Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
yr right,
In your reply to my post you wrote: "And stop the raaf bashing. God giver a break"
Since when did I ever do that? FYI I spent twelve years as a RAAF member but nothing to do with ATC.
In your reply to my post you wrote: "And stop the raaf bashing. God giver a break"
Since when did I ever do that? FYI I spent twelve years as a RAAF member but nothing to do with ATC.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: YSSY
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah right Blondie, don't change anything, us convicts resent change, we don't like the shackles being taken off at all.
Must be nice in your world, let's see, the television for entertainment, the politicians to make the rules and the police and military to keep them. Pissed Friday, shopping Saturday, footy Sunday and work Monday. Don't rock the boat.
Must be nice in your world, let's see, the television for entertainment, the politicians to make the rules and the police and military to keep them. Pissed Friday, shopping Saturday, footy Sunday and work Monday. Don't rock the boat.
Then again, your location says it all "nosar" aka the old saying - no SAR, no brains
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And after 570 posts here not one person has given one reasonable answer to the initial problem.
Why dose the RAAF need to lock up such amount of airspace 1 hour out of aust largest city.
Not one reasonable answer as yet.
Cheers
Why dose the RAAF need to lock up such amount of airspace 1 hour out of aust largest city.
Not one reasonable answer as yet.
Cheers
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NT
Posts: 710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yr right, I hesitate to criticize, but you have been a constant poster on this thread and the mangled language has me wondering whether someone who writes the way you do actually holds a license, in whatever form. I struggle to see your points and I am therefore condemned to interpretation.
Debate, regardless of one's convictions, is healthy. I don't care what your position is; you are entitled to your views as I am to mine.
Please, just review what you write, make sure that it's understandable to the rest of us and then, only then, push TX.
That small concession would be greatly appreciated.
Debate, regardless of one's convictions, is healthy. I don't care what your position is; you are entitled to your views as I am to mine.
Please, just review what you write, make sure that it's understandable to the rest of us and then, only then, push TX.
That small concession would be greatly appreciated.
Aussie Bob, presumably the above is a description of your life.
Were you even around aviation in the 70's?
aka the old saying - no SAR, no brains
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wells how's about. Yes i do write the way I do. I try hard to read it before I post and I'm sorry but most times it makes sense to me. Ye i do hold a licence as we'll. spelling gramma is not isn't a sign of a intelagainst on it's own.
Cheers
Cheers
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NT
Posts: 710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry yr right, but I rest my case given your last response.
Jeezus, whatever your view, articulate it properly.
No offence intended, but to be taken seriously there must be a modicum of language proficiency that supports one's case. One cannot argue on a written forum when one cannot communicate effectively via words.
You may have a legitimate case to make, but if you cannot articulate using the written word, which you can't right now, your posts will be be regarded for their amusement value and little else.
Jeezus, whatever your view, articulate it properly.
No offence intended, but to be taken seriously there must be a modicum of language proficiency that supports one's case. One cannot argue on a written forum when one cannot communicate effectively via words.
You may have a legitimate case to make, but if you cannot articulate using the written word, which you can't right now, your posts will be be regarded for their amusement value and little else.
Not to sure why you guys are getting all worked up over speeling & grama, the the ability to spel corektly & tha Enrish langwhich is overated
Me thinks this guy could also be having fun with you lot
I notice this thread is starting to lose some of it's impetus (had to look that one up!),maybe just maybe it's slipping into the annuls of PPrune to be brought back up again in the years to come.
Wmk2
Me thinks this guy could also be having fun with you lot
I notice this thread is starting to lose some of it's impetus (had to look that one up!),maybe just maybe it's slipping into the annuls of PPrune to be brought back up again in the years to come.
Wmk2
Bob, people being aggressive, insulting, exaggerating claims, unfairly laying blame might look good for tabloid media and play well to the ignorant masses and politicians but doesn't play well to those who have a clue. It yields precisely the reaction you see here.
It's nothing to do with concrete brains, anonymity on an anonymous forum, resistance to change, etc and so forth, but all to do with "the RAAF in effect sent these five people to their deaths".
That is not the way to garner support from those who are in a position to do anything about it.
I'd agree Wally, well and truly time to lock it.
It's nothing to do with concrete brains, anonymity on an anonymous forum, resistance to change, etc and so forth, but all to do with "the RAAF in effect sent these five people to their deaths".
That is not the way to garner support from those who are in a position to do anything about it.
I'd agree Wally, well and truly time to lock it.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: YSSY
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is an old forum on this topic which was started in 2010, someone posted it was 29 years since the disappearance of MDX. That thread is interesting to read.
VH-MDX was not the first aircraft to depart on a VMC flight and get into trouble with IMC conditions over Barrington Tops, and sadly probably won't be the last. A series of bad choices adding up to tragedy, we are all human and none of us perfect, but to use this particular tragedy for other purposes, and specifically to blame RAAF personnel on duty that night for 5 deaths, is indefensible.
We can only hope that all the effort so far from air and land searches will one day bring these 5 men home to their families, especially a son who never met his father. That is what is important.
Just for the record, the RAAF base in NSW is Williamtown.
'Williamstown' is a suburb of Melbourne.
ETA: Interesting article from last year - http://www.maitlandmercury.com.au/st...s-32-years-on/
VH-MDX was not the first aircraft to depart on a VMC flight and get into trouble with IMC conditions over Barrington Tops, and sadly probably won't be the last. A series of bad choices adding up to tragedy, we are all human and none of us perfect, but to use this particular tragedy for other purposes, and specifically to blame RAAF personnel on duty that night for 5 deaths, is indefensible.
We can only hope that all the effort so far from air and land searches will one day bring these 5 men home to their families, especially a son who never met his father. That is what is important.
Just for the record, the RAAF base in NSW is Williamtown.
'Williamstown' is a suburb of Melbourne.
ETA: Interesting article from last year - http://www.maitlandmercury.com.au/st...s-32-years-on/
Last edited by LegallyBlonde; 11th Jun 2014 at 07:50. Reason: Add link
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: -28.1494 / 151.943
Age: 68
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do not believe Dick ever blamed any Defence personnel on duty that night, rather the system that does not let anyone file a flight plan through the airspace.
Further that that hasn't changed one iota since MDX disappeared ....
Further that that hasn't changed one iota since MDX disappeared ....
Thread Starter
You are correct. It is the RAAF "system" that seems not to be able to make change.
If Williamtown was class D as per the CASA recommendation and the flight planning restriction was removed there would clearly be less chance of another accident .
I sincerely believe RAAF personnel are let down by the hierarchy who don't appear to have the necessary leadership abilities when it comes to change.
All very sad for our country.
If Williamtown was class D as per the CASA recommendation and the flight planning restriction was removed there would clearly be less chance of another accident .
I sincerely believe RAAF personnel are let down by the hierarchy who don't appear to have the necessary leadership abilities when it comes to change.
All very sad for our country.
It seems the need, based on your assertions Dick, is for aircraft to be able to transit coastal rather than go up over the hills. Is that right? Or are you after some sort of blanket clearance to plan through Willy airspace as and when required?
The whole accident / blame / change needed thing is too vague. What exactly do you want, clearance and planning wise?
It's the cities and air traffic around RAAF airspace that have grown hugely in recent decades - the old story of a suitable place becoming less suitable as time goes by. However, multi-multi-millions have been invested in places like this and to move them lock, stock and barrel is hardly feasible, and taxpayers are hardly likely to wear the cost of having places like Willy and Richmond up stumps and move out to the back of Bourke.
RAAF airspace has changed greatly around places like Pearce - 30 years ago it was basically a 50 nm circle, now it's a relatively tight funny-shaped setup in response to changing civil air traffic needs. Willy has extreme requirements because of the type of aircraft and flying that need to happen at the country's main fighter base.
How about instead of playing the hyped emotion card, you say what you want specifically, ie heights, routes, etc (I guess it's some kind of blanket clearance for IFR flights coastal at appropriate heights, given what you've been going on about with the 'sending to death' paid political message), and let the RAAF respond regarding what their operational requirements are with the airspace they need to get their job done?
The whole accident / blame / change needed thing is too vague. What exactly do you want, clearance and planning wise?
It's the cities and air traffic around RAAF airspace that have grown hugely in recent decades - the old story of a suitable place becoming less suitable as time goes by. However, multi-multi-millions have been invested in places like this and to move them lock, stock and barrel is hardly feasible, and taxpayers are hardly likely to wear the cost of having places like Willy and Richmond up stumps and move out to the back of Bourke.
RAAF airspace has changed greatly around places like Pearce - 30 years ago it was basically a 50 nm circle, now it's a relatively tight funny-shaped setup in response to changing civil air traffic needs. Willy has extreme requirements because of the type of aircraft and flying that need to happen at the country's main fighter base.
How about instead of playing the hyped emotion card, you say what you want specifically, ie heights, routes, etc (I guess it's some kind of blanket clearance for IFR flights coastal at appropriate heights, given what you've been going on about with the 'sending to death' paid political message), and let the RAAF respond regarding what their operational requirements are with the airspace they need to get their job done?
Thread Starter
I would like to see the flight planning restriction removed so non pressurized aircraft can plan the safest way from coffs to the south .
Yes. They may not always get a clearance but I reckon most of the time the ATCs will be able to let most traffic get through without sending it to the mountains
I would like to see the CASA recommendation of about six years ago that the airspace change to class D . This will reduce the staggering amount of holding that takes place for VFR aircraft in the coastal lane. A friend who regularly uses the coastal route VFR says he gets held over 80 % of the time. Sometimes for 5 minutes but once for 30 minutes. Nearly always because civil aircraft are arriving or departing Willy.
This is holding single engined aircraft orbiting low of the ocean - some with young kids aboard .
Class D in many circumstances is operated with traffic information between IFR and VFR aircraft. Instead of holding a small aircraft at Anna Bay- 12 miles out because an IFR planned Navajo is about to land on runway 12 the small aircraft is allowed to proceed southbound and if the Navajo performs a missed approach (very rare)
a traffic information service is provided.
If it works in many other countries which have a major RPT runway close to the coast why couldn't it work here?
Of course class D empowers ATC s to move a lot of traffic safely because there is nothing to stop them from issuing instructions that result in a more conservative separation than just traffic info.
Yes. They may not always get a clearance but I reckon most of the time the ATCs will be able to let most traffic get through without sending it to the mountains
I would like to see the CASA recommendation of about six years ago that the airspace change to class D . This will reduce the staggering amount of holding that takes place for VFR aircraft in the coastal lane. A friend who regularly uses the coastal route VFR says he gets held over 80 % of the time. Sometimes for 5 minutes but once for 30 minutes. Nearly always because civil aircraft are arriving or departing Willy.
This is holding single engined aircraft orbiting low of the ocean - some with young kids aboard .
Class D in many circumstances is operated with traffic information between IFR and VFR aircraft. Instead of holding a small aircraft at Anna Bay- 12 miles out because an IFR planned Navajo is about to land on runway 12 the small aircraft is allowed to proceed southbound and if the Navajo performs a missed approach (very rare)
a traffic information service is provided.
If it works in many other countries which have a major RPT runway close to the coast why couldn't it work here?
Of course class D empowers ATC s to move a lot of traffic safely because there is nothing to stop them from issuing instructions that result in a more conservative separation than just traffic info.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Dick, your class D argument is fine, but let it be known......it is an RAAF base.
How about you ask for it to be moved. Turn it into a privatised airport like the rest.
Send the problem to say Tindal. They need the extra numbers. Or how about Pearce?
How about you ask for it to be moved. Turn it into a privatised airport like the rest.
Send the problem to say Tindal. They need the extra numbers.
Or how about Pearce?
emotive
Dick Smith
Oh dear, here we go again, emotive claptrap.
This is holding single engined aircraft orbiting low of the ocean - some with young kids aboard .
