MERGED: Jetstar Pilot Cadet Program
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Your Cadet scheme is merely for Gen Y who are too farrrking lazy to actually go and earn their career, OR, for older guys/girls who may not have the option to go out bush because of family (no problem with that, I completely understand).
I could just as equally say someone who didnt put in any effort, didn't make it into the cadetship and is now having to go down the GA path is lazy, but I won't. Everyone is different, and it's ignorant to make these types of sweeping statements.
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FLGOFF
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 17
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 17
Posts: 8]
I could just as equally say someone who didnt put in any effort, didn't make it into the cadetship and is now having to go down the GA path is lazy, but I won't. Everyone is different, and it's ignorant to make these types of sweeping statements
morno
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Uni's , the ADF see poor school grades as either a lack of ability or laziness make no mistake. Nobody wants lazy people who at times choose not to give their best on their books. The top Unis only want the top 10% of year 12 grads.
Sure the ADF will take on people who school didn't go well for as Pilots / Officers , but in a competitive sense you are going to be behind the eight ball and it is going to take some explaining. Same for QF when they hired , vast majority really quite strong year 12s.
Everyone knows the Pilot Academics aren't much, that is why people with a year 10 education can get through ATPLs in a few months - there just ain't a whole lot there. And if you think there is - well you just haven't been alive. So Morno I wouldn't be growing that having "go the ATPLs" equates to any earth shattering academic achievement.
I think you guys are referring to pre-GFC boom-times in terms of transitioning to an airline - you talk like you can just say "I shall have an airline job now thank you". No so simple over last two years , QF zip , Virgin zip, J* - maybe 50 a year at best - going mainly to cadets as we know , Tiger bit of a trickle.
Then have a look at the market in Aust , 85 dash 8s , 50 metros , 60 Saabs , 20 Braz's , 20 ATRs , 20 Fokker 50s , 130 King Airs , 50 Conquests etc etc etc. So likely 3000 regional/corporate pilots with significant turbo/ high perf piston time. That is a lot of applications.
Then there is the ADF , graduates about 120 per year into the squadrons, which in good times mean 100 plus per annum leaving. Not so now , all squadrons significantly overstocked , aside from FJ.
Then you will also be competing against those aussies wishing to return from OS.
Quite likely the Jetstar option will go, as it is the logical destination for QF to send surplus numbers to.
Almost all of the "first airline" jobs in Asia seem to have gone now as well.
So in the current context I would think that for the less than one hundred jet jobs in Australia the hard data says there are thousands of qualified applicants. At best an applicant might have say a one in twenty chance - 5%
Sure the ADF will take on people who school didn't go well for as Pilots / Officers , but in a competitive sense you are going to be behind the eight ball and it is going to take some explaining. Same for QF when they hired , vast majority really quite strong year 12s.
Everyone knows the Pilot Academics aren't much, that is why people with a year 10 education can get through ATPLs in a few months - there just ain't a whole lot there. And if you think there is - well you just haven't been alive. So Morno I wouldn't be growing that having "go the ATPLs" equates to any earth shattering academic achievement.
I think you guys are referring to pre-GFC boom-times in terms of transitioning to an airline - you talk like you can just say "I shall have an airline job now thank you". No so simple over last two years , QF zip , Virgin zip, J* - maybe 50 a year at best - going mainly to cadets as we know , Tiger bit of a trickle.
Then have a look at the market in Aust , 85 dash 8s , 50 metros , 60 Saabs , 20 Braz's , 20 ATRs , 20 Fokker 50s , 130 King Airs , 50 Conquests etc etc etc. So likely 3000 regional/corporate pilots with significant turbo/ high perf piston time. That is a lot of applications.
Then there is the ADF , graduates about 120 per year into the squadrons, which in good times mean 100 plus per annum leaving. Not so now , all squadrons significantly overstocked , aside from FJ.
Then you will also be competing against those aussies wishing to return from OS.
Quite likely the Jetstar option will go, as it is the logical destination for QF to send surplus numbers to.
Almost all of the "first airline" jobs in Asia seem to have gone now as well.
So in the current context I would think that for the less than one hundred jet jobs in Australia the hard data says there are thousands of qualified applicants. At best an applicant might have say a one in twenty chance - 5%
Couple of points.
1. I never said anything about academic success when I referred to 'doing the hard yards' in my career. There's a lot more to a successful aviation career than just reading some books and doing some exams. However, if you're a cadet, I can understand that you can't understand this.
2. The times of which I speak, are very recent.
I don't doubt that cadetships are a vital part of the industry for some people. However these so called 'cadetships' these days are money grabbing exploits that are just there to screw pilots over.
I won't waste my energy anymore, you just can't tell some people.
morno
1. I never said anything about academic success when I referred to 'doing the hard yards' in my career. There's a lot more to a successful aviation career than just reading some books and doing some exams. However, if you're a cadet, I can understand that you can't understand this.
2. The times of which I speak, are very recent.
I don't doubt that cadetships are a vital part of the industry for some people. However these so called 'cadetships' these days are money grabbing exploits that are just there to screw pilots over.
I won't waste my energy anymore, you just can't tell some people.
morno
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No matter how smart you are, you still have to put in effort to achieve high results. If anyone graduates high school within the top 1%, if they say they did no work, they're lying.
I don't think laziness has anything to do with it. Whichever path someone coming out of highschool was to take, they would still have to put in effort. The J* cadetship is very demanding because is it such a short course. Just because they start at an airline long before someone working in GA does, doesn't mean they're lazy. Whether working at an airline or in GA, you're still working..no room for laziness.
I don't think laziness has anything to do with it. Whichever path someone coming out of highschool was to take, they would still have to put in effort. The J* cadetship is very demanding because is it such a short course. Just because they start at an airline long before someone working in GA does, doesn't mean they're lazy. Whether working at an airline or in GA, you're still working..no room for laziness.
FlyBoat judging the way you write, obviously English is not your mother tongue. Are you with Jetstar as a cadet? Did you pass Yr12 English or did your parents pay for your well paying career??
because is it such a short course.
Flyboat, by your own numbers you have demonstrated that there is a large pool of highly experienced and dedicated aviators who have done the hard yards to meet airline requirements. I'd suggest a vast majority of these men and women began their training when the QANTAS cadetship was the only "cadetship". Your argument for the excellence of cadetships may be valid in 5-10 years. In the meantime this group feel a little betrayed by their industry. I for one have had the finish line either placed far into the future some years, or placed far into the past only to be told i'm "too experienced and likely to resign too soon". Thankfully i've got an awesome setup now in GA, but still support my brothers and sisters who dream of a shiny jet future.
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Flyboat, unless you are 18 or 19 then year 12 is really no measure of academic success.
Unless of course you're 38 and have achieved nothing in life other than have mummy and daddy pay to get you a job. That's begs the question, given that your parents paid for your J* job, did you get the hint or are you still living at home?
Unless of course you're 38 and have achieved nothing in life other than have mummy and daddy pay to get you a job. That's begs the question, given that your parents paid for your J* job, did you get the hint or are you still living at home?
Join Date: Apr 2013
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You will find that these programs aren't a money making scheme or conspiracy at all, the Jetstar program charges exactly the same as the non-Jetstar Swinburne students.
1. Science, Engineering and Technology > Swinburne...
2. Science, Engineering and Technology > Swinburne...
It is all the same , the Jetstar students do extra MCC stuff (about 40 hours) prior to doing the A320 rating.
The difference is that at the flying school it is no big secret that the "airline sponsored" cadets get the best flying and ground instructors
as well as preference for training aircraft.
Sure the CAE ratings are a tad inflated as compared to the US, but pretty much market price for Aust/Asia/Euro
So Morno - you were one of the lucky 5% who managed to get an airline job over past couple of years - how impressive you truly are , you beat all the RAAFIES with their instructor backgrounds , ADFA degrees etc etc. Sure you did
When you take an objective look at the numbers - a % chance equal to the fingers on one hand after a decade of employment instability, $100K training debt, systematic underpayment, living in the outback, massive lost opportunity cost - I think you be a mug to sign up for that program.
I think most of you guys have a hatred of these programs because you are well aware that one cadet joining means one less place for a direct entry and you are starting to realize that your aspiration to fly a jet for a major airline will not be achieved.
1. Science, Engineering and Technology > Swinburne...
2. Science, Engineering and Technology > Swinburne...
It is all the same , the Jetstar students do extra MCC stuff (about 40 hours) prior to doing the A320 rating.
The difference is that at the flying school it is no big secret that the "airline sponsored" cadets get the best flying and ground instructors
as well as preference for training aircraft.
Sure the CAE ratings are a tad inflated as compared to the US, but pretty much market price for Aust/Asia/Euro
So Morno - you were one of the lucky 5% who managed to get an airline job over past couple of years - how impressive you truly are , you beat all the RAAFIES with their instructor backgrounds , ADFA degrees etc etc. Sure you did
When you take an objective look at the numbers - a % chance equal to the fingers on one hand after a decade of employment instability, $100K training debt, systematic underpayment, living in the outback, massive lost opportunity cost - I think you be a mug to sign up for that program.
I think most of you guys have a hatred of these programs because you are well aware that one cadet joining means one less place for a direct entry and you are starting to realize that your aspiration to fly a jet for a major airline will not be achieved.
Last edited by Flyboat North; 18th Mar 2014 at 08:19. Reason: more info
The difference is that at the flying school it is no big secret that the "airline sponsored" cadets get the best flying and ground instructors
as well as preference for training aircraft.
as well as preference for training aircraft.
So Morno - you were one of the lucky 5% who managed to get an airline job over past couple of years - how impressive you truly are , you beat all the RAAFIES with their instructor backgrounds , ADFA degrees etc etc. Sure you did
When you take an objective look at the numbers - a % chance equal to the fingers on one hand after a decade of employment instability, $100K training debt, systematic underpayment, living in the outback, massive lost opportunity cost - I think you be a mug to sign up for that program.
I think most of you guys have a hatred of these programs because you are well aware that one cadet joining means one less place for a direct entry and you are starting to realize that your aspiration to fly a jet for a major airline will not be achieved.
It's not about whether a trained cadet or a former non airline experienced pilot is a better fit.
What the FAA did with the mandating of a Min ATPL for all RPT flight decks, was to put the "Value" back into the profession.
The proliferation of Cadet Schemes in the US was a direct response from the airlines in their constant war in lowering the wages and conditions of professional aircrew. To this end they needed a way to maintain the over supply of commercial pilots. And it worked! Pilots unable to live in their home base. Pilots having to commute vast distances. Pilots on less than minimum wage. Pilots on food stamps! And these clowns (operators) could see no problem with that!
The entire notion of competing for labour is so alien to airline management, so addicted to the ease of exploitation, that what we now see, is the wholesale grounding of much of the American Regional fleet. The penny will drop however, and the operators who accept the reality, placed upon them by a truly enlightened regulator, will be the ones who will ultimately survive.
As for the rest, trust me the travelling public will be much safer without them as a result.
As for Australia? We have the antithesis of an enlightened regulator, and a breathtaking ignorance of the situation, from both sides of politics.
God help us!
What the FAA did with the mandating of a Min ATPL for all RPT flight decks, was to put the "Value" back into the profession.
The proliferation of Cadet Schemes in the US was a direct response from the airlines in their constant war in lowering the wages and conditions of professional aircrew. To this end they needed a way to maintain the over supply of commercial pilots. And it worked! Pilots unable to live in their home base. Pilots having to commute vast distances. Pilots on less than minimum wage. Pilots on food stamps! And these clowns (operators) could see no problem with that!
The entire notion of competing for labour is so alien to airline management, so addicted to the ease of exploitation, that what we now see, is the wholesale grounding of much of the American Regional fleet. The penny will drop however, and the operators who accept the reality, placed upon them by a truly enlightened regulator, will be the ones who will ultimately survive.
As for the rest, trust me the travelling public will be much safer without them as a result.
As for Australia? We have the antithesis of an enlightened regulator, and a breathtaking ignorance of the situation, from both sides of politics.
God help us!
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I think most of you guys have a hatred of these programs because you are well aware that one cadet joining means one less place for a direct entry and you are starting to realize that your aspiration to fly a jet for a major airline will not be achieved.
Notice how not once person complaing about the programs has actually gone through one.
Not to mention their complaints that they have to divide all their hours by 2 so it will take them longer to get their ATPLs! Not something a direct entry F/O has a problem with.
The airlines aren't just for 'RAAFies' and cadets.
Notice how not once person complaing about the programs has actually gone through one.
FLGOFF, I assumed you were in the RAAF, no?
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You must have missed the first batch of cadets at Jetstar bleating about how they were ripped off and went to the Unions to help them out. Not to mention their complaints that they have to divide all their hours by 2 so it will take them longer to get their ATPLs! Not something a direct entry F/O has a problem with.
