Newbie & Flying Training Advice (Merged)
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,628
Likes: 1,183
From: Aus
Only do the rating with a school that will agree to employ you after completion. If they won't offer some surety of it you could be looking for work for a while after the course. As for getting charter work in states like Victoria its almost non existent for low time pilots, and by the time you have the hours you will be Airline fodder.
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne
Melb training questions... so many....
Options seem to be Moorabbin, Tyabb and Lilydale for me, Moorabbin being the closest. Have a few questions for the group.
# You say Tyabb is unreal, meaning good? If so why? Is it 'better' training, or cheaper or both, better setup?
# Would like to take TIF flights at all these airports to see what suits me best, do the operators get antsy if you do this? I did have a logbook (lost long ago with 1 hour logged) but would like to take one along to each flight to get time logged.
# Is there an online course where I can do all the theory AND EXAMS components required for RPL (and PPL) without doing the flight training first? Is this even possible without starting an actual flight training course?
# Does in-person training become cheaper if you do the theory and exams yourself? Or is DIYing the theory courses expected anyway?
# Lastly, highly subjective, but anyone have recommendations for flight schools in either of these locations???
Thanks in advance!
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 121
Likes: 33
From: Cold, wet and windy
Hiya, new here. Thinking of starting my flight training (RPL to start with) (after 20 years of thinking about it). Not interested in a career in GA, but possibly building a Vans plane or similar in the future... who knows....
Options seem to be Moorabbin, Tyabb and Lilydale for me, Moorabbin being the closest. Have a few questions for the group.
# You say Tyabb is unreal, meaning good? If so why? Is it 'better' training, or cheaper or both, better setup?
# Would like to take TIF flights at all these airports to see what suits me best, do the operators get antsy if you do this? I did have a logbook (lost long ago with 1 hour logged) but would like to take one along to each flight to get time logged.
# Is there an online course where I can do all the theory AND EXAMS components required for RPL (and PPL) without doing the flight training first? Is this even possible without starting an actual flight training course?
# Does in-person training become cheaper if you do the theory and exams yourself? Or is DIYing the theory courses expected anyway?
# Lastly, highly subjective, but anyone have recommendations for flight schools in either of these locations???
Thanks in advance!
Options seem to be Moorabbin, Tyabb and Lilydale for me, Moorabbin being the closest. Have a few questions for the group.
# You say Tyabb is unreal, meaning good? If so why? Is it 'better' training, or cheaper or both, better setup?
# Would like to take TIF flights at all these airports to see what suits me best, do the operators get antsy if you do this? I did have a logbook (lost long ago with 1 hour logged) but would like to take one along to each flight to get time logged.
# Is there an online course where I can do all the theory AND EXAMS components required for RPL (and PPL) without doing the flight training first? Is this even possible without starting an actual flight training course?
# Does in-person training become cheaper if you do the theory and exams yourself? Or is DIYing the theory courses expected anyway?
# Lastly, highly subjective, but anyone have recommendations for flight schools in either of these locations???
Thanks in advance!
Yeah can break down a few, Tyabb, was and in my opinion still has the best culture of any aero club or airfield I’ve ever been to, a real credit to the Melbourne area. It’s surprisingly cheap as well!
Nah operators I’d say love doing TIFs, no shame in a try before you buy, just remember that it’s only a 30min insight into the actual flying side, there will be good days and bad days, just roll with the punches, you’ll get there.
Yep 100% dependant on what you want to do, you can have a crack at RPL/PPL before you’re licensed. While it can be done, I’d strongly advise doing some flying before you attempt them, you’ll wrap your head around the subjects much easier. Check out bob tait for RPL/PPL. Will lessen the cost if you self study but doesn’t hurt to ask for help.
Tyabb and Lilydale are awesome schools, Moorabbin also has its fair share, just be cautious if sausage factories. I’d honestly say if you’re going to build an RV, either or will be a wealth of knowledge.
Sorry for the war and peace, but hope this helps.
Cheers,
M1M
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 274
From: Melbourne, Victoria
Hiya, new here. Thinking of starting my flight training (RPL to start with) (after 20 years of thinking about it). Not interested in a career in GA, but possibly building a Vans plane or similar in the future... who knows....
Options seem to be Moorabbin, Tyabb and Lilydale for me, Moorabbin being the closest. Have a few questions for the group.
# You say Tyabb is unreal, meaning good? If so why? Is it 'better' training, or cheaper or both, better setup?
# Would like to take TIF flights at all these airports to see what suits me best, do the operators get antsy if you do this? I did have a logbook (lost long ago with 1 hour logged) but would like to take one along to each flight to get time logged.
# Is there an online course where I can do all the theory AND EXAMS components required for RPL (and PPL) without doing the flight training first? Is this even possible without starting an actual flight training course?
# Does in-person training become cheaper if you do the theory and exams yourself? Or is DIYing the theory courses expected anyway?
# Lastly, highly subjective, but anyone have recommendations for flight schools in either of these locations???
Options seem to be Moorabbin, Tyabb and Lilydale for me, Moorabbin being the closest. Have a few questions for the group.
# You say Tyabb is unreal, meaning good? If so why? Is it 'better' training, or cheaper or both, better setup?
# Would like to take TIF flights at all these airports to see what suits me best, do the operators get antsy if you do this? I did have a logbook (lost long ago with 1 hour logged) but would like to take one along to each flight to get time logged.
# Is there an online course where I can do all the theory AND EXAMS components required for RPL (and PPL) without doing the flight training first? Is this even possible without starting an actual flight training course?
# Does in-person training become cheaper if you do the theory and exams yourself? Or is DIYing the theory courses expected anyway?
# Lastly, highly subjective, but anyone have recommendations for flight schools in either of these locations???
LSA or GA?? If you're thinking of building an RV (RAAus probably) at some point, then I'd recommend an RAAus RPC first up (the cheapest way to go) and convert that into an RPL on completion. Even if Moorabbin is closest, then although it's a bit further for you to drive, for a great school with friendly staff, Lilydale (LFS) may still be the place for you to start, moving your training to Moorabbin a bit later.
At LFS, you'd start your RPC in either Foxbats or Jabirus (or the Alpha Electro, if electric flight appeals to you!) and move up to their Piper Warriors, Archers, etc. for RPL then PPL as you get hooked. Lilydale also just happens to be on the corner of the main VFR route to everywhere, making navs a bit cheaper plus there are a few SAA builders out there you'd get to know. Nice as they are, if this LSA-to-GA is appealing to you, neither Tyabb nor Moorabbin can offer as many opportunities nor diversity of aircraft as Lilydale does and many pilots (myself included) choose to fly at both Lilydale and Moorabbin for different parts of their training.
High wing or low?? Tyabb fly Cessnas mostly, which leaves Moorabbin. At Moorabbin you have a choice depending on the school you pick. Ideally you want somewhere with an excellent reputation, good instructors and well-maintained aircraft. Staying out of the way of career students rules out CAE-Oxford and LTF... leaving you with either Tristar (Cessnas) or RVAC (Pipers) as the only other places that tick all the boxes.
Course-work? RAAus https://www.raa.asn.au/fly-with-us/ have their own path but Bob Tait's books are the place to start for either. Read up as much as you can and don't be afraid to ask questions. Bob Tait also runs on-line theory courses which are worth doing: https://www.bobtait.com.au/
My 5 cents worth:
1. Organise a TIF in an RAAus registered aircraft at Lilydale and one in a GA aircraft at either Tristar or RVAC.
2. Talk to the instructors about costs and weigh it up.
It will definitely be more expensive to get to RPL at either Moorabbin or Tyabb than Lilydale, but maybe the drive is worth it to you?
https://www.yarravalleyaviation.com.au/
http://www.tristaraviation.com.au/
https://www.rvac.com.au/home
Warning: Flying is addictive. Have fun!
Last edited by PiperCameron; 17th August 2023 at 03:02.
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 176
Likes: 36
From: Melbourne
As a Tyabb club member, there couple of clarifications with regards to the aerodrome/school/club.
There are Cherokee and Sierra, both low wing aircrafts available for training in Tyabb.
There is a Foxbat in Tyabb available for RAAus training, although if you are thinking about "saving $" through RAAus path, in reality that rarely happens.
Location of school and distance for Nav flights is irrelevant. The flying hours count. Actually, only location and travel time from your home to the aerodrome counts.
For you as a builder, you'd probably want to join SAAA. There is a "Tyabb chapter", but I can't find Lilydale chapter which doesn't mean you won't get support from local members in Lilydale area.
...and finally you won't find awesome views of both Port Phillip and Westernport bays after taking off from Tyabb.. priceless
and yeah, Tyabb has its own flaws, but again nobody's perfect..
Welcome, wherever you decide to learn!
There are Cherokee and Sierra, both low wing aircrafts available for training in Tyabb.
There is a Foxbat in Tyabb available for RAAus training, although if you are thinking about "saving $" through RAAus path, in reality that rarely happens.
Location of school and distance for Nav flights is irrelevant. The flying hours count. Actually, only location and travel time from your home to the aerodrome counts.
For you as a builder, you'd probably want to join SAAA. There is a "Tyabb chapter", but I can't find Lilydale chapter which doesn't mean you won't get support from local members in Lilydale area.
...and finally you won't find awesome views of both Port Phillip and Westernport bays after taking off from Tyabb.. priceless
and yeah, Tyabb has its own flaws, but again nobody's perfect..
Welcome, wherever you decide to learn!
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,210
Likes: 56
From: Melbourne, Australia
Both RVAC and LTF have Slings. RVAC also has Cessna 152s.
Consider Coldstream.
Visit a shortlist of schools and talk to the instructors. Choice of instructor is very important.
Do a TIF or two after that.
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne
Thanks everyone. Really appreciate the info. Spoken with a few friends, one who has built an RV already.
# RPC vs RPL can be done to save a little money, but maybe not as much as I've been thinking. So will go with RPL as no issues with medical. Can do training in a smaller aircraft as well to save money.
# Do flight training 'quickly', i.e. don't leave huge gaps otherwise it will take longer.
# Finding a good instructor is important. However sometimes another instructor in the same school can teach you something you are stuck on
# Do a few TIF at the airports you can easily get to, ask lots of questions,
# Reasonably double min 25 hours if you want to pass comfortably.
Will start down the research path with aim to do RLP over Spring/Summer.... hopefully!
RV stuff, well that's another discussion, but hopefully it happens.
# RPC vs RPL can be done to save a little money, but maybe not as much as I've been thinking. So will go with RPL as no issues with medical. Can do training in a smaller aircraft as well to save money.
# Do flight training 'quickly', i.e. don't leave huge gaps otherwise it will take longer.
# Finding a good instructor is important. However sometimes another instructor in the same school can teach you something you are stuck on
# Do a few TIF at the airports you can easily get to, ask lots of questions,
# Reasonably double min 25 hours if you want to pass comfortably.
Will start down the research path with aim to do RLP over Spring/Summer.... hopefully!
RV stuff, well that's another discussion, but hopefully it happens.
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne
Seeking advice for becoming commercial pilot after Yr 12
Hi all,
I am at the stage in my life where I need to make the decision for applying to universities as I am nearing completion of year 12.
However, I have had the passion for flying commercially for many years and with uncertainty in the industry of getting jobs from being a fresh CPL student, I am really stuck with what to choose. I am currently looking to do the Swinburne Bachelor of Aviation course, or the Bachelor of Information Technology and later look to fly in my free time and build enough hours (as a flight instructor if I did flight school) to apply to airlines or other charter companies. I also currently hold no pilot license.
I have also been researching the Qantas Pilot Academy program to see if this is another potential option to get my foot into the aviation industry as a pilot.
I would really appreciate advice on the best way to approach this.
I am at the stage in my life where I need to make the decision for applying to universities as I am nearing completion of year 12.
However, I have had the passion for flying commercially for many years and with uncertainty in the industry of getting jobs from being a fresh CPL student, I am really stuck with what to choose. I am currently looking to do the Swinburne Bachelor of Aviation course, or the Bachelor of Information Technology and later look to fly in my free time and build enough hours (as a flight instructor if I did flight school) to apply to airlines or other charter companies. I also currently hold no pilot license.
I have also been researching the Qantas Pilot Academy program to see if this is another potential option to get my foot into the aviation industry as a pilot.
I would really appreciate advice on the best way to approach this.
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 274
From: Melbourne, Victoria
Hi all,
I am at the stage in my life where I need to make the decision for applying to universities as I am nearing completion of year 12.
However, I have had the passion for flying commercially for many years and with uncertainty in the industry of getting jobs from being a fresh CPL student, I am really stuck with what to choose. I am currently looking to do the Swinburne Bachelor of Aviation course, or the Bachelor of Information Technology and later look to fly in my free time and build enough hours (as a flight instructor if I did flight school) to apply to airlines or other charter companies. I also currently hold no pilot license.
I have also been researching the Qantas Pilot Academy program to see if this is another potential option to get my foot into the aviation industry as a pilot.
I would really appreciate advice on the best way to approach this.
I am at the stage in my life where I need to make the decision for applying to universities as I am nearing completion of year 12.
However, I have had the passion for flying commercially for many years and with uncertainty in the industry of getting jobs from being a fresh CPL student, I am really stuck with what to choose. I am currently looking to do the Swinburne Bachelor of Aviation course, or the Bachelor of Information Technology and later look to fly in my free time and build enough hours (as a flight instructor if I did flight school) to apply to airlines or other charter companies. I also currently hold no pilot license.
I have also been researching the Qantas Pilot Academy program to see if this is another potential option to get my foot into the aviation industry as a pilot.
I would really appreciate advice on the best way to approach this.
With pilots in high demand both now and projected to remain so into the future, the world is your oyster right now. Good luck and I wish you well on your journey - it's an exciting one!
Joined: Sep 2022
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Melb
Hey all
Just a couple of questions about the sorta unknown Moorabbin Flying Services Airline career/cadetship program.
Does anyone have any adivce on the program/information as it is hard to find anything relating too it and find any past students of the course.
Thanks
Just a couple of questions about the sorta unknown Moorabbin Flying Services Airline career/cadetship program.
Does anyone have any adivce on the program/information as it is hard to find anything relating too it and find any past students of the course.
Thanks
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 274
From: Melbourne, Victoria
What exactly are you wanting to know? I haven't had anything to do with MFS for a couple of years now, but someone else here might be able to help.
Joined: Sep 2022
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Melb
Unfortunately I didnt attend the information session as I found out about the program 2 weeks ago as I drove past thier office and saw a sign advertising the airline cadetship.
Im just a bit sceptical when it comes to the program as it isnt mentioned on their website. Like is this program/opportunity of a job with up companies up north and Southern given to the average Joe who comes in and wants to get his CPL or is it like the actual cadetships where when you sign up for the specific program and only those kids in the program get given the opportunity for those jobs.
Its making me think back to the qantas academy with FTA and how you are placed in a "pool of candidates" for a potential job with qantas as if there arent like 500 graduates still waiting for that call from qantas.
Im just a bit sceptical when it comes to the program as it isnt mentioned on their website. Like is this program/opportunity of a job with up companies up north and Southern given to the average Joe who comes in and wants to get his CPL or is it like the actual cadetships where when you sign up for the specific program and only those kids in the program get given the opportunity for those jobs.
Its making me think back to the qantas academy with FTA and how you are placed in a "pool of candidates" for a potential job with qantas as if there arent like 500 graduates still waiting for that call from qantas.
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 274
From: Melbourne, Victoria
Unfortunately I didnt attend the information session as I found out about the program 2 weeks ago as I drove past thier office and saw a sign advertising the airline cadetship.
Im just a bit sceptical when it comes to the program as it isnt mentioned on their website. Like is this program/opportunity of a job with up companies up north and Southern given to the average Joe who comes in and wants to get his CPL or is it like the actual cadetships where when you sign up for the specific program and only those kids in the program get given the opportunity for those jobs.
Im just a bit sceptical when it comes to the program as it isnt mentioned on their website. Like is this program/opportunity of a job with up companies up north and Southern given to the average Joe who comes in and wants to get his CPL or is it like the actual cadetships where when you sign up for the specific program and only those kids in the program get given the opportunity for those jobs.
If you're interested in a cadetship, I'd strongly suggest stopping by and asking them - they're a nice bunch and I'm sure they'd be happy to answer any questions you have. :-)
Joined: Dec 2023
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne
Grade 3 instructor first job....help
Hey, Just finished a g3 instructor rating (it was fun) and all on vet-fee-help. I also studied more training endorsements to really stand out in my resume. I did the DFE and Instrument training endorsements to make my Grade 3 ticket stand out from many dozens getting pumped out of my school. It's been 8 months and nobody is responding (i've tried Aero clubs across the country). My debt sits at around $55,000 NOT including the ppl/cpl/me ir lol. The $55k is just for the instructor qualifications. Will take any feedback/tips/ideas. Cheers, Brock.
p.s. my total vet debt is around $140,000. I cannot even look at my balance when I login. And NO JOB.
p.s. my total vet debt is around $140,000. I cannot even look at my balance when I login. And NO JOB.
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 20
Likes: 8
From: Perth
Hey, Just finished a g3 instructor rating (it was fun) and all on vet-fee-help. I also studied more training endorsements to really stand out in my resume. I did the DFE and Instrument training endorsements to make my Grade 3 ticket stand out from many dozens getting pumped out of my school. It's been 8 months and nobody is responding (i've tried Aero clubs across the country). My debt sits at around $55,000 NOT including the ppl/cpl/me ir lol. The $55k is just for the instructor qualifications. Will take any feedback/tips/ideas. Cheers, Brock.
p.s. my total vet debt is around $140,000. I cannot even look at my balance when I login. And NO JOB.
p.s. my total vet debt is around $140,000. I cannot even look at my balance when I login. And NO JOB.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 602
From: Australia
That is an eye watering amount of money. It does worry me how many people are clocking up these massive debts with indexation at 7.1%, That's $9940 a year added if you don't pay any off this year. On a typical instructor's starting salary you would pay off maybe $1400 a year, the rest compounds.
A good way to stand out on a resume s to have more PIC time and diverse exerience than the other applicants.
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 37
Likes: 12
From: G.S.L.
That is an eye watering amount of money. It does worry me how many people are clocking up these massive debts with indexation at 7.1%, That's $9940 a year added if you don't pay any off this year. On a typical instructor's starting salary you would pay off maybe $1400 a year, the rest compounds.
A good way to stand out on a resume s to have more PIC time and diverse exerience than the other applicants.
A good way to stand out on a resume s to have more PIC time and diverse exerience than the other applicants.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 302
Likes: 39
Curious how much IF time you had laminar before adding it to your new shiny Grade 3. In my honest opinion if you had only just got an IR then I would demand my money back from the school that sold you something most flying school HOO would say is worthless. This is my opinion only but getting instructors with little experience in instructing and IF flying in the real world is dangerous and will probably not give the students the best value for money. My opinion only is that it doesn’t add value to your Grade 3 and make you more employable. DFE is good (used to come automatically with a Grade 3). Unfortunately as has been stated in other threads, the majority of schools hire instructors they have trained. Until you get a Grade 2 it’s a hard slog getting an instructing gig.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 602
From: Australia
Flying schools exist for one reason, to sell flying courses. The bigger they are and the more qualifications they can sell you the richer they get and the VET system has made this very easy for them, because if the students were using their own instead of taxpayers money they might do more market research and look outside into the real world.. Of course they will tell you that you need to spend more and more money! For an analogy, If you ask a shop that sells very expensive things, say JB HiFi, for advice on what to buy then of course they will sell you the most expensive items, they don't care whether you need them, if you know how to use them or what you do with them once you have left the shop because they are already waiting to sell to the next person who walks in.
It's too late now but if you had spent that money on getting command time you would be miles ahead of the others. But of course you have to use your own hard-earned for that!
If I was employing Grade threes (I don't bother any more because they get snapped up by the big shiny schools as soon as they get Grade 2, so all the mentoring is a waste of time) I would be looking for the following:
How much relevant command time do they have ie Day VFR single engine?
Have they built their hours getting good and varied experience around the country or have they just drilled holes in the sky within 150nm of home, never pushing any boundaries?
Are they someone who would fit into the team and be great to work with?
Outstanding achievements in other areas, leadership and decision making roles?
Do they have work experience in teaching, customer service, retail or other face to face roles with clients?
Do they have the courtesy to research the school enough to contact the HOO by name to request an appointment or do they dress up in full pilot costume and drop off a resume addressed to "Dear Sir" expect the HOO to drop everything and see them? (Hint: this is how to ensure your resume goes straight into the bin)
All the IR, Multi etc are "Chocolate Teapots" for a Grade 3 and expensive to keep current.
It's too late now but if you had spent that money on getting command time you would be miles ahead of the others. But of course you have to use your own hard-earned for that!
If I was employing Grade threes (I don't bother any more because they get snapped up by the big shiny schools as soon as they get Grade 2, so all the mentoring is a waste of time) I would be looking for the following:
How much relevant command time do they have ie Day VFR single engine?
Have they built their hours getting good and varied experience around the country or have they just drilled holes in the sky within 150nm of home, never pushing any boundaries?
Are they someone who would fit into the team and be great to work with?
Outstanding achievements in other areas, leadership and decision making roles?
Do they have work experience in teaching, customer service, retail or other face to face roles with clients?
Do they have the courtesy to research the school enough to contact the HOO by name to request an appointment or do they dress up in full pilot costume and drop off a resume addressed to "Dear Sir" expect the HOO to drop everything and see them? (Hint: this is how to ensure your resume goes straight into the bin)
All the IR, Multi etc are "Chocolate Teapots" for a Grade 3 and expensive to keep current.
