No More KingAir Endorsements
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Level D
No requirement for circuits in the real aircraft after a Level D endorsement. There is however significant ICUS required here in Aus. In the states ICUS is required by the insurance companies. Different oversight but same result.
Groggy
Groggy
................okay 'GG' I have heard the 'flying tube' isn't an easy machine to fly so shall accept yr comments
I think any old style Sim would be a hand full when yr under the pump:-)
Wmk2
I think any old style Sim would be a hand full when yr under the pump:-)
Wmk2
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which country in the world operates the most under 12,000 LB turbines?
Does this country even require a type rating on these types?
They dont!!! good grief they must be falling out of the sky everywhere!!
Their not!!..hmm pilots must be good then, I even hear they have a much better overall safety standard than here with only a third as many regulations as well. How do they do it??
Does this country even require a type rating on these types?
They dont!!! good grief they must be falling out of the sky everywhere!!
Their not!!..hmm pilots must be good then, I even hear they have a much better overall safety standard than here with only a third as many regulations as well. How do they do it??
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thorn bird, great post and as a holder of a multi engine land I just salute you for the common sense approach to answering this, feed the donks with motion lotion, be aware what happens if one stops, understand the laws of physics.
Stay alive, it isn't really hard.
Stay alive, it isn't really hard.
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I'll raise ya Wally, try flying that bloody metro sim at Ansett with both donks going at night
Never flown a Metro, but surely they are easier than that bloody sim!
Folks,
More than one pilot has had their career cancelled by CASA requiring they use a certain Metro simulator, with no recourse to demonstrating competence.in an aircraft.
If you go back to when such elementary simulators were new, they were so removed from the real aeroplane, that a pilot failing in the simulator had the right to a second go in a real aeroplane. It is another condemnation of the current CASA approach, that such a right is now denied.
As to the outrageous prices I am now seeing quoted for now mandatory use, it seem to me that the costings are based on the US Flight Safety rates plus return airfares plus a hefty margin. In short, in my opinion, what you are seeing is the inevitable result of a CASA created virtual monopoly.
The QF prices for a simulator for contract usage must make then some of the cheapest simulators in Australia.
Tootle pip!!
More than one pilot has had their career cancelled by CASA requiring they use a certain Metro simulator, with no recourse to demonstrating competence.in an aircraft.
If you go back to when such elementary simulators were new, they were so removed from the real aeroplane, that a pilot failing in the simulator had the right to a second go in a real aeroplane. It is another condemnation of the current CASA approach, that such a right is now denied.
As to the outrageous prices I am now seeing quoted for now mandatory use, it seem to me that the costings are based on the US Flight Safety rates plus return airfares plus a hefty margin. In short, in my opinion, what you are seeing is the inevitable result of a CASA created virtual monopoly.
The QF prices for a simulator for contract usage must make then some of the cheapest simulators in Australia.
Tootle pip!!
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"As to the outrageous prices I am now seeing quoted for now mandatory use, it seem to me that the costings are based on the US Flight Safety rates plus return airfares plus a hefty margin. In short, in my opinion, what you are seeing is the inevitable result of a CASA created virtual monopoly."
To use a simulator at a certain foreign airlines facility in Australia costs around three times what the actual aircraft costs, currently they have a monopoly. The current cost for recurrancy is around what it would cost to attend flight safety.
They also pretty much dictate how the airport they use is run as well, how long before foreign entities begin dictating who can and cant use Australian airports. Oh forgot! our airports are mostly privately owned jeez even Mascot is owned by some company in the Bahama's a well known tax haven.
What happens Leadie when the public interest or safety benefit is overridden by the holy $$$.
To use a simulator at a certain foreign airlines facility in Australia costs around three times what the actual aircraft costs, currently they have a monopoly. The current cost for recurrancy is around what it would cost to attend flight safety.
They also pretty much dictate how the airport they use is run as well, how long before foreign entities begin dictating who can and cant use Australian airports. Oh forgot! our airports are mostly privately owned jeez even Mascot is owned by some company in the Bahama's a well known tax haven.
What happens Leadie when the public interest or safety benefit is overridden by the holy $$$.
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Gondwanaland
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's the latest on CASA stance in doing a type rating OS. Surely no one is actually paying 16-18k for a b200 type rating with Ansett. That's a mountain of cash..
Where else can you still do the TR, smart air can't do the initial now can they?
Where else can you still do the TR, smart air can't do the initial now can they?
Last edited by FutureFO; 20th Dec 2016 at 11:10.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ZOMG the sky is falling!
5 hours x $2000/hr in the plane... $10k
5 hours x $400/hr in the sim $2k, Flights for two people from Broome (about the worst case scenario with the sim in Melbourne?) <$2k, accommodation and allowances for two nights in Melbourne for two people $1k (cheaper options available, but lets keep it at round numbers).... so $5k.
Resulting in an extra expense of... -$5k. Might even be able to do better if you send two people down for the endo at the same time. Heck they can sit in the right seat while their sim buddy is doing their training and might learn more from others mistakes. Not to mention being able to give real engine fires at V1 in the sim, or any one of a number of system failures. Deal with a real event under pressure rather than casually talk about what would you do if...? Can't afford to lose your C&T staff for three days... might have to question your truck number there if you're CAR217, but if you're comfortable with it, can get the Sim centre to do the training and only lose the pilot you're getting endorsed.
Oh I get it... "What do you mean I can't train the pilot on the dead leg of a charter any more and get the customer to pay my expenses while still bonding the pilot for $12k?"
I disagree with a lot about CASA at the moment, but not this particular point. I've done endo's with and without the Sim.. the Sim was definitely a better endorsement despite being run by a less capable instructor. Those I've seen object to having to do endo's in the Sim, generally have never done one.
5 hours x $2000/hr in the plane... $10k
5 hours x $400/hr in the sim $2k, Flights for two people from Broome (about the worst case scenario with the sim in Melbourne?) <$2k, accommodation and allowances for two nights in Melbourne for two people $1k (cheaper options available, but lets keep it at round numbers).... so $5k.
Resulting in an extra expense of... -$5k. Might even be able to do better if you send two people down for the endo at the same time. Heck they can sit in the right seat while their sim buddy is doing their training and might learn more from others mistakes. Not to mention being able to give real engine fires at V1 in the sim, or any one of a number of system failures. Deal with a real event under pressure rather than casually talk about what would you do if...? Can't afford to lose your C&T staff for three days... might have to question your truck number there if you're CAR217, but if you're comfortable with it, can get the Sim centre to do the training and only lose the pilot you're getting endorsed.
Oh I get it... "What do you mean I can't train the pilot on the dead leg of a charter any more and get the customer to pay my expenses while still bonding the pilot for $12k?"
I disagree with a lot about CASA at the moment, but not this particular point. I've done endo's with and without the Sim.. the Sim was definitely a better endorsement despite being run by a less capable instructor. Those I've seen object to having to do endo's in the Sim, generally have never done one.
Broome - Melb - Broome x 2. 23 Jan - 26Jan $2,036
(only useable flight due flight and arrival times)
3 nights accom x 2 - 24,25,26 Jan $1,074
Allowances and taxis $800
Wages $1,856 4 days.
$7,766
Ok now consider the follow on costs- loss of revenue, repayments of idle B200 for min 4 days for example.
Also can you break down the $10,000 for 5 hours (a dry hire B200 is around $1,000 per hr last I checked) I worked on wages @$29 p/h.
Often people forget to consider that aeroplanes still need to fly on revenue flights to pay for sim training in far away places, they only forget they need to be paid until they are back after 4 days away and the award prohibits use of backpackers for accom.
** When the only available flights to and from Broome left tomake the sim booking date, are the ones that go via PER and BNE and take 18 and1/2 hours.
What is the minimum rest period required after the flight/s?
Also what is the minimum duty period for a day?
Full time B200 captian.
Last edited by Band a Lot; 21st Dec 2016 at 01:57.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chimbu,
You got it right and it will be fantastic to have an excuse to go to the Sunny Coast. Its Proline 21 and will be Level "D" I believe which is even better.
You got it right and it will be fantastic to have an excuse to go to the Sunny Coast. Its Proline 21 and will be Level "D" I believe which is even better.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Warrior,
My point is simply saying the sim is only $400 p/h and the a/c is $2,000 per hr so include a few $K in extras in flight its still half price is not taking much into account.
I just took the location that was suggested (Broome) and had a bit of a look and many other factors make huge problems inc duty time for the month if only certain legs are available on the available sim time. Also Broome is a lucky location, it has RPT flights.
Depart Broome 18:25 Monday 23/1/17 arriveafter 18.5 hrs positioning arrive MLB Tuesday 08:35 on 24/1/17
Minimum 24 hrs off
Wednesday 25/1/17 Simulator 11:30 - 16:30 (5hrs)
Thursday 26/1/17 depart Melbourne 18:00for Broome 18.5 hrs positioning time arrive Broome 27/1/17 at 09:35.
Minimum 24 hrs off
Can next be rostered to work at 09:35 onFriday 28/1/17.
42 hours of duty time for 5 hours ofsimulator time and 2 pilots away for a week.
*Min B200 pilot $1,242 per week. = $2,484
Allowances =$1,720
Airfares =$2,046
Accom =$1,422
Transport =$100
Sim =$2,000
Total :- $9,772
__________
5 hrs dry hire @ $1,100 = $5,500
5 hrs fuel = $2,900
10 hrs wages = $320
Total :- $8,720 + no loss of crew for a week and aircraft online.
My point is simply saying the sim is only $400 p/h and the a/c is $2,000 per hr so include a few $K in extras in flight its still half price is not taking much into account.
I just took the location that was suggested (Broome) and had a bit of a look and many other factors make huge problems inc duty time for the month if only certain legs are available on the available sim time. Also Broome is a lucky location, it has RPT flights.
Depart Broome 18:25 Monday 23/1/17 arriveafter 18.5 hrs positioning arrive MLB Tuesday 08:35 on 24/1/17
Minimum 24 hrs off
Wednesday 25/1/17 Simulator 11:30 - 16:30 (5hrs)
Thursday 26/1/17 depart Melbourne 18:00for Broome 18.5 hrs positioning time arrive Broome 27/1/17 at 09:35.
Minimum 24 hrs off
Can next be rostered to work at 09:35 onFriday 28/1/17.
42 hours of duty time for 5 hours ofsimulator time and 2 pilots away for a week.
*Min B200 pilot $1,242 per week. = $2,484
Allowances =$1,720
Airfares =$2,046
Accom =$1,422
Transport =$100
Sim =$2,000
Total :- $9,772
__________
5 hrs dry hire @ $1,100 = $5,500
5 hrs fuel = $2,900
10 hrs wages = $320
Total :- $8,720 + no loss of crew for a week and aircraft online.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I may be wrong, but from what I heard the pilot isn't completely endorsed in the sim at Ansett. They still need to do some actual flying in the aircraft prior to being endorsed. Like I said, I'm prepared for someone to correct this if it is incorrect.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: OZ
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Still need an ato to do 3 circuits etc, fill in paper work and submit to casa along with paper work from sim centre, same forms just different section filled in on each one.
All good, overall cost shouldn't be much over $12500 to $14000 for sim work and aircraft plus expenses.
All good, overall cost shouldn't be much over $12500 to $14000 for sim work and aircraft plus expenses.
Nice thing with the sim, you can do all the hot starts, hung starts, engine fires, prop over speeds etc without risking the airframe or engines.
Lot more beneficial for the pilot progressing onto his/her first turbine.
Lot more beneficial for the pilot progressing onto his/her first turbine.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Compressor stall, I am fully aware of that crash. Charlie certainly a sim for a first turbine has many benefits.
However it is simply a Canberra based decision with no cost analysis that makes for a very un level playing field. (is there a small org in Broome that has one King air and 2 pilots that runs a contract every second weekday - what is the impact?)
I think you can safely assume CASA did no such research - contract lost, company with 6 aircraft and 12 staff closes!
Or such company did not have King Air but a C441 (no sim in Australia) - are these passengers and crew as safe as the King Air or less safe?
I have my King Air endorsement and have got my job in Maun, Botswana my Australian licence is validated (they don't issue a Botswana Licence) the certified sim in South Africa is not available (due politics).
The B200 sim/s in Australia suddenly become U/S do updates only supported by -x or above sims (ours are below x)-
Suddenly a sim is no longer required for B200!
Question
(Pratt & Whitney PT6A-41's power the early model 200's while PT6A-42's are found in B200's. The differences between the 200 and B200, besides the engines, are that the 200's have electrically operated gear while the B200 has hydraulic gear.)
Are the sims available in Australia B200 + 200 or only B200?
However it is simply a Canberra based decision with no cost analysis that makes for a very un level playing field. (is there a small org in Broome that has one King air and 2 pilots that runs a contract every second weekday - what is the impact?)
I think you can safely assume CASA did no such research - contract lost, company with 6 aircraft and 12 staff closes!
Or such company did not have King Air but a C441 (no sim in Australia) - are these passengers and crew as safe as the King Air or less safe?
I have my King Air endorsement and have got my job in Maun, Botswana my Australian licence is validated (they don't issue a Botswana Licence) the certified sim in South Africa is not available (due politics).
The B200 sim/s in Australia suddenly become U/S do updates only supported by -x or above sims (ours are below x)-
Suddenly a sim is no longer required for B200!
Question
(Pratt & Whitney PT6A-41's power the early model 200's while PT6A-42's are found in B200's. The differences between the 200 and B200, besides the engines, are that the 200's have electrically operated gear while the B200 has hydraulic gear.)
Are the sims available in Australia B200 + 200 or only B200?
FutureFO - you're right, nobody does a B200 type rating anymore ... because it hasn't existed for the last couple of years, the B200 is covered by the multi-class rating 
All that's required is some "training" and a flight review in the aircraft. So CASA did a few helpful things with part 61 (though I doubt it's been worth the fuss.)
All that's required is some "training" and a flight review in the aircraft. So CASA did a few helpful things with part 61 (though I doubt it's been worth the fuss.)