Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Reload this Page >

How to thread drift in 720 posts!!!

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

How to thread drift in 720 posts!!!

Old 1st Apr 2014, 09:31
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Australia
Age: 30
Posts: 15
Angry How to thread drift in 720 posts!!!

Howdy. I want to put to you guys a few questions that might hypothetically be happening to someone who isn't me.

1: This person has accepted a job on an aircraft flying privately, yet happens to be doing an insane amount of flying and duty hours that would beach CAO 48 pretty much every day. Considering this is a private operation, legally, is it this persons own responsibility to monitor their own fatigue, performance levels and flying hours or could some unforeseen issues arise with it? Whether it be insurance or otherwise.

2: The owner of this hypothetical Lycoming io540 equipped aircraft has neglected a 50 hourly oil change for in excess of 50 hours. As in, it has done over 100 hours since it's last oil change. The maintenance release does not stipulate any oil change beyond the first which has already taken place, but being a private operation, 100 hourlies are not required. Would you have any input as to the status of a near end of life aircraft engine operating under such conditions? Whether it be physical damage, insurance issues, decreased margin of safety, mandatory manufacturer guidelines or anything else? The hypothetical pilot of the aircraft has serious concerns about the insurance and passenger liability status of the aircraft as well as general failure potential of the engine.
Ilikeflying is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 11:56
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Skipton
Age: 14
Posts: 173
being a private operation, 100 hourlies are not required
Wait, what?
BlatantLiar is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 12:22
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 1,002
No. A maintenance release is not required but all maintenance require dMUST be done. This include all ADs if the flying time has exceeded the limits.
yr right is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 12:41
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Idlewild
Posts: 115
Annual inspection

I believe that, for private ops, an annual inspection is required to renew the maintenance release but there is no hourly limit between inspections i.e you may exceed 100 hours in the year. Also, oil changes at 25 and/or 50 hours are recommended, not compulsory.
uncle8 is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 12:46
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 51
Posts: 6,879
Interesting questions. I think that if it is PVT and the MR does not have inscribed a 50hr oil change then it is not legally required.

For that matter it only requires as a bare minima an annual inspection. The engine manuals do state oil change intervals but they are not a mandatory thing depending on the system of maintenance applicable.

I think......but I am not 100% sure and I bet you get lots of opinions.

All the legal BS aside, lets examine some reality of engineering.

Oil changes are not as necessary when the oil is not old, is regularly topped up(progressive replacement) and the plane is flow a lot. That said, depending on how the engine is operated (read mixture management) the oil deposits could vary significantly. This is why oil change intervals are recommended depending on usage. In particular H2O which helps form acids.

Next is spark plugs and magneto's. If they are fine wires, then no big deal. 100 hrs is fine. All they need is a resistance check and checked for cleanliness. If they are Champion, this is far more critical.

Air cleaners, this is a 100hrly thing but depending on locations this may be prudent at 50 as well.

Is there an engine monitor? Is it downloaded regularly and the data examined. Is it examined by someone who really knows what they are looking at? (only 1% of pilots and LAME's are in that boat)

Are the cylinders borescoped each 100 hours. Oil analysis as much as this is a variable test?

There are so many variables.....if you wanted to talk in private I would happily help point you in the right direction but here could be a wild ride.

Last of all, remember this. Just because it is legal does not mean it is prudent. All maintenance should be viewed with this integrity test. Does it do everything it should and nothing it shouldn't?


Feel free to PM.
Jabawocky is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 13:03
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Perth
Posts: 130
Post concerns

The requirement for the oil change/filter inspection is clearly set out in AD/ENG/4 requirement A3 for private ops - within the manufacturers recommended period + or - 10%

Although a 100 hourly is not required for private (annual only) AD ENG 4 requirements A1+2 require a compression test and engine test run to be conducted @100hrs + or - 10% in addition to the above oil change and filter inspection which is/was due again at 100 hrs.

No amount of Schedule 5 / private ops leniency will allow you to avoid the above AD.

If your friend has been flying the aircraft with these items overdue on the MR then he is in breach of the regs! The owner may be relying on the pilot to tell him when maintenance is due.

If they are not on the MR the aircraft is on manufacturers maintenance schedule in which case and the inspections are required under that OR the maintenance guys failed to put it on and THEY are in breach of the Regs

Since your friend is obviously keen to keep his flying job I suggest he go to the owner (non pilot?) bearing a copy of the AD and the responsibility for the owner to maintain the aircraft IAW the regs for a friendly discussion. This may turn out to be a case of owner and maintainer ignorance combining in the perfect storm.

As for the flying hours if there is a good relationship with the owner perhaps your friend could review their flying pattern and suggest alternate schedules which could save them both time. As a single pilot for a private operation your friend may just have to accept the role of maintenance and flight scheduler as well.
Progressive is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 13:24
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Perth
Posts: 130
Jaba,
As per my other posts Oil changes and filter inspections ARE a required thing either under the Manufacturers Maintenance schedule or AD/ENG/4 as an engineer you should know that.

Fine wire plugs are good for over 100 hours but "champions" are not? Since Champion is a brand that manufactures both fine wire and massive electrode (the other type spark plugs) this make no sense at all. If you are suggesting that fine wires need less maintenance than massive electrode plugs then this is also untrue. Both require cleaning and gapping, both have electrode wear (faster in massive electrode but spread over two electrodes instead of one in the FW)

As for the magnetos, type of plug fitted has nothing to do with the rate of wear in points, gears, capacitors and other components so advising that less than normal maintenance is "no big deal" is just plain wrong.

I know what I am looking at during oil analysis, engine monitoring, and bore-scope inspections and none of these things will identify a cracked crankcase, cracked cylinder head (not yet separated), holed muffler or any one of 100 other things that can kill you and can only be found by good old MK1 eyeballs.

Not to mention the airframe parts that would also be inspected at the 100hr

It may be legal to operate a private aircraft over 100 hours without inspection but it is definitely not prudent.

Also feel free to PM for advice
Progressive is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 20:44
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 3,052
Some slight tweaks to yours, progressive, so that you’re giving the whole picture.

The requirement for the oil change/filter inspection is clearly set out in AD/ENG/4 requirement A3 for private ops - within the manufacturers recommended period + or - 10%.
But ….

AD/ENG/4 only applies to piston engines fitted to aircraft maintained to Schedule 5.

Further …

AD/ENG/4 ‘points’ to the engine manufacturer’s data.

So…

What you meant to say was:

(1) if a piston engine is fitted to an aircraft maintained to Schedule 5; and
(2) the engine manufacturer’s data specifies oil/filter changes more frequently than e.g. Annually/100 hourly,

the outcome is that AD/ENG/4 mandates the more frequent changes, subject to the margin specified in the AD.

What those periodicities happen to be change from engine-to-engine type/part number to engine type/part number.

Also…

It’s possible for the aircraft to be maintained in accordance with a system of maintenance (i.e. neither Schedule 5 nor the manufacturer’s maintenance schedule, although I concede that a system of maintenance would normally reflect the engine manufacturer’s oil/filter change recommendations).

Re ignition systems: You obviously think you know lots about ignition systems, but have learnt very little. Do a search on the Champion massive electrode internal resistor problem.

You 'gap' fine wire plugs? You’re not going anywhere near my engine.
Creampuff is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 20:48
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,263
If he is paid to fly, it is not a private operation.
4Greens is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 21:07
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 3,052
Not accurate.

There are lots of operations during which the pilot may be paid, handsomely, but it's still a private operation.

One example of many is the transport of the owner of the aircraft ...

Another is agricultural ops on land owned by the owner of the aircraft ...

Decades of this classification of operations system, and still ignorance pervades.
Creampuff is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 22:29
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 38
Another spanner in the works here.... Didn't specify what type of operation. Given the hours and skimpy maintenance, one might guess that your friend is parachute dropping? If so there is a requirement for 100 hourlies and oil changes every 50 hours even though it's a private op under the apf's casa instrument.
evilducky is online now  
Old 1st Apr 2014, 22:38
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,658
It disappoints me that there is often a flavour on PPRuNe that all bosses are exploitative crooks taking advantage of young pilots.

The relationship with your boss should be good enough to ask honest, open, enquiring questions like these. This applies whether you are a pilot or the office girl. If your relationship with the boss is not good enough for this, it would be a signal to look for a new job.

Regarding the oil changes, I agree that I would prefer to change oil more frequently. But from the pilots perspective its what's on the MR that counts. It will have a validity date, airframe hours and notes on interim maintenance. If the MR does not require the oil change, then its legal. If the MR requires an oil change that has not been signed off, then its not legal and he shouldn't fly it. If the MR is not requiring an intermediate oil change, then frankly its as much a question for the LAME that signed it as the owner. If there is an accident attributable to lack of oil change (which there won't be) then it will be the LAME in the gun, not the owner. Once again, this would be an entirely reasonable question to ask the signing LAME. The owner will pay the price of lack of oil change in increased engine wear / shorter engine life. Its very unlikely to be a safety issue.

Regarding duty times, frankly who cares about CAO 48. Its probably the single worst written CAO. If you want evidence, just look at the huge volume of exemptions granted by CASA. The real question is whether the pilot is happy with the duty hours? This varies hugely with the style of operation. If the aircraft is flying VFR in good weather west of the J-curve and the owner is also a pilot who shares some of the duty (not an uncommon scenario), then I'd suggest you could easily, safely and happily fly twice the duty hours of (say) a single pilot IFR freight run in bad weather (ie across Bass Strait).

But, really these are both conversations that an employee should have with his / her employer.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2014, 00:48
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 81
Why not just change the oil yourself, rather than continuing to worry about it?
desert goat is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2014, 01:18
  #14 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Australia
Age: 30
Posts: 15
Yeah it's based out of the middle of no where and there isn't enough oil to change it themselves.

The pay is fantastic and the hours just as good. it is not skydiving ops, just many 1 - 3 hour legs in a day, and it is considered a private op.

The pilot is looking to quit because of the abrasive personality of he owner and the fact that he gets yelled at whenever he voices concerns.

Thanks for all the replies so far, they have been very enlightening.

The maintenance release stipulated the first oil change at a predetermined time, but not any subsequent ones. The engine is a Lycoming 540.

And yes, the pilot has no problems with the long days, but was still enquiring in the event of a logbook review or something similar.
Ilikeflying is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2014, 01:46
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,882
We covered the MR thing a few months back on here.

An annual inspection is an annual inspection, not a 100 hourly, but of course they can be done at the same time.

If you have 2 hours on the VDO for the last year, you still get an annual inspection.

If you do 300 hours in one year, you are still up for ONE annual inspection, but potentially 6 "services" or oil changes.
VH-XXX is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2014, 02:31
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 28
You 'gap' fine wire plugs? You’re not going anywhere near my engine.
Then why do Champion, the manufacturers of said 'fine wire' plugs recommend gapping them and provide instructions as to how to do it? Oh and why do they make the tools to do this as well?
drogue chute is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2014, 02:53
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 3,052
Ain't no engineer going anywhere near my fine wire plugs with any gapping tools.

Last edited by Creampuff; 2nd Apr 2014 at 04:12. Reason: Fixed typo: "within" to "with"
Creampuff is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2014, 03:31
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,658
If you do 300 hours in one year, you are still up for ONE annual inspection, but potentially 6 "services" or oil changes.
The MR should specify both a TTIS & calendar date validity - whatever it is. It should also specify periodic inspections / maintenance required within the validity period of the MR (ie oil change requirements should be listed).

The pilot should not need to do anything past reading the MR. If the MR is OK, and the required inspections are completed (including the daily) then the pilot should be able to fly it. If the MR requirements are not complied with, the pilot cannot legally fly it.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2014, 04:52
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 51
Posts: 6,879
Progressive,

I think you may have confused yourself with what I said Vs what we both know is prudent and generally legal.

It is possible that a certain manufacturer does not specify a 50hr oil change. I have never seen one, but there could be, and so if by Sched 5 and AD/Eng/4 it points to the aircraft manual and it does not, then legally it does not. As best I can tell.

As for Creamies post, I think that explains it all.

Ok spark plugs. I am not sure how you did not follow what I said. If you need to call me please do, happy to chat, but let me try to explain in more detail.
Next is spark plugs and magneto's. If they are fine wires, then no big deal. 100 hrs is fine. All they need is a resistance check and checked for cleanliness. If they are Champion, this is far more critical.
Massive electrodes need to be cleaned and gapped every 50 hours (+/-10%) not by law but because the gaps change out of spec in that time. By 100 hours they are usually outside 0.018" and I can pick them on the EMS and with my calibrated butt!

Fine wires, they rarely need cleaning, unless the operator is a poor mixture knob user. (I have a solution to that) and the gaps stay very reliable even out to 1000+ hours. As Creamie noted.....nobody is touching his fine wires!

Champion Vs another major brand. Champions are a great plug and work fine but they have a very short life in the resistor, typically 300 hours is when they start to drift and once at 5k ohms they go in the bin. This is important for other reasons than just good smooth running.


As for the magnetos, type of plug fitted has nothing to do with the rate of wear in points, gears, capacitors and other components so advising that less than normal maintenance is "no big deal" is just plain wrong.
As for magneto's......where on earth did you get the idea I said anything of the sort...go back and read again please. This thread was about 50 hour oil changes and out to 100 hours. Now you are talking about 500 hour Magneto inspections. By the way I agree with your comments about checking them, very strongly, you have 100% support there

But I must pull up one point. You suggest that spark plugs have nothing to do with magneto's. Well this seems to be something that even CASA failed to address in a recent AWB on magnetos where they talked about coils suffering from heat stress yet they have no idea where this magical extra heat stress comes from. No it is not the continual heat from years of operation. It is from years and hundreds or thousands of hours of operating on plugs with high resistance. Problem is not many folk know this and it is a long forgotten bit of knowledge. I hope that helps


I know what I am looking at during oil analysis, engine monitoring, and bore-scope inspections and none of these things will identify a cracked crankcase, cracked cylinder head (not yet separated), holed muffler or any one of 100 other things that can kill you and can only be found by good old MK1 eyeballs.
Maybe I am over reacting here but where did I say that this was a good idea not to do these things? I think we are in an extreme case of agreement here. BTW my plane gets an almost 100hrly every 50 or less, and it gets two 100hrlys and an annual per year. So I am on your side here.

Now just a note though, you say that there are things you can't see with an EMS, well holes in exhaust systems can at times be found, broken flame cones too. Maybe you might be surprised what an EMS tells you. By the way I have a suggestion on where that and many more things can be learned. But I will be accused of advertising a course which is run not to make profit, but is a company none the less.

It may be legal to operate a private aircraft over 100 hours without inspection but it is definitely not prudent.
Yep....we are in severe agreement once again.
Jabawocky is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2014, 05:02
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 51
Posts: 6,879
Gapping spark plugs. I have written articles on this, much to the delight of Tempest, who at first I thought were going to sue me for something, until I realised that was not their intent at all and quite the opposite. But rather than blab on here, go to this link.

DO NOT try to gap fine wires, because they do not need it and NO you can't buy tools for it. The ones you buy are for Massive Electrode plugs

http://www.tempestplus.com/Portals/0...ire%200813.pdf

http://www.tempestplus.com/Portals/0...y%20081412.pdf

http://www.tempestplus.com/Portals/0...ugs%201012.pdf

Enjoy!
Jabawocky is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.