How to thread drift in 720 posts!!!
No Hoper said:
… only vacuum Module locked out still have centrifugal advance.
… only vacuum Module locked out still have centrifugal advance.
A bog standard piston aero engine has mechanically fixed timing. There is no centrifugal (or vacuum) advance. (Impulse couplings on magnetos are a centrifugally-disabled retarding mechanism, to assist starting only.)
That’s one of the reasons it’s good to know how to use the RPM, mixture and throttle controls (mainly RPM and mixture) to move the PPP within a fairly small but operationally important range after TDC, on piston aero engines.
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Don't waste your breath
Gentleman it is clear we are wasting our time with trying to educate him
and further attempts will only lead to frustration.
Dont feed the Troll!
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and further attempts will only lead to frustration.
Dont feed the Troll!
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Creampuff, fair call but the check for static and dynamic timing is the same for bog standard aero engine and am still researching the implications of the variance that you have found in your research. When I get back to civilization I will talk to the aero engine gurus and see what it all means.
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43inches
Couldn't agree more. Any operation still in business has to look at every avenue to survive.
The old adage of run smarter not faster applies. A little education and keeping up with maintenance trends can help make better informed decisions and a fuller understanding of both planned and past unplanned maintenance can make for a safer operation.
Its the lot of little things that save big time and money.
Trend monitoring now using downloaded EDM data can help find little problems way before they raise their head at some isolated strip and become a big problem.
What is the option to try and maintain a profit? The only option is to reduce pilots wages. This is always the option of the uneducated, unscrupulous and the cowboy operations and has bought a bad reputations down on all of us operators that, like us, look upon our staff as family and the most important asset in the company. We pride ourselves on always paying award wages, because we have all come up the hard way of no money but lots of passion. Happy well paid, good trained pilots save lives and build companies.
I think the APS course or simular should be mandatory for every young budding pilot/LAME and CFI in Australia nothing to do with LOP but just to get a better understanding of what's under the cowls and how to read and understand what the EDM is telling them in front of them.
I for one, if I read on a CV from a pilot that they had attended a engine management course run by a company with a reputation as the APS has then they would certainly get a call back. Wouldn't guarantee a job but certainly a second look.
Please don't think I am in anyway that I am part of APS or get any kickbacks. I attended a course some years ago when new engine management was first being discussed in Australia through the CPA and what I learnt from them, and then the next 8 or so years of trying to put some of AAAHA moments together that came as revelations of running a steady growing aviation business.
Couldn't agree more. Any operation still in business has to look at every avenue to survive.
The old adage of run smarter not faster applies. A little education and keeping up with maintenance trends can help make better informed decisions and a fuller understanding of both planned and past unplanned maintenance can make for a safer operation.
Its the lot of little things that save big time and money.
Trend monitoring now using downloaded EDM data can help find little problems way before they raise their head at some isolated strip and become a big problem.
What is the option to try and maintain a profit? The only option is to reduce pilots wages. This is always the option of the uneducated, unscrupulous and the cowboy operations and has bought a bad reputations down on all of us operators that, like us, look upon our staff as family and the most important asset in the company. We pride ourselves on always paying award wages, because we have all come up the hard way of no money but lots of passion. Happy well paid, good trained pilots save lives and build companies.
I think the APS course or simular should be mandatory for every young budding pilot/LAME and CFI in Australia nothing to do with LOP but just to get a better understanding of what's under the cowls and how to read and understand what the EDM is telling them in front of them.
I for one, if I read on a CV from a pilot that they had attended a engine management course run by a company with a reputation as the APS has then they would certainly get a call back. Wouldn't guarantee a job but certainly a second look.
Please don't think I am in anyway that I am part of APS or get any kickbacks. I attended a course some years ago when new engine management was first being discussed in Australia through the CPA and what I learnt from them, and then the next 8 or so years of trying to put some of AAAHA moments together that came as revelations of running a steady growing aviation business.
Not involved in APS either, don't know what they do but it sounds like they're on the right track. What I like about their stance appears to be dragging aircraft maintenance and operational theory out of the dark ages. To a point almost where most other modern industries have been for years. From, don't ask just do it this way to think about what you are doing and how can it be done better.
If they were around when I was flying pistons I'd probably get along and see.
Occasionally we had a great engineer or pilot who would question the way things were and offer a suggestion on how to improve things from experience or just analytical toying with the thing. These ideas solved a few very small but expensive problems with our aircraft that you won't find in the manufacturers books. One place I worked had almost 100 CASA EOs on an engine type to try and raise reliability, it mostly worked, but the aircraft and engine manufacturer didn't want to have anything to do with it. As the good guys left the problems returned as things filtered back to book fixes (or worse, the old, this worked on a Cessna so I'll do it to your Piper).
If we got all these things back into a system of maintenance, given time it would have saved enormous amounts of cash. You'd be surprised at the amount of $10 fixes that could save thousands, but that's what preventative maintenance is about. There's also a lot of aircraft maintenance that is not require that could be delayed based on good trending and monitoring.
If they were around when I was flying pistons I'd probably get along and see.
Occasionally we had a great engineer or pilot who would question the way things were and offer a suggestion on how to improve things from experience or just analytical toying with the thing. These ideas solved a few very small but expensive problems with our aircraft that you won't find in the manufacturers books. One place I worked had almost 100 CASA EOs on an engine type to try and raise reliability, it mostly worked, but the aircraft and engine manufacturer didn't want to have anything to do with it. As the good guys left the problems returned as things filtered back to book fixes (or worse, the old, this worked on a Cessna so I'll do it to your Piper).
If we got all these things back into a system of maintenance, given time it would have saved enormous amounts of cash. You'd be surprised at the amount of $10 fixes that could save thousands, but that's what preventative maintenance is about. There's also a lot of aircraft maintenance that is not require that could be delayed based on good trending and monitoring.
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Galileo's course material wasn't Vatican approved either.
correct but a lot of them had 1st class seat at the bbq.
now the difference between myself and most you out there is I place my name my lic on a document that is certifying that it is true and correct and I am liable in a court of law if I have made a mistake. Big difference to what you all I bet.
ive asked some basic things here that you all cant answer correctly. You seam to think you know but you have been in correct.
you can say what you wish I really don't care I get my PM in and they say the same as what I do.
If you are running a course and it not certified it proves a lot. Now ive learnt a lot over the years and am still learning I understand how and engine works also how an airframe works and the interface between them. I am not blind to new things but what I am amazed at is you think LOP is new.
For some of you that don't have an engineering back ground go do the course it may be a wake up. But don't expect me too and if I don't im dosent mean im backwards, remember I see what happens and engines don't lie to me ive been doing this to long now.
Jaba ive said im not telling you what has happened in court, there are people that know me and know what happened so lets just leave it at the hey.
And if you wont me to write technical I can I just choose not too, so who out there had to write technical information them self and had to submit it to a court ?
Chers
correct but a lot of them had 1st class seat at the bbq.
now the difference between myself and most you out there is I place my name my lic on a document that is certifying that it is true and correct and I am liable in a court of law if I have made a mistake. Big difference to what you all I bet.
ive asked some basic things here that you all cant answer correctly. You seam to think you know but you have been in correct.
you can say what you wish I really don't care I get my PM in and they say the same as what I do.
If you are running a course and it not certified it proves a lot. Now ive learnt a lot over the years and am still learning I understand how and engine works also how an airframe works and the interface between them. I am not blind to new things but what I am amazed at is you think LOP is new.
For some of you that don't have an engineering back ground go do the course it may be a wake up. But don't expect me too and if I don't im dosent mean im backwards, remember I see what happens and engines don't lie to me ive been doing this to long now.
Jaba ive said im not telling you what has happened in court, there are people that know me and know what happened so lets just leave it at the hey.
And if you wont me to write technical I can I just choose not too, so who out there had to write technical information them self and had to submit it to a court ?
Chers
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but that's what preventative maintenance is about. There's also a lot of aircraft maintenance that is not require that could be delayed based on good trending and monitoring.
Um I think I said that way back when. trend trend and more trend. Now when you aircraft is down it cost more to send someone out to fix it that is an additional cost. Most reasonable places do trend we use to trend then replace ,are break downs where minimal.
trending will save you more than LOP every day of the week. I keep saying fuel is the cheapest thing you can put in you aircraft.
Cheers
Um I think I said that way back when. trend trend and more trend. Now when you aircraft is down it cost more to send someone out to fix it that is an additional cost. Most reasonable places do trend we use to trend then replace ,are break downs where minimal.
trending will save you more than LOP every day of the week. I keep saying fuel is the cheapest thing you can put in you aircraft.
Cheers
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Those that accuse Yr Right of being a troll need to stop being knobs and contribute to the discussion theyselves.
The man has contributed since early in the thread, which is contrary to the meaning of troll. You make yourself troll by posting specifically to insult the man.
If the discussion is too technical for you go over to the Truss thread and have happy ending with your fellow knobs there, creampuff and leadsled excepted
The man has contributed since early in the thread, which is contrary to the meaning of troll. You make yourself troll by posting specifically to insult the man.
If the discussion is too technical for you go over to the Truss thread and have happy ending with your fellow knobs there, creampuff and leadsled excepted
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Cheers No Hooper
I will say this again I was ask my opion on LOP. I gave it ill stand by it. Fuel is cheap.
And ive noticed you all went a little quite on the exhaust valve in a car what sorry not technical enough,
Cheers
I will say this again I was ask my opion on LOP. I gave it ill stand by it. Fuel is cheap.
And ive noticed you all went a little quite on the exhaust valve in a car what sorry not technical enough,
Cheers
trending will save you more than LOP every day of the week. I keep saying fuel is the cheapest thing you can put in you aircraft.
To know whether LOP is good or bad you would need to trend the outcome over time and monitor the condition of affected parts. It sound like the APS guys have good data on the subject, good data can be approved and turned into operational practice and away you go.
And here we encounter the bitter-sweet dilemma of witnessing endangered species on the brink of extinction. On one hand: respect for the history and vast experience; on the other: exasperation at the dinosaur stupidity.
In circumstances like these I'm reminded of the counsel of a genuinely wise engineer: Creampuff, you can lead a horse to water, but you don't have to suck through its ar*e to make it drink.
Good luck yr right.
(Seriously: good luck in your retirement. You've earned it.)
In circumstances like these I'm reminded of the counsel of a genuinely wise engineer: Creampuff, you can lead a horse to water, but you don't have to suck through its ar*e to make it drink.
Good luck yr right.
(Seriously: good luck in your retirement. You've earned it.)
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43inchs
You hit the nail on the head. LOP operated correctly in conjunction with a good EDM and well trained pilots will save not only maintiance costs, extend cylinder/valve life but will also save the price of an engine in its life in fuel savings alone.
All up we may have trended data from EDM's saved over maybe 10,000 hours and 6 to 7 years on a range of engines.
It works for us the data proves it, our maintiance bills prove it.
My concern is that in desperation to stay in bussiness a lot of our competion will try and go LOP without management having the knowledge or understanding or training of how to run a fleet LOP and get the most from the data and review their pilots operations to make sure their engines are happy. If not Yr right will keep seeing damage from LOP done wrong.
I like Yr right do hope that it doesn't become to popular as I like to have slight competive edge on the opposition.
You hit the nail on the head. LOP operated correctly in conjunction with a good EDM and well trained pilots will save not only maintiance costs, extend cylinder/valve life but will also save the price of an engine in its life in fuel savings alone.
All up we may have trended data from EDM's saved over maybe 10,000 hours and 6 to 7 years on a range of engines.
It works for us the data proves it, our maintiance bills prove it.
My concern is that in desperation to stay in bussiness a lot of our competion will try and go LOP without management having the knowledge or understanding or training of how to run a fleet LOP and get the most from the data and review their pilots operations to make sure their engines are happy. If not Yr right will keep seeing damage from LOP done wrong.
I like Yr right do hope that it doesn't become to popular as I like to have slight competive edge on the opposition.
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Oh, Jeez, Yr. Right, NOBODY has suggested that LOP is "new"
People have spent a lot of time and effort, trying to help you understand just how important a correct mixture is.
I flew a bit with a friend in an Aeronca Chief. NO MIXTURE CONTROL!!!
Armstrong starting, an Icom handheld and a very basic panel.
That aeroplane ran rich on the ground......it failed to climb above 10,000 feet because the engine was choking-up. All that excess energy was going out of the exhaust as soot.
In an aircraft with a mixture control, you have the ability to reduce the fuel -to air mixture, for a "perfect burn"-within the limitations of fixed valve and ignition timing and compression ratio.
What everybody has been trying to explain, is that, whilst excessively rich mixt. CAN have a beneficial cooling effect. there is a band of ratios from "rich through "weak" where detonation is likely to be prevalant.
Go rich of the "danger band" and you'll waste fuel and foul plugs.
Go weak of the "danger band" and you'll lose power , as cylinders will either stop firing or the mix is simply too weak to produce power.
I'd suggest all your duff "cly's" (Why don't you write CYL's as an abbreviation? ) have been run in the "danger area"
It's just a shame that the laws of physics have shoved this detonation area bang in the middle of the combustible range of mixture -ratios.
Fed up now, the water's right there, your choice wether to drink it free of charge..... If I lived in Aus, I'd be tempted by that course and i'm neither a LAME or Pilot.
You see, Yr. Right, you really have no idea who is behind the "handles"
But it's pretty obvious to me , that some very well-qualified, literate and intelligent engineers, with real, hands-on experience, have been trying to help you understand this method of engine operation.
Some years ago, a UK company prodiuced a glass-insulator spark plug (Gunson's Colourtune)...It enabled you to actually watch the combustion-chamber burn and set idle mix accordingly....unfortunately it was not robust enough, and lacked the heat-range, to run under load on a Dyno.
People have spent a lot of time and effort, trying to help you understand just how important a correct mixture is.
I flew a bit with a friend in an Aeronca Chief. NO MIXTURE CONTROL!!!
Armstrong starting, an Icom handheld and a very basic panel.
That aeroplane ran rich on the ground......it failed to climb above 10,000 feet because the engine was choking-up. All that excess energy was going out of the exhaust as soot.
In an aircraft with a mixture control, you have the ability to reduce the fuel -to air mixture, for a "perfect burn"-within the limitations of fixed valve and ignition timing and compression ratio.
What everybody has been trying to explain, is that, whilst excessively rich mixt. CAN have a beneficial cooling effect. there is a band of ratios from "rich through "weak" where detonation is likely to be prevalant.
Go rich of the "danger band" and you'll waste fuel and foul plugs.
Go weak of the "danger band" and you'll lose power , as cylinders will either stop firing or the mix is simply too weak to produce power.
I'd suggest all your duff "cly's" (Why don't you write CYL's as an abbreviation? ) have been run in the "danger area"
It's just a shame that the laws of physics have shoved this detonation area bang in the middle of the combustible range of mixture -ratios.
Fed up now, the water's right there, your choice wether to drink it free of charge..... If I lived in Aus, I'd be tempted by that course and i'm neither a LAME or Pilot.
You see, Yr. Right, you really have no idea who is behind the "handles"
But it's pretty obvious to me , that some very well-qualified, literate and intelligent engineers, with real, hands-on experience, have been trying to help you understand this method of engine operation.
Some years ago, a UK company prodiuced a glass-insulator spark plug (Gunson's Colourtune)...It enabled you to actually watch the combustion-chamber burn and set idle mix accordingly....unfortunately it was not robust enough, and lacked the heat-range, to run under load on a Dyno.
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Mick.
As you said is correct. The problems related to lop can be very devastating with costs of damage. As I've said you trend. That's a big difference. But for the average joe it's a dangous playing field. For a ga guy that runs under a 100 hours a year fuel is cheap. This is not the first time I've have. One across this. Experience tells me things in advance. As I said I sign my own work and stand by it. I spent 15 k on repairs today on two engines less than 300 hours old. Try explaining that. But we run a safe fleet and a extremly reliable fleet. And we don't lop.
Trend trend and trend it's more important than lop. Fuel is cheap. And I'm no dinosaur we'll not yet anyway. And anyway I've got turbines as we'll so I'll be right. And I do give you congrats on your org and btw I have zero idea who you are or where you are.
Lames are the last line of defence in safety. Learning to say NO is the hardest thing I have ever had to say. I did and that's what makes me a better engineer.
Cheers
As you said is correct. The problems related to lop can be very devastating with costs of damage. As I've said you trend. That's a big difference. But for the average joe it's a dangous playing field. For a ga guy that runs under a 100 hours a year fuel is cheap. This is not the first time I've have. One across this. Experience tells me things in advance. As I said I sign my own work and stand by it. I spent 15 k on repairs today on two engines less than 300 hours old. Try explaining that. But we run a safe fleet and a extremly reliable fleet. And we don't lop.
Trend trend and trend it's more important than lop. Fuel is cheap. And I'm no dinosaur we'll not yet anyway. And anyway I've got turbines as we'll so I'll be right. And I do give you congrats on your org and btw I have zero idea who you are or where you are.
Lames are the last line of defence in safety. Learning to say NO is the hardest thing I have ever had to say. I did and that's what makes me a better engineer.
Cheers
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Blimey! this thread has been busy whilst I was replying...
I'd suggest that the lack of burnt exhaust valves..... YOU AGREE, Yr. Right? There are very few nowadays?
Is due to the very weak mixtures now prevalant...= lower temperatures. (Agreed, improved materials do have a part to play)
Remind me again, how do you establish the correct ratio?.....OH!YES! you lean so the cylinder head temperature is a number of degrees below the peak temperature a cylinder will develop.
Maybe , in due course, fully automatic, feedback-loop controlled ignition and fuel systems will become certified and normal for Aviation Piston Ops. meanwhile, like a 1930's car, the Chauffeur will just have to develop a "feel" for the engine and adjust the controls available , for best performance.
I'd suggest that the lack of burnt exhaust valves..... YOU AGREE, Yr. Right? There are very few nowadays?
Is due to the very weak mixtures now prevalant...= lower temperatures. (Agreed, improved materials do have a part to play)
Remind me again, how do you establish the correct ratio?.....OH!YES! you lean so the cylinder head temperature is a number of degrees below the peak temperature a cylinder will develop.
Maybe , in due course, fully automatic, feedback-loop controlled ignition and fuel systems will become certified and normal for Aviation Piston Ops. meanwhile, like a 1930's car, the Chauffeur will just have to develop a "feel" for the engine and adjust the controls available , for best performance.
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Um I never said don't lean. I have just said don't do lop. That's a big difference. Same as wayalla accident. You all said it was rich enough clearly it wasn't as it failed. The engine took off with no problem it would have been in full rich. The crank didn't fail. It's an important lesson that you will not admit to. People life's where lost. At the end off the day it's not my decession to run lop and I won't tell anyone to do it. That's not my job. If ask like I was here I'll say what I have to say. Like I said I sign my name against what I do. None off you do. That's not brave. If I come across dead cly etc it gets fixed that's my job.
Cheers
Cheers
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Yr Right
I know for a fact, as i have met some here you are arguing with, how many runs they have on the board, and they are quite significant. and myself, you might be surprised..
so just what are the runs you have on the board?, so i can make an informed decision on how to interoperate what you have been telling us.
Nah I'm not postal. I've got runs on the board what have you all got ?
so just what are the runs you have on the board?, so i can make an informed decision on how to interoperate what you have been telling us.