You Calll Yourselves Pilots

[Jack Ranga]

Maybe I will. How does it work in the case given, when you also need to switch to/from CTAFs and only have one radio?

'Centre, ABC switching xxx CTAF 126.7, call again by time xx'

Now, I don't know if that's how its written in AIP but if I was to use the service I'd read up on it and know how it works first.

Controller sees a situation developing on radar they are obliged, by law, to do something about it.Out of interest, what separation is considered "a situation developing"? VFR, most would probably consider 1 mile is nothing to worry about, but I'm not sure what it looks like on radar.

Depending on the range the controller has set it can look heaps or it can look horrible. It all depends on the tracks of the aircraft, are they diverging or converging, opposite direction? Are they maintaining levels, climbing, descending? Depends. How long's a piece of string? It's judgement. Just because I measure 1 mile between the paints on radar it doesn't mean that there's 1 mile between them. There are tolerances built into separation standards, that's why my minimum radar standard is 5nm.

The situation that prompted this thread was very close, 2 aircraft pointing at each other, one maintaining, the other below and climbing through the other's level. One of them at least, I know was required to carry a radio but was un-contactable through several sources.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re " if I say who's bright idea that was."

Go on.....dare ya..!!

p.s. (Thanks for the redundo dick....)

[dubbleyew eight]

Surely replying to ATC saying, "I think you may be referring to me, I'm around that height and this is my estimated position"

you don't enter into a conversation in that situation.

what you do is make a terse position report and let the controller work out if your report matches what he sees.

the other day "aircraft in the vicinity blah heading north at 5,000' contact me.

I was close to blah going the same way but not at the height so
'Alpha bravo charlie, blah, 2000ft heading north'.
turned out the controller wasnt aware of me.

[andrewr]

Was the traffic being passed to the IFR on his departure report? If so, it should have had a location and outbound track in the report. If you monitor the frequency you will hear all this information, you can then make an assessment of whether you are that traffic. If it's a random traffic report and you hear it:

'Centre, ABC, VFR, 10 miles south of xxx tracking east, A055'

'ABC, Centre, sqwark ident'

I have no idea if it was a departure report, but I didn't hear it. I suspect I hear only the ATC side of the conversation, i.e. the aircraft is too far away to hear. I also have no idea what area ATC is covering with combined frequencies. Do ATC want a reply from every VFR aircraft at 5500 within their coverage area? My assumption is no, but I'm happy to be corrected.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

I suspect I hear only the ATC side of the conversation, i.e. the aircraft is too far away to hear

Pretty good chance that its not you in conflict then! The secret (I find) is to have enough situational awareness (listening to the radio) to at least be aware of who started the exchange.

If it's Centre and they call a rego and start talking about unidentified traffic then it's usually hard to figure out where they're talking because if it's directed at an IFR aircraft, they don't normally identify the area, only the range of the VFR. From a 'risk management/judgement' perspective, unless either side gives a clue then using big sky theory it's far less likely to be you.

If it's an IFR departure report then at least listen for the departure airfield and then decide if you need to keep paying attention and/or call in. If it's a departure report and you don't hear the transmitting a/c at all (they should make 2-3 calls as part of a standard IFR departure) then you're pretty safe.

[andrewr]

'Centre, ABC switching xxx CTAF 126.7, call again by time xx'

Now, I don't know if that's how its written in AIP but if I was to use the service I'd read up on it and know how it works first.

The references I have seen say that you must maintain a continuous listening watch on the ATC frequency, and advise ATC prior to leaving the frequency. The implication is that flight following ends when you can no longer maintain a listening watch, and you would have to request it again when returning to the frequency.

I haven't found the procedure for leaving the frequency without terminating flight following, but I'm looking. All I can find is
"CHANGING TO ... CTAF"
"IDENTIFICATION TERMINATED, FREQUENCY CHANGE APPROVED"

Is "switching xxx CTAF 126.7, call again by time xx" or similar documented at all as part of flight following in AIP (or somewhere else)? I understand it is a helpful procedure, but if it's not there I can't read up on it.

[andrewr]

Maybe it was a departure report I didn't hear, or I think it could equally be an aircraft that transferred to the frequency on descent for the airport 20 miles away, or one 100 miles away.

If it's Centre and they call a rego and start talking about unidentified traffic then it's usually hard to figure out where they're talking because if it's directed at an IFR aircraft, they don't normally identify the area, only the range of the VFR. From a 'risk management/judgement' perspective, unless either side gives a clue then using big sky theory it's far less likely to be you.

That's exactly the circumstance I'm talking about. Without a location that suggests that it might be me, I figure that the best thing to do is ignore it. Even if it is me, ATC can see me and the other aircraft knows where I am relative to them, so the easiest thing for everyone is to maintain course and altitude so I'm easy to avoid.

[Jack Ranga]

Andrew, the controller may terminate the service when you go CTAF. No bother, the controller may keep the ident and when you call on exiting the CTAF re-establish the flight following.

[Nautilus Blue]

Even if it is me, ATC can see me and the other aircraft knows where I am relative to them, so the easiest thing for everyone is to maintain course and altitude so I'm easy to avoid.

Agreed. If I pass traffic to a IFR on an unidentified VFR, the position will be relative to the IFR. If the IFR wants to talk to the VFR, they will call the VFR, giving an absolute position. As often as not they don't because they have them on TCAS, or because they are not concerned. As mentioned, our idea of close on our screen is often a lot different to a pilots looking to the window.

VFR to VFR is different. It's as much about covering my behind as providing a service. I am quite aware that two symbols can merge on my screen while the actual aircraft are a safe distance apart, so I'm quite happy for you to reply or not.

[Jack Ranga]

I've had heaps of PM's asking questions about how things work I hope I'm answering your questions well. If you'd rather PM I'm more than happy to answer your questions there. It indicates to me that there should be a 'help line' set up by ASA where pilots can lodge an enquiry. Sort of like a live chat that some websites have. The problem with that may be that it will be run by PR or a non-ATC department, i.e. not the 'coalface' controller. Anyways, keep the question coming

[Jabawocky]

Top idea JR and I have a plan for you and the Hoodyman

[mcgrath50]

Hey JR,

Any chance you can post some of the questions here, maybe with the authors names detached if they wanted it to be private?

I have learnt a lot from this thread to questions I didn't even know I had!

[Jack Ranga]

mcgrath50, I'll get onto it, give me a bit of time

[tyler_durden_80]

A valuable thread, well done JR...my 2 cents....

If giving an IFR traffic on an unknown VFR, of course the VFR will have little to no idea who I am referring to, so after passing traffic to the IFR aircraft, I'd make a broadcast like...'Centre broadcast for VFR traffic, ____ miles north of ____, tracking south at A055, IFR traffic is _____, [IFR intentions/tracking], close proximity in ____.'

Alternatively, giving traffic to 2 unidentified VFR A/C can be more tricky...my standard broadcast is along the lines of...'VFR traffic alert, centre broadcast for 2 VFR aircraft S/W of ____, one tracking north at A055, one tracking southwest at A055, close proximity 90 seconds...' Or along those lines. Finding an appropriate common point can be tricky. And if neither if the 2 A/C are listening on my area freq, all I've do so is cover my own arse for the pending investigation.

Cheers
TD80

[Jack Ranga]

td

10 characters

[bodybag]

Hey Jack Ranga,
This is a bit rich coming from an Airservices Air Traffic Controller don't you think?
You guys have had some terribly unprofessional incidents in recent times and don't get me started on your inefficiencies!
Australian ATC have rightly earned their place as second rate operators!
(the stereotyping is intentional)

[Howard Hughes]

Second rate trolling right there!

Doesn't really matter who starts the conversation, any conversation about standards is good!

[Homesick-Angel]

Bodybag

29 posts since Jan 2008.
Seems like a second mantle for someone.

With Jacks sense of humor, its probably him trolling himself.

Great thread by the way.

[bodybag]

Give me a break!
Of course any conversation about standards is a good conversation.. but..
have a read of Jacks first post. He's being pretentious! He's stereotyping all pilots as having 'pathetic' standards, HE'S not going to be advocating a pay rise for us (which is a pity because I'm sure he's very influential!) and he implies that he's a much better pilot. READ HIS POST!
I'm highlighting that ATC are far from perfect. I hear them making careless mistakes everyday! I'm regularly frustrated by their inefficiencies. And I'm down right frightened by some of the incidents over the last few years!
Jack, pull your head in.. get stuff sorted at your end first, then you can discipline us!

[Jabawocky]

I am sure JR will have an answer, but often in a terminal area the surrounding OCTA area is handled by one ATC, and in BN at time the old BN RAD, now BN CEN is also handling BN APP, so any OCTA VFR is dealt with on a "when available" service level.

Fortunately a busy BN CEN radar guy found the time to offer me (IFR and OCTA) this service as I may well have hit a VFR in IM recently.

I need to track that guy down and buy him a beer!