the RAAF sent five people to their death"
Despite what anyone thinks about the restrictions in force regarding Williamtown airspace, any fair minded person would believe, I contend, that Mr Smith was utterly wrong to blame the RAAF for the loss of the aircraft and those on board.
Mr Smith has done many good and generous things for others over a long period of time. He has also been able to build an impressive public image, however Mr Smith is also no novice in the art of "self promotion", which brings me to recall good advice given me by my late father. "Self praise is no recommendation".
I am not party to the real reasons the restrictions are in force regarding Williamtown airspace and I believe there must be good reasons. If Mr Smith believes otherwise it is his right to seek change. What he has no right to do is to denigrate the Australian Military, in this case the RAAF, by unjustly blaming them for an event which we all know was avoidable had other options been taken by the PIC. If on one of his adventures Mr Smith is in need of assistance, which can best be provided by the RAAF, I wonder if he will refuse to accept such assistance from those of whom he is so critical? Only he can answer that question.
What was immediately apparent was the opening statement by the program presenter that Dick Smith had partially blamed the RAAF for the accident to VH-MDX last week, causing a storm of controversy. Mr Smith did not partially blame the RAAF last week, he said "I hold the military responsible for the loss of MDX, the RAAF sent five people to their death"
Despite what anyone thinks about the restrictions in force regarding Williamtown airspace, any fair minded person would believe, I contend, that Mr Smith was utterly wrong to blame the RAAF for the loss of the aircraft and those on board.
Mr Smith has done many good and generous things for others over a long period of time. He has also been able to build an impressive public image, however Mr Smith is also no novice in the art of "self promotion", which brings me to recall good advice given me by my late father. "Self praise is no recommendation".
I am not party to the real reasons the restrictions are in force regarding Williamtown airspace and I believe there must be good reasons. If Mr Smith believes otherwise it is his right to seek change. What he has no right to do is to denigrate the Australian Military, in this case the RAAF, by unjustly blaming them for an event which we all know was avoidable had other options been taken by the PIC. If on one of his adventures Mr Smith is in need of assistance, which can best be provided by the RAAF, I wonder if he will refuse to accept such assistance from those of whom he is so critical? Only he can answer that question.
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And in 2 weeks this thread will be 3 pages back and forgotten. In conclusion:
1. To all the dedicated people who have given their time, blood, sweat and tears to try and give some solace to the families of the missing by continuing your search for VH-MDX over the years: Godspeed and good luck in any continued endeavors.
2. To Dick Smith. Your business acumen was obviously at a competent level, but you've never understood politics. "Any publicity is good publicity" might work when you are dealing with Joe Public, but it certainly doesn't when you are dealing with people who live by their position. Nothing will change in regards to your agenda...not while you are still breathing anyway. This whole thing was ill-considered and a little silly tbh.
1. To all the dedicated people who have given their time, blood, sweat and tears to try and give some solace to the families of the missing by continuing your search for VH-MDX over the years: Godspeed and good luck in any continued endeavors.
2. To Dick Smith. Your business acumen was obviously at a competent level, but you've never understood politics. "Any publicity is good publicity" might work when you are dealing with Joe Public, but it certainly doesn't when you are dealing with people who live by their position. Nothing will change in regards to your agenda...not while you are still breathing anyway. This whole thing was ill-considered and a little silly tbh.
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Anyone else but me recognise that baldy looking army dude on the TV tonight?
Good Job to him
06PA
Old bloke .....Good post.
I have a huge, humungous reason to be anti ADF/RAAF.....nahh ADFA, at the moment for botching a career, but I stand 100% behind the RAAF in resisting the assertion made.
Where is Binnie to back up Brownie..... Chief of Airforce?
Good Job to him
06PA Old bloke .....Good post.
I have a huge, humungous reason to be anti ADF/RAAF.....nahh ADFA, at the moment for botching a career, but I stand 100% behind the RAAF in resisting the assertion made.
Where is Binnie to back up Brownie..... Chief of Airforce?
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Quote: How would a pilot remain OCTA in those circumstances ?
How about a rate 1 turn? Hardly difficult.
How about a rate 1 turn? Hardly difficult.
You will drift downwind at the wind speed. If the wind is 30 knots, a rate 1 turn will take you 1 mile downwind. If the wind was, as suggested, 60+ knots a rate 1 turn will take you at least 2 miles downwind.
I'm not sure how you would even calculate a LSALT in those circumstances, without knowing how long you might have to wait.
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Night VFR and contributory factors
Andrewr, re your post #524, I'm not sure where you are going with this line of reasoning, however I'll note that under Night VFR the pilot must either navigate with continual reference to the ground or use Navaids. If he could no longer navigate visually and his navaids were not working, he had an obligation to report to ATC that he was unable to maintain standard track keeping tolerances, declaring an emergency if necessary and requesting radar vectors if available.
Dick, re your post #496 where your comment "No need for the gyro as it was CAVOK that would allow visual reference to ground all the way to Bankstown that night". Flying under NVFR it is mandatory to have a serviceable attitude indicator (artificial horizon) and heading indicator (directional gyro). See CAO20.18 Appendix IV Instruments required for aeroplanes engaged in: (i) aerial work and private operations under the Instrument Flight Rules (including night V.M.C.).
Also, remember that CAVOK means no cloud below 5000'. If you're flying at 8000' you could be flying over a cloud layer that prevents visual reference with the ground.
We know from the radio transmissions that the pilot was having trouble with his flight instruments but we don't know when these problems first became evident. Given that the pilot remarked to the refueller in Coolangatta that there was some problem with the gyros or electrics, therefore regardless of whether the pilot was planning to fly over the mountains or down the coast, one would have to question the pilot's decision to get airborne at night with suspect instruments. If the instruments failed airborne, the pilot should have declared an emergency right away which would have given him the ability to fly wherever he wanted even through active restricted airspace.
So if you're in the camp that states it was the fault of the RAAF airspace that caused the pilot to crash, you would have to agree that if the pilot had declared an emergency and flown down the coast, he would have reached his destination. And I could elaborate to identify other contributory factors as in all accidents removing any of the links or holes in cheese would have prevented the accident. My point is that the sweeping simplistic statement "I blame the situation on the military airspace at Williamtown" at the exclusion of all other factors is disingenuous.
Dick, re your post #496 where your comment "No need for the gyro as it was CAVOK that would allow visual reference to ground all the way to Bankstown that night". Flying under NVFR it is mandatory to have a serviceable attitude indicator (artificial horizon) and heading indicator (directional gyro). See CAO20.18 Appendix IV Instruments required for aeroplanes engaged in: (i) aerial work and private operations under the Instrument Flight Rules (including night V.M.C.).
Also, remember that CAVOK means no cloud below 5000'. If you're flying at 8000' you could be flying over a cloud layer that prevents visual reference with the ground.
We know from the radio transmissions that the pilot was having trouble with his flight instruments but we don't know when these problems first became evident. Given that the pilot remarked to the refueller in Coolangatta that there was some problem with the gyros or electrics, therefore regardless of whether the pilot was planning to fly over the mountains or down the coast, one would have to question the pilot's decision to get airborne at night with suspect instruments. If the instruments failed airborne, the pilot should have declared an emergency right away which would have given him the ability to fly wherever he wanted even through active restricted airspace.
So if you're in the camp that states it was the fault of the RAAF airspace that caused the pilot to crash, you would have to agree that if the pilot had declared an emergency and flown down the coast, he would have reached his destination. And I could elaborate to identify other contributory factors as in all accidents removing any of the links or holes in cheese would have prevented the accident. My point is that the sweeping simplistic statement "I blame the situation on the military airspace at Williamtown" at the exclusion of all other factors is disingenuous.
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Andrewr, re your post #524, I'm not sure where you are going with this line of reasoning, however I'll note that under Night VFR the pilot must either navigate with continual reference to the ground or use Navaids.
HOW do you wait NVFR, away from a navaid and without a proper holding procedure, then resume track within the required tolerances?
The navaids are designed for aircraft travelling in a straight line i.e. holding a heading, not circling.