The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

No More KingAir Endorsements

Old 6th Mar 2013, 09:07
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
No More KingAir Endorsements

Well guys the it's official. If you wish to get endorsed on a KingAir B200 or B350 after April 1st it will have to be done in a Sim. Refer CAO 82.0 and CAO 40.1.0. In addition any training in one of the above, for an organisation with CAR 217 approval, that requires the use of Abnormal or Emergency procedures has to be done in a Sim. Before I get shot down let me assure you I have done the research. The criteria are that the B200 and B350 have approval to seat 10 or more pax on their Type Data Certificate and there is a Sim available for both types in Australia.

There is no B1900 Sim in Australia and therefore endorsements and 217 T&C can be done in the aircraft. To me this is CASA lunacy at its best. I understand the intent but once again they have completely stuffed it up. Surely The intent, after the tragic accident in Darwin, was to make things safer in aircraft over 5700KG in the CAR 217 training environment. The B200 KingAir is the modern day Piper Chieftain and this new regulation will cause untold expense and heartache in the GA sector.

Please keep in mind that there is a 50 hour ICUS requirement for the first time Multi Turbine pilot before he can conduct a charter so will the above really make it any safer ??????

Groggy
Grogmonster is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 09:29
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 2,451
Received 29 Likes on 13 Posts
Erm groggy, where is the reqt for 50 ICUS?

(yes I need to know, no I am not being a smart arse)
Horatio Leafblower is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 09:47
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 350
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I hope the only connection between the PA31 and B200 you have made is in regards to how many there are, not performance!
717tech is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 09:54
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 58
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So. does this mean we're not getting Kingairs?

(maybe only old timers will get this...)
Anthill is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 10:14
  #5 (permalink)  
Sprucegoose
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
The criteria are that the B200 and B350 have approval to seat 10 or more pax on their Type Data Certificate and there is a Sim available for both types in Australia.
Certificates of later model Kingairs have been amended to show 9 Pax, whereas earlier models (especially B350) had up to 14 pax.
The B200 KingAir is the modern day Piper Chieftain
I think you might need to check the dates on the type certificates!

PS:At present an endorsement can not be 'completed' on the B200 sim in Australia, as some of the flight sequences still need to be completed in the aircraft.
Howard Hughes is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 10:23
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What about the Conquest? Mine has 10 pax seats? So if a C441 sim shows up that's it. No more abnormal training ops in the Aircraft? What if the sim breaks........and let's face it they NEVER break, cough cough, f$&k me. The whole country is shut down from doing any kind of useful training?
ebby1028 is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 12:03
  #7 (permalink)  
601
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 1,471
Received 15 Likes on 12 Posts
CAO 82.0.7 only applies to AOC holders who have a CAR 217 T&C organisation.

Therefore training on a B200 or C441 or any aircraft >5700kg MTOW would not be required to be done in a QSTD. How many AOC holders in Oz who operate King Airs, other than the 350, would have CAR 217 approval?

Certificates of later model Kingairs have been amended to show 9 Pax,
The 9 pax in a King Air only applies to aircraft modded for FAR 135 operations in the USA.
601 is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 12:15
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Behind a CB near you
Age: 43
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
How many AOC holders in Oz who operate King Airs, other than the 350, would have CAR 217 approval?
I know of at least 1.
Nose wheel first is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 18:12
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: oznz
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The C90A and later TCDS has 13 pax seats...
avcraft is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 19:28
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 4,278
Received 122 Likes on 57 Posts
CASR 61 I think has the relevant gen.

61.205 When training must not be conducted in aircraft

(1) For paragraphs 61.195 (2) (d) and 61.200 (d), the training must not be conducted in an aircraft with a maximum certificated passenger seating capacity of more than 9 if:

(a) there is an approved flight simulator for the training available in Australia; or

(b) for a rating that applies only to an aircraft with a maximum certificated passenger seating capacity of more than 19 or a maximum certificated take-off weight of more than 8 618 kg—there is an approved flight simulator for the training available outside Australia.

(2) In this regulation:

available, for training, means able to be used for the training.
compressor stall is online now  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 20:34
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hollister, Hilo, Pago Pago, Norfolk Is., Brisbane, depending which day of the week it is...
Age: 51
Posts: 1,348
Received 11 Likes on 7 Posts
Horatio;
Groggy may have been referring to CAO 40.1.0
8A

8A.1 Conditions on aircraft endorsements For the purposes of regulation 5.25, it is a condition of each command endorsement that authorises the holder of the endorsement to fly an aeroplane with a maximum take-off weight of more than 5 700 kg that the holder of the endorsement must not act as pilot in command of such an aeroplane if:
(a) the aeroplane is engaged in charter operations, or regular public transport operations; and
(b) the aeroplane’s flight manual specifies that it may be flown under the I.F.R.; unless the holder satisfies the aeronautical experience requirements set out in paragraph 8A.2.

8A.2 Unless CASA otherwise approves, the endorsement holder’s aeronautical experience must consist of:
(a) at least 50 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision in the type of aeroplane concerned; or
(b) at least:
(i) 25 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision in the type of aeroplane concerned; and
(ii) the successful completion of an approved training course conducted in an approved synthetic flight trainer.
Wouldn't apply to B200.
MakeItHappenCaptain is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 22:55
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Zoo
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ZOMG the sky is falling!

5 hours x $2000/hr in the plane... $10k

5 hours x $400/hr in the sim $2k, Flights for two people from Broome (about the worst case scenario with the sim in Melbourne?) <$2k, accommodation and allowances for two nights in Melbourne for two people $1k (cheaper options available, but lets keep it at round numbers).... so $5k.

Resulting in an extra expense of... -$5k. Might even be able to do better if you send two people down for the endo at the same time. Heck they can sit in the right seat while their sim buddy is doing their training and might learn more from others mistakes. Not to mention being able to give real engine fires at V1 in the sim, or any one of a number of system failures. Deal with a real event under pressure rather than casually talk about what would you do if...? Can't afford to lose your C&T staff for three days... might have to question your truck number there if you're CAR217, but if you're comfortable with it, can get the Sim centre to do the training and only lose the pilot you're getting endorsed.

Oh I get it... "What do you mean I can't train the pilot on the dead leg of a charter any more and get the customer to pay my expenses while still bonding the pilot for $12k?"

I disagree with a lot about CASA at the moment, but not this particular point. I've done endo's with and without the Sim.. the Sim was definitely a better endorsement despite being run by a less capable instructor. Those I've seen object to having to do endo's in the Sim, generally have never done one.
kalavo is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 23:02
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 4,278
Received 122 Likes on 57 Posts
I lost track of the regulatory reform process last century, but aren't the CAOs and CARs being replaced by CASRs?

Thus CAO 40.1 will be extinct, replaced by part 61 above?

And yes, as per previous poster, I am personally struggling to see the problem with it.

Last edited by compressor stall; 6th Mar 2013 at 23:04.
compressor stall is online now  
Old 6th Mar 2013, 23:10
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: The Shire
Posts: 2,890
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Leave the CARs CASRs and CAOs for the boffins at CASA.

No one in industry looks at them (except manualsexuals).

Everything you need to know is your Jepps or the company operations manuals.
The Green Goblin is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2013, 00:05
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
How many AOC holders in Oz who operate King Airs, other than the 350, would have CAR 217 approval?
A majority of 200/B200 operators around the country are CAR217 organisations; RFDS (Qld/South Eastern), Pel-Air, Hinterland, CareFlight, Pearl Aviation.

All of which already use the Ansett sim in Melbourne.
manymak is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2013, 00:51
  #16 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Horatio and others, for B200 Endorsements, read CAO 40.1.0.

Groggy
Grogmonster is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2013, 03:11
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 2,460
Received 285 Likes on 111 Posts
All of which already use the Ansett sim in Melbourne
No they don't
morno is online now  
Old 7th Mar 2013, 04:05
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: melb
Posts: 2,162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am led to believe that the Beech Sim in ML is not currently avail as a 350.

Flash lookin' contraption though, had a peek in it the udder day, huge space inside but man was the drivers seat environment cramp, I guess old age means I 4got what it was like:-)



Wmk2
Wally Mk2 is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2013, 04:13
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Havana
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The Beech sim in the main building is configured as a 350 with proline 21, but I am told it will soon be made available as a 200 as well.


Dash.
Dash 42 is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2013, 05:41
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,167
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Let me see:----throw the real Aircraft around the sky learning to fly it and risk killing yourself........or do it in a Flight Sim ?????? I choose the Sim...

Besides its a much cheaper and better training environment.

What's the problem????
nitpicker330 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.