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ADS-B Mandate – ATCs Responsible for Deaths?

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ADS-B Mandate – ATCs Responsible for Deaths?

Old 4th Feb 2014, 21:27
  #281 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
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Akro, I work LTV low level, the radar coverage out there is not the best, if I get you at 5000 it would be lucky. We don't have access to the ESL radar, (you may want to ask ASA why not).

Interestingly, I can see ADSB equipped acft in the cct at ESL. Radar coverage O/H ESL is around 8-9000ft. It has it's benefits.

I'm still confused as to how it is going to cost you 25k? My GTX330ES cost about 4.5k from memory. Granted I can install it myself so 20k to stick it in a hole??

P.S. I can guarantee you that if the controller saw the traffic they would have passed it to you. The rules are explicit on this, we don't sit on our arses watching these situations. If something happens, we saw it & did nothing we're in court.
Jack Ranga is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2014, 21:52
  #282 (permalink)  
 
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Old Akro,
Part of th e "problem" is that CASA and AsA (whether deliberately or otherwise I will leave to you) "confuse" cost/benefit justification and cost/effectiveness analysis, two different animals.

As your figures show, it is very cost effective for AsA, as for cost/benefit --- a joke in very poor taste, this without regard to the very doubtful "savings". Something called "proponent bias" is very evident.

Given the limited IFR traffic below FL 290, it is very difficult to show any cost savings to operators from the theoretically available reduced separation standards available with ADS-B OUT, likewise with reduced vertical separation, it is very hard to show real savings versus ausep standards.

Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2014, 22:47
  #283 (permalink)  
 
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I'm still confused as to how it is going to cost you 25k? My GTX330ES cost about 4.5k from memory.
Mode S ES transponders have only been available for (I think) less than a year and the prices are starting to drop as there becomes competition. At the moment the choice is Garmin or Trig. Soon it will be King as well (and maybe Avidyne?). Which in itself is a good reason to delay.

I think at the moment you can get a mode S ES transponder for about $3.5k. Anyone who has a King KT76A (ie most people) and fits the Garmin unit requires a new tray and a panel relayout (the Garmin is just a bit taller). I would prefer to wait for the King unit which might be available later this year. That requires new pin outs, but not a new tray (I think).

The Mode S transponder requires a new gray code altitude encoder for nearly everyone with a legacy mode C transponder. That will be about $1k

The big hitter is that I cannot use my current C129a GPS. So I need to fit a new C146a (WAAS) GPS. At the moment the only options are a Garmin 430W (while they are still available) GTN 650 or GTN 750. In a year there will be King and Avidyne options also.

The very cheapest option is a secondhand Garmin 430W which will probably be about $7k. A new 430W about $10k and a GTN 650 about $12k (all from memory).

The WAAS GPS needs a new antennae & cabling. So the interior needs to come out for the install.

The WAAS GPS (in my case) will replace a King Nav/com - so I will need a new CDI. That's about $2k.

The new WAAS GPS will also require that radio stack to be relaid. So more labour.

My guess is that 3 separate engineering orders will be required by CASA. At typically $350 each that's another $1k.

Total materials so far : $14.5k using a secondhand 430W.

Plus installation labour??? My guess is 40 hours @ $100 / hour = $4,000

Total $18,500 with a secondhand Garmin 430W or about $23,500 with a new GTN 650.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2014, 23:15
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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Hey Jabba and Jack

So when CASA repechages the rule requiring that all mandatory flight and navigation equipment and instruments be approved by CASA, will you be as enthusiastic?

Remember, CASA is concerned that “a number of amateur-built aircraft” are flying “under the IFR using non-approved” systems.

Are all the systems in which you are happily “reinvesting” approved by CASA for your aircraft?
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 02:39
  #285 (permalink)  
 
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Creamie, the only non TSO'd stuff in my aircraft is the G3X.
GTN750
GTX330ES
SL40
GI-106A
It has 3 layers of electrical redundancy. It has 3 separate GPS sources. It has backup TSO'd ALT, ASI, AH. It's going on the register IFR.

I had to add stuff to the panel due to ex LAMES at CASA protecting their industry buddy's maintenance income streams.

So, yes Creamie, I'm relatively happy now

Akro, are you complicating things? Why can't you stay with C129a?
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 02:46
  #286 (permalink)  
 
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jack does it fly like a dog with all that weight?
dubbleyew eight is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2014, 02:49
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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W8, it's lighter than Jaba's (sorry Jab )
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 03:01
  #288 (permalink)  
 
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I miss my Bendix T12C. I could listen to the cricket while flying VFR legally above 8/8's cloud. I even had a licence to drive that and a VOR but I don't have one for this new gadgetry. I do have a wireless licence.
Frank Arouet is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2014, 03:34
  #289 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Actually, I think I will change my mind.

For Sale: (At todays new prices)
1 x Toyota 86
1 x Toyota 200 Series GXL Landcruiser
1 x Apple Macbook
1 x RV10 with all glass (2014) panels and avionics


Wanted to Buy: ( At the new price of their day)
1 x 1973 HQ Kingswood
1 x 1967 Toyota FJ 40 series L/C (older than me)
1 x Apple......errr case of Granny Smiths and an abacus
1 x 1965 Piper Comanche 260 absolutely original condition (no upgrades at all please - except maybe the AWA DME )

Ohhh yeah and 240 ground based nav-aids......

I should have lots of money left over
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 04:19
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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The guy has an Airprox with an aircraft he is required by law to self separate with (as is the chopper pilot), misses standard CTAF calls, and doesn't know why ATC hasn't passed traffic on the VFR he's almost hit (hint: "3.15.1 In Class G airspace, a traffic information service is provided to IFR flights about other conflicting IFR and observed VFR flights. MLJ flights are considered to be IFR for traffic purposes regardless of flight planned category. Services provided may be based on ATS surveillance system data where coverage exists.") and still can't see how extended surveillance will enhance safety for pilots at all operating levels. It's like immunising children, just about everyone needs to do it or it's a waste of time. You share airspace with users who aren't required to fit the equipment...low level airspace that is intended to be the domain of VFR, given most IFR equipped a/c can climb above A100. Thats your choice. Safety to the majority of IFR a/c will increase. In 10 years every a/c will be fitted and in 20 no one will remember the vocal minority. Save your dollars and fly VFR for the next few years and then take up bowls.

p.s Before you get stuck in, tell me what the Coroner would have concluded..

Last edited by Hempy; 5th Feb 2014 at 04:37.
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 04:59
  #291 (permalink)  
 
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Akro, are you complicating things? Why can't you stay with C129a?
Not permitted. C146a is mandated for ADS-B
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 05:04
  #292 (permalink)  
 
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low level airspace that is intended to be the domain of VFR, given most IFR equipped a/c can climb above A100.
This is the only bit I have trouble with. Most IFR aircraft are not pressurised. So most of the 3,000 odd GA IFR aircraft are below 10,000 ft.

And dear Aunty CASA requires specific approval (& airframe log book entry) for oxygen - even portable systems. Bring back a portable system you buy at Oshkosh, use it here and you are illegal.
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 05:21
  #293 (permalink)  
 
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Jaba

The real analogy is that I have a L/C 100. I've upgraded the radio to include bluetooth for the mobile phone and I (for the sake of the argument) have upgraded it with a DPF (Diesel particulate filter) so that it meets the same emissions standards as the new L/C 200 V8 Turbo diesel.

I'm driving along the freeway and look over and there's a guy weaving over the road in the same year L/C 100, billowing smoke and holding a mobile phone to his ear.

I down and I see a homebuilt clubman sports car in between us. Its open top. It has been built to kit car standards and has not undergone any safety tests and has unknown compliance to emissions standards and is not fully compliant to ADR's (Australian Design Rules) because the law doesn't require it.

Here's the kicker. The clubman pays less registration because its lighter. The front number plate has fallen off the other L/C 100, so its not paying the freeway tolls. I'm the only mug on the highway who has paid money to be compliant with road rules and vehicle certification (once again hypothetical)

So I am paying more for the ability to use the same piece of freeway.
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 08:11
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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And dear Aunty CASA requires specific approval (& airframe log book entry) for oxygen - even portable systems. Bring back a portable system you buy at Oshkosh, use it here and you are illegal.
This little black duck will be bring back a system, legal!

And I will guarantee you that my sports car will piss all over any aircraft of it's class in the certified ranks, both build quality & equipment redundancy, guaranteed
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 09:15
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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COMIC RELIEF TIME

hehehhehehehhe

Can't help but have some fun Akro I like your analogy Ol mate .. ridiculous, incomprehensible, but entertaining none the less

Satirically corrected version of Akro’s analogy:

I have a L/C 100. I've upgraded the radio to include bluetooth for the mobile phone and I (for the sake of the argument) have upgraded it with a DPF (Diesel particulate filter) so that it meets the same emissions standards as the new L/C 200 V8 Turbo diesel. My L/C 100 is also equipped with an all weather guidance system so that I my use designated roads to towns with no/low-vision arrival off ramps, day. night, zero visibility fog etc! In order to ensure I do not hit another L/C 100 in low/no-vis I can pay a fee, and friendly operator from the Roads and Traffic Authority will monitor my drive and advise via Satellite radio when other low/no-vis cars are around me, as well as make sure I don’t miss my off ramp, each of which has its own special guidance beam signals!

I'm driving along the road on a section where the weather is OK, so other drivers not paying for a low/no-vis service are also driving, and look over and there's a guy weaving over the road in the same year L/C 100, billowing smoke and holding a mobile phone to his ear. I shake my head and take care to give ‘Murph’ a wide birth!

I also see a homebuilt clubman sports car in between us. Its open top. It has been built to kit car standards and has not undergone any safety tests that I know of and has unknown compliance to emissions standards and is not fully compliant to ADR's (Australian Design Rules) because the law doesn't require it. But my fears are allayed as the Clubman is obviously compliant as this registered vehicle is also in receipt of a low/no-vis service, and the R.T.A. operator has just advised me of the ‘clubman’ being in the same area on the road. The Clubman is paying the same fee as me for the low/no-vis service. The R.T.A operator has luckily seen ‘Ol Murph’ on an R.T.A camera and advises both myself and the Clubman of his presence even though ‘Ol Murph’ is not self-announcing on the radio, nor paying attention to other road users!

Here's the kicker. The clubman pays less general registration because its lighter. The front number plate has fallen off ‘Ol Murph’s’ L/C 100, so it is not approved nor able to pay a fee and drive in no/low-vis conditions. That's lucky!

Perhaps I should buy a clubman (less rego) and only drive in clear visibility conditions (like ‘Ol Murph’)
Hope ya get a giggle
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 10:05
  #296 (permalink)  
 
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That was farkin' funny Jabman
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 22:42
  #297 (permalink)  
 
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Seeing as 'Murph' is driving in a controlled freeway, as he does once a year when he comes to town to get the 'rings done', (you know with traffic lights and lanes, parking meters, pedestrian crossings and coppers), he has his transponder on, plus his horn, (which he doesn't need back on the farm), and everyone with a TCAS can see what he's up to, even the coppers, the tax man, the toll booth and security cameras. The only ones who can't see him are those buggas without a TCAS that isn't mandated to be able to see him. Only the coppers can do that. You see they need to see him so they can send him a bill for driving on their roads even though he pays the same for them as they do. Recently the coppers told him he is going to have to get a transponder for his bull as the bell isn't loud enough for the city folk to hear when they are driving on his dirt roads over his grids and through his property.


His missus reckons he should stay out of the city as it's full of wankers.


'Murph' just brought a 36' boat and is gong to piss off to New Zooland with his budgie and 'go native'. (been watching too much of that new fangled TV I reckon).
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 00:45
  #298 (permalink)  
 
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Yours is funny too Frank, but Jaba's is funnier
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 00:56
  #299 (permalink)  
 
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You take things too personally ......the name Murph to me means a true Kiwi Legend. And driving cars....nothin to do with boats.

And he has his transponder on.... 2m 06.859s

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Old 6th Feb 2014, 02:51
  #300 (permalink)  
 
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true Kiwi Legend
I thought we had claimed him! Along with Sam Neil, Russell Crowe, The Finn Bros and pineapple lumps
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