Newbie & Flying Training Advice (Merged)
Joined: Dec 2023
Posts: 1,150
Likes: 889
From: Oz
Generally is three age brackets for those job hunting. This is from past experience running a GA outfit looking over what seemed like a billion resumes coming through the door each year.
20-30yrs 95%
30-40yrs 4%
40-50yrs 1%
Our preferred candidate age was someone in the second bracket. Sadly they just didn’t exist. And the last bracket, they most certainly did not exist.
The interesting thing was, the more ‘creative’ and interesting CVs, came from the second and third bracket. Past life experience is of interest to myself in addition to flying skills. When my admin said she had a mid 30s boy or girls resume in her hand, my ears picked up, only get a couple a year. All resumes from 20 year olds are the same, most of them have no life experience and cannot even have a decent conversation with you, let alone dress appropriately for an interview. I hired the 35 yr old who then became the CP, and many years later is now a Training Captain on the Airbus at a bigger outfit.
20-30yrs 95%
30-40yrs 4%
40-50yrs 1%
Our preferred candidate age was someone in the second bracket. Sadly they just didn’t exist. And the last bracket, they most certainly did not exist.
The interesting thing was, the more ‘creative’ and interesting CVs, came from the second and third bracket. Past life experience is of interest to myself in addition to flying skills. When my admin said she had a mid 30s boy or girls resume in her hand, my ears picked up, only get a couple a year. All resumes from 20 year olds are the same, most of them have no life experience and cannot even have a decent conversation with you, let alone dress appropriately for an interview. I hired the 35 yr old who then became the CP, and many years later is now a Training Captain on the Airbus at a bigger outfit.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 602
From: Australia
Hi All,
I am considering, late in life (aviation-wise) to change career and train to become a commercial pilot. This is something I was on a path to do towards the end of high school. For one reason or another, other ideas became more interesting and I had largely forgotten about flying. I am now, at the age of 44 considering entering an integrated CPL course. Time-wise I think it is either now or never. I have done a great deal of reading and feel I have a grasp of what is required and the potential challenges. My interest stems from looking to challenge myself with a specific and new skill set and perhaps a little sense of adventure. A new path.
As far as I can see right now - what I would like to work towards is flying a jet of some kind, or at least a "larger aircraft", ie not GA forever. Could be corporate, RPT, freight or something else.
I have some concerns, and what I am missing is real-world (constructive) career advice from pilots or aviation professionals operating in Australia. Given the above and assuming my aptitude is suitable and I put in the hard work required to succeed, my concerns are:
1. Being stuck in the outback, remote or regional Australia forever. 1-3 years, ok I would look on it as something new and no doubt there would be experiences to be had. However this is not where I aim to be long-term.
2. As an newly qualified CPL, seeking first jobs and being exposed to operators with a dubious attitude towards safety.
3. Age is something I cannot change. Assuming qualified CPL at age 45, how far could I go assuming continued perseverance re qualifications and experience? I spoke to one pilot who suggested that given my current age the end of the road for me was most likely flying a C208. Any thoughts?
** Points 1 and 2 assume a GA route. Happy to hear any thoughts on an instructor route.
My questions are genuine. If I have offended or suggested something foolish, well that is why I am here - to discuss and seek advice from those with knowledge and experience. Perhaps some of the questions require a crystal ball to answer with certainty. So my thanks in advance for your time, consideration and any advice you are able to offer.
I am considering, late in life (aviation-wise) to change career and train to become a commercial pilot. This is something I was on a path to do towards the end of high school. For one reason or another, other ideas became more interesting and I had largely forgotten about flying. I am now, at the age of 44 considering entering an integrated CPL course. Time-wise I think it is either now or never. I have done a great deal of reading and feel I have a grasp of what is required and the potential challenges. My interest stems from looking to challenge myself with a specific and new skill set and perhaps a little sense of adventure. A new path.
As far as I can see right now - what I would like to work towards is flying a jet of some kind, or at least a "larger aircraft", ie not GA forever. Could be corporate, RPT, freight or something else.
I have some concerns, and what I am missing is real-world (constructive) career advice from pilots or aviation professionals operating in Australia. Given the above and assuming my aptitude is suitable and I put in the hard work required to succeed, my concerns are:
1. Being stuck in the outback, remote or regional Australia forever. 1-3 years, ok I would look on it as something new and no doubt there would be experiences to be had. However this is not where I aim to be long-term.
2. As an newly qualified CPL, seeking first jobs and being exposed to operators with a dubious attitude towards safety.
3. Age is something I cannot change. Assuming qualified CPL at age 45, how far could I go assuming continued perseverance re qualifications and experience? I spoke to one pilot who suggested that given my current age the end of the road for me was most likely flying a C208. Any thoughts?
** Points 1 and 2 assume a GA route. Happy to hear any thoughts on an instructor route.
My questions are genuine. If I have offended or suggested something foolish, well that is why I am here - to discuss and seek advice from those with knowledge and experience. Perhaps some of the questions require a crystal ball to answer with certainty. So my thanks in advance for your time, consideration and any advice you are able to offer.
Many of my grads go on to do survey work, that can be interesting and again they need people who will stick around.
I wouldn't recommend an integrated course personally as you don't have enough command hours when you finish to be of any use to anyone. Also you might find being in a classroom with people much younger to be frustrating at times (I speak as someone doing a uni course in my 60s) Spend half as much and go non-integrated, build up your hours and add ratings when you need them, don't spend money on things you won't be using for years, if ever.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 793
Likes: 297
From: sierra village
Burroughs: Assuming you are financially comfortable and have a supportive family - Go for it. No one can predict where the industry will be in 2 years time or what your career or job prospects might be. With regard to training, do exactly as Clare Prop suggests, avoid the pay up front sausage factories.
What I can tell you is that unless you’re one of the very lucky few, it will be a dispiriting path with appallingly poor pay and work conditions. Check out the GA awards and you will come to the conclusion that’ stacking supermarket shelves is a more lucrative occupation than the majority of GA jobs. If you can’t live with that harsh reality, go learn to fly anyway, buy your own aircraft and just enjoy “ slipping the surly bonds of Earth. And dancing the skies on laughter”
What I can tell you is that unless you’re one of the very lucky few, it will be a dispiriting path with appallingly poor pay and work conditions. Check out the GA awards and you will come to the conclusion that’ stacking supermarket shelves is a more lucrative occupation than the majority of GA jobs. If you can’t live with that harsh reality, go learn to fly anyway, buy your own aircraft and just enjoy “ slipping the surly bonds of Earth. And dancing the skies on laughter”
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 11
Likes: 2
From: Australia
In my opinion the GA pathway in Australia is not worth it, there's limited opportunities and progression is far too slow. Do you really want to spend upwards of $80k to fly clapped out 210's and maybe a piston twin or caravan if you are lucky, or at worst not find employment at all (there's a lot of CPL holders who never find work)? If you make it through 5 years of that, you then have to compete with cadets for regional jobs...
If you can justify a few years in the USA, I'd suggest doing your training there with one of the schools that feed the regional airlines. They pretty much offer the full pathway from zero to RHS of a jet, including placements for the hours to meet their ATPL requirements. The other advantage with the US is their GA industry is huge and they don't have this approach to aviation where anything bigger than a Seminole is treated as if it were the space shuttle in terms of complexity. If you did want to go down the GA charter path over there, there are lots more opportunities to fly king airs or small business jets at 500-1000hrs which is simply not going to happen in Aus. This is all much easier now that Australians can access the E3 visa.
You can always do a few years over there, build up your hours quickly and return to a job here.
If you can justify a few years in the USA, I'd suggest doing your training there with one of the schools that feed the regional airlines. They pretty much offer the full pathway from zero to RHS of a jet, including placements for the hours to meet their ATPL requirements. The other advantage with the US is their GA industry is huge and they don't have this approach to aviation where anything bigger than a Seminole is treated as if it were the space shuttle in terms of complexity. If you did want to go down the GA charter path over there, there are lots more opportunities to fly king airs or small business jets at 500-1000hrs which is simply not going to happen in Aus. This is all much easier now that Australians can access the E3 visa.
You can always do a few years over there, build up your hours quickly and return to a job here.
Joined: Apr 2023
Posts: 18
Likes: 1
From: Brisbane
In my opinion the GA pathway in Australia is not worth it, there's limited opportunities and progression is far too slow. Do you really want to spend upwards of $80k to fly clapped out 210's and maybe a piston twin or caravan if you are lucky, or at worst not find employment at all (there's a lot of CPL holders who never find work)? If you make it through 5 years of that, you then have to compete with cadets for regional jobs...
If you can justify a few years in the USA, I'd suggest doing your training there with one of the schools that feed the regional airlines. They pretty much offer the full pathway from zero to RHS of a jet, including placements for the hours to meet their ATPL requirements. The other advantage with the US is their GA industry is huge and they don't have this approach to aviation where anything bigger than a Seminole is treated as if it were the space shuttle in terms of complexity. If you did want to go down the GA charter path over there, there are lots more opportunities to fly king airs or small business jets at 500-1000hrs which is simply not going to happen in Aus. This is all much easier now that Australians can access the E3 visa.
You can always do a few years over there, build up your hours quickly and return to a job here.
If you can justify a few years in the USA, I'd suggest doing your training there with one of the schools that feed the regional airlines. They pretty much offer the full pathway from zero to RHS of a jet, including placements for the hours to meet their ATPL requirements. The other advantage with the US is their GA industry is huge and they don't have this approach to aviation where anything bigger than a Seminole is treated as if it were the space shuttle in terms of complexity. If you did want to go down the GA charter path over there, there are lots more opportunities to fly king airs or small business jets at 500-1000hrs which is simply not going to happen in Aus. This is all much easier now that Australians can access the E3 visa.
You can always do a few years over there, build up your hours quickly and return to a job here.
This is an extremely viable option but I don’t think that US flight schools will sponsor a visa as an Australian. I’m Interested to hear what other people think about it though.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 857
Likes: 30
From: The Ponderosa
I’ve been doing some similar research for my son who is looking at becoming a Pilot. I found www.oziflyer.com an interesting option. I hope that helps👍
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 274
From: Melbourne, Victoria
I’ve been doing some similar research for my son who is looking at becoming a Pilot. I found www.oziflyer.com an interesting option. I hope that helps👍
Think of this as a good start.. he'll need to work it out from there himself. Good luck.
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 11
Likes: 2
From: Australia
I don’t think that US flight schools will sponsor a visa as an Australian
This is pretty much what happens in Aus with uni degrees, international students come here, do their degree and are given a couple of years working rights on completion. That's usually enough for them to find either a longer term sponsor or start the permanent resident process.
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 274
From: Melbourne, Victoria
Look into it, but my understanding is that so long as you do the training with them (or FAA conversion of an existing license + instructor ratings), they will sponsor your employment you as an instructor up to at least the ATPL hours. Some of the visas for training also include a couple of years working rights post completion of your training.
No, it's far safer/better in the long run to find your own way there on a tourist visa, go meet up with the folks from AOPA.org (or similar) and see what the go is for yourself.
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 11
Likes: 2
From: Australia
The issue then is, what happens if you don't complete your training with them? For any reason: eg. you find out the school is dodgy/overcharging you, the CFII is a maniac/drill sergeant, they have no aircraft available or you just plain feel unsafe. It would be really easy to get over there and find all the promises simply evaporate and you get kicked out of the country as an "illegal alien"
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne
Hi Guys,
I'm looking for a change in career, i'm 37, married to a wife who support all my decisions and hobbies, father of one, i work in a large corporate company that pays very well but to be honest i am well and truly over it, i'm thinking of obtaining my CPL (A) or (H) and trying to make a go of it, i understand i will have to start from the bottom and be paid accordingly but the money is not an issue at this stage in my life. At 37 realistically if i give it all i have and obtain my license i will be 38, what are the real chances of getting a job at that age?
Also can someone recommend some good Schools in Melbourne to look at?
Thanks!
I'm looking for a change in career, i'm 37, married to a wife who support all my decisions and hobbies, father of one, i work in a large corporate company that pays very well but to be honest i am well and truly over it, i'm thinking of obtaining my CPL (A) or (H) and trying to make a go of it, i understand i will have to start from the bottom and be paid accordingly but the money is not an issue at this stage in my life. At 37 realistically if i give it all i have and obtain my license i will be 38, what are the real chances of getting a job at that age?
Also can someone recommend some good Schools in Melbourne to look at?
Thanks!
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 274
From: Melbourne, Victoria
Hi Guys,
I'm looking for a change in career, i'm 37, married to a wife who support all my decisions and hobbies, father of one, i work in a large corporate company that pays very well but to be honest i am well and truly over it, i'm thinking of obtaining my CPL (A) or (H) and trying to make a go of it, i understand i will have to start from the bottom and be paid accordingly but the money is not an issue at this stage in my life. At 37 realistically if i give it all i have and obtain my license i will be 38, what are the real chances of getting a job at that age?
I'm looking for a change in career, i'm 37, married to a wife who support all my decisions and hobbies, father of one, i work in a large corporate company that pays very well but to be honest i am well and truly over it, i'm thinking of obtaining my CPL (A) or (H) and trying to make a go of it, i understand i will have to start from the bottom and be paid accordingly but the money is not an issue at this stage in my life. At 37 realistically if i give it all i have and obtain my license i will be 38, what are the real chances of getting a job at that age?
Do you have a PPL or are you starting from scratch? Presuming you already have a PPL, check out Bini's or Base Aviation at Moorabbin or Lilydale Flying School if you're out that way.
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne
With a good work ethic and a bit more life experience than some of the others going through, I'd say you have a very real chance of making a go of it (outside of the usual airline conveyor that is) so long as you're willing to leave the big smoke also. Corporate charter, survey, running a flight school someplace.. Australia is your oyster. Go for it.
Do you have a PPL or are you starting from scratch? Presuming you already have a PPL, check out Bini's or Base Aviation at Moorabbin or Lilydale Flying School if you're out that way.
Do you have a PPL or are you starting from scratch? Presuming you already have a PPL, check out Bini's or Base Aviation at Moorabbin or Lilydale Flying School if you're out that way.
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Sydney
If you think you could be interested in instructing there are great careers doing that for people who are tenacious and mature. There is definately a gap in the market for older wiser instructors with life experience as a bonus to pass on to thier students, people who will get to the top and stay there, not nick off as soon as a shiny jet beckons. You need to want to teach and be patient as it's a career that can start off quite slowly but the rewards at the top are great. As an employer of instructors my ideal age would be someone in their 30s upwards. Plus you will not be out in woop-woop.
Many of my grads go on to do survey work, that can be interesting and again they need people who will stick around.
I wouldn't recommend an integrated course personally as you don't have enough command hours when you finish to be of any use to anyone. Also you might find being in a classroom with people much younger to be frustrating at times (I speak as someone doing a uni course in my 60s) Spend half as much and go non-integrated, build up your hours and add ratings when you need them, don't spend money on things you won't be using for years, if ever.
Many of my grads go on to do survey work, that can be interesting and again they need people who will stick around.
I wouldn't recommend an integrated course personally as you don't have enough command hours when you finish to be of any use to anyone. Also you might find being in a classroom with people much younger to be frustrating at times (I speak as someone doing a uni course in my 60s) Spend half as much and go non-integrated, build up your hours and add ratings when you need them, don't spend money on things you won't be using for years, if ever.
Thanks for your thoughts. I have great respect for brilliant teachers and the difference they can make in the lives of their students. Unfortunately instructing is really not where I see myself in aviation.
All the best for your uni course. Yes, I find many people frustrating. Hopefully there a a few there that are also inspiring or at least interesting.
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Sydney
Generally is three age brackets for those job hunting. This is from past experience running a GA outfit looking over what seemed like a billion resumes coming through the door each year.
20-30yrs 95%
30-40yrs 4%
40-50yrs 1%
Our preferred candidate age was someone in the second bracket. Sadly they just didn’t exist. And the last bracket, they most certainly did not exist.
The interesting thing was, the more ‘creative’ and interesting CVs, came from the second and third bracket. Past life experience is of interest to myself in addition to flying skills. When my admin said she had a mid 30s boy or girls resume in her hand, my ears picked up, only get a couple a year. All resumes from 20 year olds are the same, most of them have no life experience and cannot even have a decent conversation with you, let alone dress appropriately for an interview. I hired the 35 yr old who then became the CP, and many years later is now a Training Captain on the Airbus at a bigger outfit.
20-30yrs 95%
30-40yrs 4%
40-50yrs 1%
Our preferred candidate age was someone in the second bracket. Sadly they just didn’t exist. And the last bracket, they most certainly did not exist.
The interesting thing was, the more ‘creative’ and interesting CVs, came from the second and third bracket. Past life experience is of interest to myself in addition to flying skills. When my admin said she had a mid 30s boy or girls resume in her hand, my ears picked up, only get a couple a year. All resumes from 20 year olds are the same, most of them have no life experience and cannot even have a decent conversation with you, let alone dress appropriately for an interview. I hired the 35 yr old who then became the CP, and many years later is now a Training Captain on the Airbus at a bigger outfit.
Thanks for your reply and positivity. That being said, I get the distinct impression that I would have to extraordinarily lucky to get anywhere near where I would like to end up. Or, to put it another way, I am most likely to end up exactly where I don't want to be. If it was just a matter of having a go, that would be one thing. But the potential life-changing effects (financial and personal) seem a great risk for an endeavor relying on luck rather than perseverance.
Hopefully I'm not being pessimistic here. Rather, going on the experience of others as far as what Australian aviation currently is and is not. Another time, another place maybe. It is a shame, but I can live without being a pilot.
All the best.
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Sydney
My advice to you is do not do it. First hurdle is getting a job. There are literally hundreds of younger people in front of you already. Many will offer to work for free and not complain.
Accommodation in outback towns is generally poor and the pay even worse.
In the short time I was in GA it seemed more like a high school popularity contest than professional job.
Yes your age will work against you. Old people complain is what i was told. Leave it to the 21 year olds.
Accommodation in outback towns is generally poor and the pay even worse.
In the short time I was in GA it seemed more like a high school popularity contest than professional job.
Yes your age will work against you. Old people complain is what i was told. Leave it to the 21 year olds.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. Will put you firmly as a +1 in the Concerns Confirmed camp.
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 274
From: Melbourne, Victoria
* Tristar (Moorabbin) - for that larger flight-school feeling whilst still being treated as an individual
* Oasis Flight Training (Moorabbin) - for one-on-one with a highly experienced instructor
* Lilydale Flight School - grass strip country
There are others of course, but that's 3 to start.
If it's been a while, book a TIF with each and see how you feel. Enjoy the journey - you won't regret it!
Joined: Apr 2024
Posts: 4
Likes: 1
From: Australia
MECIR Moorabbin or elsewhere
G’day everyone,
I’m have a CPL with around 300 hours or so with the normal stuff like NVFR,Multi engine rating and CSU/Retractable. After having a big break from flying of a few years, I have recently got back on board. Unfortunately for me I’m not in a position to give up my trade and try to pursue flying as a full time career at this current time. However I have been toying with the idea of doing my CIR as I’ve just completed the IREX and then potentially doing some kind of part time flying,whether that be trying to get some hours on weekends doing skydive ops or another path if the opportunity where to arise. My thoughts are that when I’m ready to step away from the tools I would have some kind of experience and would have built some hours that would make me more employable for whatever path I take then.
I am wondering where to do my CIR training? I’ve done all my training at a small school in Melbourne that has changed significantly in the last few years and I’m looking to do what’s best for me. I’ve been wondering about Moorabbin as it’s full of operators and flight training schools which could be a great opportunity for the Networking side of things as I’ve never really done much of this. Also I’ve read a lot about what aircraft to do it in. Would I be best looking for a school that has something like a Baron as a pose to a Seminole to get experience and hours on?
can anyone suggest places to do the CIR and what type of aircraft would be a wise choice for someone like myself. Cheers
I’m have a CPL with around 300 hours or so with the normal stuff like NVFR,Multi engine rating and CSU/Retractable. After having a big break from flying of a few years, I have recently got back on board. Unfortunately for me I’m not in a position to give up my trade and try to pursue flying as a full time career at this current time. However I have been toying with the idea of doing my CIR as I’ve just completed the IREX and then potentially doing some kind of part time flying,whether that be trying to get some hours on weekends doing skydive ops or another path if the opportunity where to arise. My thoughts are that when I’m ready to step away from the tools I would have some kind of experience and would have built some hours that would make me more employable for whatever path I take then.
I am wondering where to do my CIR training? I’ve done all my training at a small school in Melbourne that has changed significantly in the last few years and I’m looking to do what’s best for me. I’ve been wondering about Moorabbin as it’s full of operators and flight training schools which could be a great opportunity for the Networking side of things as I’ve never really done much of this. Also I’ve read a lot about what aircraft to do it in. Would I be best looking for a school that has something like a Baron as a pose to a Seminole to get experience and hours on?
can anyone suggest places to do the CIR and what type of aircraft would be a wise choice for someone like myself. Cheers
Last edited by Goneflying85; 20th April 2024 at 22:32.
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
From: Australia
Joined: Sep 2017
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 198
Likes: 93
From: Living out of a suitcase
That's a little bit harsh. You got delivered the service you paid for, that being CPL/IR? Aviation jobs will always be competitive, whether it's your first grass-roots job or an airline job, and no-one can guarantee you a job. People will make the most of the opportunities they're given.