ADS-B Mandate – ATCs Responsible for Deaths?
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Seeing as 'Murph' is driving in a controlled freeway, as he does once a year when he comes to town to get the 'rings done', (you know with traffic lights and lanes, parking meters, pedestrian crossings and coppers), he has his transponder on, plus his horn, (which he doesn't need back on the farm), and everyone with a TCAS can see what he's up to, even the coppers, the tax man, the toll booth and security cameras. The only ones who can't see him are those buggas without a TCAS that isn't mandated to be able to see him. Only the coppers can do that. You see they need to see him so they can send him a bill for driving on their roads even though he pays the same for them as they do. Recently the coppers told him he is going to have to get a transponder for his bull as the bell isn't loud enough for the city folk to hear when they are driving on his dirt roads over his grids and through his property.
His missus reckons he should stay out of the city as it's full of wankers.
'Murph' just brought a 36' boat and is gong to piss off to New Zooland with his budgie and 'go native'. (been watching too much of that new fangled TV I reckon).
His missus reckons he should stay out of the city as it's full of wankers.
'Murph' just brought a 36' boat and is gong to piss off to New Zooland with his budgie and 'go native'. (been watching too much of that new fangled TV I reckon).
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You take things too personally 
......the name Murph to me means a true Kiwi Legend. And driving cars....nothin to do with boats. 
And he has his transponder on.... 2m 06.859s
......the name Murph to me means a true Kiwi Legend. And driving cars....nothin to do with boats. And he has his transponder on.... 2m 06.859s
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No.....and who asked you! We are just getting onto something far more interesting.
Akro....but what about CL's lap.....took a long time to break Murphs.
Akro....but what about CL's lap.....took a long time to break Murphs.
Does anyone know where there is a list of specifically which navaids are being decommissioned? I saw a list years ago, but now I can't find anything.
Why do I ask? Because CASA are forcing me to plan a complete panel relay to fit a new C146a GPS and Mode S transponder, I thought it would be appropriate to reconsider what navaids I need. I'd really like to be able to consider what Navaids will be available at my common destinations over the likely life of the new panel. Unreasonable??
Secondly, I have read many times about how these aids are old and uneconomic. I've read how upgrade will cost vaguely $120m, but I have seen nothing that actually looks like someone has built up a number from real costs. If the $120m relates to the 200-odd navaids that will be shutdown, then this averages at $600,000 per unit. However it appears that a brand new Nautel or Thales NDB installation (using an existing building with existing power) might be as little as AUD$50,000.
Does anyone at all get to see real figures and scrutinise them?
Here is an interesting presentation from Nautel:
http://www.nautelnav.com/wp-content/...DB-Systems.pdf
I like the line that NDB's are the navigation aid of last resort and therefore mission critical.
Here is the Thales product:
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/de..._datasheet.pdf
Thales boast 35,000 hours between failures. That's inferring 4 years between maintenance. Combined with a running cost less than that to light the average AsA bureaucrat's office the AsA's bleats that its too expensive don't smell right.
But going back to my original question, it would be nice to have some guidelines for (say) the next 10 years before I spend my money.
For GA, ILS is now basically worthless. We have less runways with ILS than Malaysia (do I need to say... Mildura?). This is a country we have just donated 2 customs ships to! VOR's are uncommon outside the J curve. NDB's are the lifeline in remote Australia. But which ones will remain? Does AsA have a plan or are they making it up as they go?
Why do I ask? Because CASA are forcing me to plan a complete panel relay to fit a new C146a GPS and Mode S transponder, I thought it would be appropriate to reconsider what navaids I need. I'd really like to be able to consider what Navaids will be available at my common destinations over the likely life of the new panel. Unreasonable??
Secondly, I have read many times about how these aids are old and uneconomic. I've read how upgrade will cost vaguely $120m, but I have seen nothing that actually looks like someone has built up a number from real costs. If the $120m relates to the 200-odd navaids that will be shutdown, then this averages at $600,000 per unit. However it appears that a brand new Nautel or Thales NDB installation (using an existing building with existing power) might be as little as AUD$50,000.
Does anyone at all get to see real figures and scrutinise them?
Here is an interesting presentation from Nautel:
http://www.nautelnav.com/wp-content/...DB-Systems.pdf
I like the line that NDB's are the navigation aid of last resort and therefore mission critical.
Here is the Thales product:
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/de..._datasheet.pdf
Thales boast 35,000 hours between failures. That's inferring 4 years between maintenance. Combined with a running cost less than that to light the average AsA bureaucrat's office the AsA's bleats that its too expensive don't smell right.
But going back to my original question, it would be nice to have some guidelines for (say) the next 10 years before I spend my money.
For GA, ILS is now basically worthless. We have less runways with ILS than Malaysia (do I need to say... Mildura?). This is a country we have just donated 2 customs ships to! VOR's are uncommon outside the J curve. NDB's are the lifeline in remote Australia. But which ones will remain? Does AsA have a plan or are they making it up as they go?
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Your last sentence probably sums it up.
There is no such thing, (any more), as routine or preventative maintenance so I would wager they will just let them become redundant as they fail and call it natural attrition. Then revert to above sentence.
There is no such thing, (any more), as routine or preventative maintenance so I would wager they will just let them become redundant as they fail and call it natural attrition. Then revert to above sentence.
Looking through the AsA website.
I can find in great detail its plan and progress to plan for " equity and diversity" of its employees:
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...rt_2009-10.pdf
But I can find NOTHING detailing exactly what airservices will be provided or how that is performing compared with plan.
Is this a dysfunctional organisation or what?
I can find in great detail its plan and progress to plan for " equity and diversity" of its employees:
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...rt_2009-10.pdf
But I can find NOTHING detailing exactly what airservices will be provided or how that is performing compared with plan.
Is this a dysfunctional organisation or what?
Found a tender to demolish old Navaid buildings, but still nothing on the forward plan.
Tender Detail for DEMOLITION OF NAVIGATION AIDS
The interesting thing, is that some of this morning's reading found that overseas, the NDB buildings, power supplies, etc are being re-tasked as GBAS transmitters. Are we prejudicing our ability to roll out a WAS system??
Tender Detail for DEMOLITION OF NAVIGATION AIDS
The interesting thing, is that some of this morning's reading found that overseas, the NDB buildings, power supplies, etc are being re-tasked as GBAS transmitters. Are we prejudicing our ability to roll out a WAS system??
Last edited by Old Akro; 8th Feb 2014 at 00:53.
Akro, search the CASA website for NPRM 1105 AS. When you find it, click the link to an 'Annex G'
That is a list of navaids due to be retained, if a navaid is not on that list, then it is due to go.
The only change that I know of is the Sydney VOR, its going.
Alpha
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - NPRM 1105AS
That is a list of navaids due to be retained, if a navaid is not on that list, then it is due to go.
The only change that I know of is the Sydney VOR, its going.
Alpha
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - NPRM 1105AS
AlphaCentauri
Exactly what I was looking for, although the totals are a bit different from the AsA figures I found.
Interestingly, it basically removes all the AsA navaids used for training in the Melbourne basin. How does this fulfil their charter of promoting safety?
For currency or training if one wants to do an NDB approach the choice will be Moorabbin (too busy for training) or the private one at Latrobe Valley. Full stop. The gone list includes: Essendon, Ballarat, Yarrowee, Cowes, Wonthaggi, Mangalore, Strathbogie,Bendigo, Echuca, Wangaratta, Horsham, Nhill, Bairnsdale
For currency or training if one wants to do a VOR approach the choice will be:
Mangalore or Avalon (Private). Full stop. The gone list includes Cowes, Wonthaggi, Yarrowee, Eildon Weir, Nhill
Getting or maintaining a MECIR is about to get a whole lot more expensive and Lindsay Fox is about to make more money at Avalon.
There might be a business in someone like Leongatha buying a couple of old units from AsA and installing them to charge for training!
Seriously, we are a first world country that prides itself on education & training. Why wouldn't we leave Yarrowee, Phillip Is or Wonthaggi with its NDB / VOR for training??
Exactly what I was looking for, although the totals are a bit different from the AsA figures I found.
Interestingly, it basically removes all the AsA navaids used for training in the Melbourne basin. How does this fulfil their charter of promoting safety?
For currency or training if one wants to do an NDB approach the choice will be Moorabbin (too busy for training) or the private one at Latrobe Valley. Full stop. The gone list includes: Essendon, Ballarat, Yarrowee, Cowes, Wonthaggi, Mangalore, Strathbogie,Bendigo, Echuca, Wangaratta, Horsham, Nhill, Bairnsdale
For currency or training if one wants to do a VOR approach the choice will be:
Mangalore or Avalon (Private). Full stop. The gone list includes Cowes, Wonthaggi, Yarrowee, Eildon Weir, Nhill
Getting or maintaining a MECIR is about to get a whole lot more expensive and Lindsay Fox is about to make more money at Avalon.
There might be a business in someone like Leongatha buying a couple of old units from AsA and installing them to charge for training!
Seriously, we are a first world country that prides itself on education & training. Why wouldn't we leave Yarrowee, Phillip Is or Wonthaggi with its NDB / VOR for training??
clearedtoenter
Correct!!
The C146a (WAAS) GPS is the expensive part.
Plus, it needs a grey code altitude transponder. And the WAAS GPS needs a new antennae & cabling, so its not a simple upgrade - even from GNS 430 to GNS430W
Any IFR aircraft with a Garmin 155, 300, 430/ 530 (non waas), King 89 / 94 or heaven forbid an Apollo or Trimble unit will require a new C146a GPS. If you browse through Aviation trader it feels like that will be 80% of all existing IFR aircraft.
AND frequently, when Avioincs say drop in they mean physically, not electrically. There is a very large chance that the rear connector on the rack will need to be replaced.
Reading NPRM 1105 yesterday, its pretty clear that IFR enroute navigation after the start turning off navaids and de-rating the power of many of the remaining ones in early 2016, that only GPS will be acceptable for en-route navigation for any IFR flight.
A question that has been glossed over is whether this will also apply to aircraft on NVMC plans.
Correct!!
The C146a (WAAS) GPS is the expensive part.
Plus, it needs a grey code altitude transponder. And the WAAS GPS needs a new antennae & cabling, so its not a simple upgrade - even from GNS 430 to GNS430W
Any IFR aircraft with a Garmin 155, 300, 430/ 530 (non waas), King 89 / 94 or heaven forbid an Apollo or Trimble unit will require a new C146a GPS. If you browse through Aviation trader it feels like that will be 80% of all existing IFR aircraft.
AND frequently, when Avioincs say drop in they mean physically, not electrically. There is a very large chance that the rear connector on the rack will need to be replaced.
Reading NPRM 1105 yesterday, its pretty clear that IFR enroute navigation after the start turning off navaids and de-rating the power of many of the remaining ones in early 2016, that only GPS will be acceptable for en-route navigation for any IFR flight.
A question that has been glossed over is whether this will also apply to aircraft on NVMC plans.
not to mention that WAAS coverage is not avail in AUS.
Oops, wait, we are demolishing them all. Doh!
My understanding is that WAAS is just a form of differential GPS (DGPS). An additional beacon is used to improve the accuracy (especially altitude accuracy) of GPS. Surveyors, farmers and crop dusters have been doing this for about 15 years.
GBAS is another form of DGPS, but uses ground based ones instead of geo stationary satellites. I have read that some countries use ADF infrastructure (buildings, power supplies and antennae) for GBAS beacon installation and that if you already have all the bricks & mortar parts, the electronic box for GBAS is relatively cheap.
I had always thought that a network of beacons would be an alternative for Australia to launching a satellite. Its basically what AMSA has done for marine GPS. AMSA have 16 land based DGPS beacons that I always thought provided WAAS type accuracy for the marine equivalent of the aviation J routes.
However, some browsing I just did on the FAA GBAS office site suggests that GBAS requires different GPS units in the aircraft. So, now I'm unsure.
GBAS is another form of DGPS, but uses ground based ones instead of geo stationary satellites. I have read that some countries use ADF infrastructure (buildings, power supplies and antennae) for GBAS beacon installation and that if you already have all the bricks & mortar parts, the electronic box for GBAS is relatively cheap.
I had always thought that a network of beacons would be an alternative for Australia to launching a satellite. Its basically what AMSA has done for marine GPS. AMSA have 16 land based DGPS beacons that I always thought provided WAAS type accuracy for the marine equivalent of the aviation J routes.
However, some browsing I just did on the FAA GBAS office site suggests that GBAS requires different GPS units in the aircraft. So, now I'm unsure.
Old Akro,
WAAS requires specific satellite signals.
WAAS requires aircraft GPS receivers that are WAAS capable.
WAAS requires a small network of ground stations to broadcast correction signal to achieve "WAAS" accuracy, the aircraft does not need to "see" any ground station.
Japanese satellites cover Australia with a WAAS signal, this is a different satellite system to the original over the central Pacific, which was moved when the Australian policy decision to not deploy WAAS was made public.
The value of WAAS, for other than aviation, is rapidly declining, as Generation 3 GPS goes into place, providing positioning accuracy equivalent to WAAS, without the ground based infrastructure.
In the aviation field, for any aircraft with a modern IRS/FMCS system, baro-VNav eliminates the need for WAAS --- the update is about the same as updating an older GPS system to a WAAS capable system.
In summary, the part of the Australian GA fleet that could benefit from WAAS is quite small. - so the benefits of PVG to an ILS like minima, given Australia's overall weather record, is quite small, far smaller than when the WAAS policy decision was made.
Forget WAAS in Australia, it ain't gunna happen. If for no other reason than the fact that AsA couldn't figure out a way to charge for it!!
Tootle pip!!
WAAS requires specific satellite signals.
WAAS requires aircraft GPS receivers that are WAAS capable.
WAAS requires a small network of ground stations to broadcast correction signal to achieve "WAAS" accuracy, the aircraft does not need to "see" any ground station.
Japanese satellites cover Australia with a WAAS signal, this is a different satellite system to the original over the central Pacific, which was moved when the Australian policy decision to not deploy WAAS was made public.
The value of WAAS, for other than aviation, is rapidly declining, as Generation 3 GPS goes into place, providing positioning accuracy equivalent to WAAS, without the ground based infrastructure.
In the aviation field, for any aircraft with a modern IRS/FMCS system, baro-VNav eliminates the need for WAAS --- the update is about the same as updating an older GPS system to a WAAS capable system.
In summary, the part of the Australian GA fleet that could benefit from WAAS is quite small. - so the benefits of PVG to an ILS like minima, given Australia's overall weather record, is quite small, far smaller than when the WAAS policy decision was made.
Forget WAAS in Australia, it ain't gunna happen. If for no other reason than the fact that AsA couldn't figure out a way to charge for it!!
Tootle pip!!
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Leadsled said it pretty well.
WAAS requires at least 2 different geosats for coverage, and at least 2 centers.
The ground stations gather the data from the GPS sats. This is all fed to the centers. In the US, there is a center on each coast.
The centers broadcast a hyper-corrected signal up to the 2 geosats, which then broadcast to the coverage area.
You reciever still uses all of the GPS sats, and the WAAS part applies the correction factor.
GBAS is completely different.
A GBAS system is per airport, with at least 3 ant, spaced as far aprt as possible. The GBAS continuously monitors all of the sats avail. The GBAS creates its own correction factor for that location only.
The system broadcasts this correction factor, as well as the code for the final approach for the ac to use. It is a signal broadcast which the ac uses with much the same look alike system as an ILS.
With GBAS, the ac still uses the GPS sats, the GBAS is the correction factor.
Hope that clears it up a bit more.
As noted, there is little hope for WAAS in AUS, but GBAS is a much different story. A typical GBAS unit, installed, is about $3Million per airport. With this you get a max 26 runway ends, and currently cert to Cat I. The signal is accurate enough for CAT III, but it is not cert for it yet. When it does get cert, the system, nor ac will need any mod.
Both Boeing and Airbus offer GBAS at no cost difference on a new ac.
WAAS requires at least 2 different geosats for coverage, and at least 2 centers.
The ground stations gather the data from the GPS sats. This is all fed to the centers. In the US, there is a center on each coast.
The centers broadcast a hyper-corrected signal up to the 2 geosats, which then broadcast to the coverage area.
You reciever still uses all of the GPS sats, and the WAAS part applies the correction factor.
GBAS is completely different.
A GBAS system is per airport, with at least 3 ant, spaced as far aprt as possible. The GBAS continuously monitors all of the sats avail. The GBAS creates its own correction factor for that location only.
The system broadcasts this correction factor, as well as the code for the final approach for the ac to use. It is a signal broadcast which the ac uses with much the same look alike system as an ILS.
With GBAS, the ac still uses the GPS sats, the GBAS is the correction factor.
Hope that clears it up a bit more.
As noted, there is little hope for WAAS in AUS, but GBAS is a much different story. A typical GBAS unit, installed, is about $3Million per airport. With this you get a max 26 runway ends, and currently cert to Cat I. The signal is accurate enough for CAT III, but it is not cert for it yet. When it does get cert, the system, nor ac will need any mod.
Both Boeing and Airbus offer GBAS at no cost difference on a new ac.