CASA Suspends Barrier Aviation Operations
You worry too much, probably because you listen too much to people who tell only one half of a story.
Just fly and enjoy it.
If ever you're tempted to do the kinds of things that attract enforcement action by CASA, you'll have a strong, uneasy feeling somewhere in your nether regions.
Just fly and enjoy it.
If ever you're tempted to do the kinds of things that attract enforcement action by CASA, you'll have a strong, uneasy feeling somewhere in your nether regions.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia, maybe
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If ever you're tempted to do the kinds of things that attract enforcement action by CASA, you'll have a strong, uneasy feeling somewhere in your nether regions
The whole reason for this thread is that casa have the power to put any person in OZ aviation out of business for up to 73 days without having to provide any proof of misdeed.
For 73 days the ball never leaves their side of the court, the umpire is appointed by their team and all their fees are paid from the public purse.
Meanwhile 55 people are not earning a living and a 20 year old business is being strangled to death while casa goes on a fishing trip.
Keep the wisdom coming Creampuff, you are so insightful.
Im sure the owners know the difference between a defect and a geniune fault despite what the regs say as for the Barriers pilots they have been around long enough to know "whats right and whats wrong". I never used to like CASA but im starting to warm to them. Maybe they are trying to ground a "old school culture" and they are doing that by the only way they know how. Come on everbody, GA is infested with old plane and old minds.And if you think CASA is over regulating the industry, go compete in the mining industry in a 1967 D9 Dozer.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: australia
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rather than hate Casa blindly for the misdeeds against an operator it seems most of its defendants don't seem to know , why not research the 30 year history of the "company" and the engineers. As others have stated its all out there if you look. MacArthur job , atsb , aopa , wheelahan investigation , even a book written by a passenger. As for the rampant unchecked power of Casa against the little GA guy , seemed ok when the boot was on the other foot of a once FOI.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia, maybe
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some of you guys are too cryptic for me!
Square Bear. - Barrier Aviation incorporated in 1992 (internet search), is that not correct?
anothertwit. - It might have been a nice jab, but I felt nothing???? sorry, I just didn't 'get it'
justinga. - 1967 D9. - That would be a D9G with the 385hp engine. Best model Cat ever built, and most popular too. The model ran unchanged for 13 years, though it didn't have the later models Elevated Drive Sprocket, which gives it that aesthetically serious horn appeal.
airfix01. - registered a new handle and waited for 3 years to break your silence just to have a couple of shots at Barrier. Hope it's making you feel better dude.
edit for VNAV_PTH 2 posts below.
Thank-you. My agenda is if the problem is indeed about the maintenance of some BN2's at Horn Is., then was it right to ground all 4 of the Barrier bases rather than just Horn Is.
casa seems to think a grand 'paperwork fishing tour' of FNQ & NT will justify their actions. I think it's bastardry of the worst kind to put them out of business in the meantime.
..I also know the difference between 'quiet' and 'quite'.
You should google it.
Square Bear. - Barrier Aviation incorporated in 1992 (internet search), is that not correct?
anothertwit. - It might have been a nice jab, but I felt nothing???? sorry, I just didn't 'get it'
justinga. - 1967 D9. - That would be a D9G with the 385hp engine. Best model Cat ever built, and most popular too. The model ran unchanged for 13 years, though it didn't have the later models Elevated Drive Sprocket, which gives it that aesthetically serious horn appeal.
airfix01. - registered a new handle and waited for 3 years to break your silence just to have a couple of shots at Barrier. Hope it's making you feel better dude.
edit for VNAV_PTH 2 posts below.
Well done mate, you know how to use google and Wikipedia
My agenda is if the problem is indeed about the maintenance of some BN2's at Horn Is., then was it right to ground all 4 of the Barrier bases rather than just Horn Is.casa seems to think a grand 'paperwork fishing tour' of FNQ & NT will justify their actions. I think it's bastardry of the worst kind to put them out of business in the meantime.
..I also know the difference between 'quiet' and 'quite'.
You should google it.
Last edited by Trent 972; 9th Jan 2013 at 13:48.
trent, my comment wasn't aimed at you. unless you had a hand in what went on with wingz north?
As i know someone affected by this I feel for them and all that have been affected.
airfix01 said it better than I could
As i know someone affected by this I feel for them and all that have been affected.
airfix01 said it better than I could
As for the rampant unchecked power of Casa against the little GA guy , seemed ok when the boot was on the other foot of a once FOI
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: In a glass house
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trent,
Well done mate, you know how to use google and Wikipedia. It is quiet apparent from your posts that you have no knowledge of the situation, but proceed to talk through your a$$ anyway. Got an agenda much?
Well done mate, you know how to use google and Wikipedia. It is quiet apparent from your posts that you have no knowledge of the situation, but proceed to talk through your a$$ anyway. Got an agenda much?
Oh so true Trent, and there is so many similiar aircraft, motorbikes, cars, subs, pushbikes, skateboards and people of a similiar vintage that deserve the status of classic or legend. It dosnt mean they belong operating in the modern world. Lets use this as a great example..........How many D9s where built? How many AC500s (for example)where built? Do you know the answer, i dont but im thinking there arnt too many D9s operating in the commerical vs how many ACs are operating off Cairns airport for example or spotting fish in South Australia
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: (Not always) In front of my computer
Posts: 371
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Justin,
I am not sure of any difference between a defect and a genuine fault; they are the same to me. However you are correct, GA is GA. I have myself (time to change my IP address) flown with known defects to get an aircraft either back to base or to the next scheduled maintenance. The type of flight, (VFR/IFR/PAX/DEADLEG) would determine my acceptance of the level of defect. Sure this is not within CAR 50, but in the light of commercial pressure, level of safety etc., I feel I am able to make a reasonable judgement based on my level of experience. This is done on a case by case basis; I am no way accepting it is a culture in any organisation I have worked for. Simply, if I am able to save the boss a $5000 repair for a $1000 repair with no effect on safety, I can live with that. The profit margins in GA are that tight. (This requires a thread of its own.)
Before some start commenting, “You’re not a licensed engineer, and not able to make that determination”, let’s put it into perspective. I have departed with a known non-functioning auto-pilot, and determined the component failed en-route to home base, but ONLY DAY VRF. I have flown for weeks with the left hand NAV light inoperative, when in a remote area without a replacement available. If I am not sure, I will phone a friend. (Read LAME)
Regarding a blown NAV light, don’t get me started about Schedule 8 maintenance approved under CAR 42ZC, and CAAP 42ZC, which advises an acceptable means of compliance, advises, “CASA strongly recommends guidance should be sought by pilots from a relevant Part 66 licence holder on the correct aircraft maintenance practices and procedures.” Now I find CASA “policy” requires signed training records which authorize schedule 8 maintenance. WTF, it’s a bulb change, my 11 year old could do it unsupervised.
You may find a big disparity between Barrier pilot experience levels at different bases. I know the Cairns crew are mostly very experienced, mature, high time pilots able to tell the boss, “Get stuffed, you fly it”. The Horn Island pilots are somewhat less experienced, an average may be around 1000TT, 300ME, possibly more likely to say, “No worries Base Boss”. Whilst knowing the difference between right and wrong, they are there for a reason; hour building/500ME Command etc. which may have an effect on their judgement.
I am not sure of any difference between a defect and a genuine fault; they are the same to me. However you are correct, GA is GA. I have myself (time to change my IP address) flown with known defects to get an aircraft either back to base or to the next scheduled maintenance. The type of flight, (VFR/IFR/PAX/DEADLEG) would determine my acceptance of the level of defect. Sure this is not within CAR 50, but in the light of commercial pressure, level of safety etc., I feel I am able to make a reasonable judgement based on my level of experience. This is done on a case by case basis; I am no way accepting it is a culture in any organisation I have worked for. Simply, if I am able to save the boss a $5000 repair for a $1000 repair with no effect on safety, I can live with that. The profit margins in GA are that tight. (This requires a thread of its own.)
Before some start commenting, “You’re not a licensed engineer, and not able to make that determination”, let’s put it into perspective. I have departed with a known non-functioning auto-pilot, and determined the component failed en-route to home base, but ONLY DAY VRF. I have flown for weeks with the left hand NAV light inoperative, when in a remote area without a replacement available. If I am not sure, I will phone a friend. (Read LAME)
Regarding a blown NAV light, don’t get me started about Schedule 8 maintenance approved under CAR 42ZC, and CAAP 42ZC, which advises an acceptable means of compliance, advises, “CASA strongly recommends guidance should be sought by pilots from a relevant Part 66 licence holder on the correct aircraft maintenance practices and procedures.” Now I find CASA “policy” requires signed training records which authorize schedule 8 maintenance. WTF, it’s a bulb change, my 11 year old could do it unsupervised.
You may find a big disparity between Barrier pilot experience levels at different bases. I know the Cairns crew are mostly very experienced, mature, high time pilots able to tell the boss, “Get stuffed, you fly it”. The Horn Island pilots are somewhat less experienced, an average may be around 1000TT, 300ME, possibly more likely to say, “No worries Base Boss”. Whilst knowing the difference between right and wrong, they are there for a reason; hour building/500ME Command etc. which may have an effect on their judgement.
Creamie,
As to what Hazeltons did, how they used the book, what was approved by CAA/CASA, I have no idea, beyond what is said in the Arcas report linked to this thread.
Tootle pip!!
As to what Hazeltons did, how they used the book, what was approved by CAA/CASA, I have no idea, beyond what is said in the Arcas report linked to this thread.
Tootle pip!!
Two Dogs...........well said, im sure we are on a similiar wavelength on this issue. And yes i was referring to the Cairns pilots and there owner. They are fantastic people with a wealth of experince and i would hop in a plane with them tomorrow and fly anywhere with them. However they need to change, they and i (and you) have flaunted too much for too long.
Ive been in GA a long time, ive fought change but now accept it.Im currently flying a private op for a small mine operation in a new King Air.And ive got to say, after 20 years im bloody happy to fly and more important FIX an aircraft as an when required without a $$$$ being an issue.Why does GA think its special, ever reason any item is not written up revolves around $$$$ (the bosses) or pilot comfort (i dont wont to stay at a community). If GA in general isnt making a $$ then shut it down, reform it, bring new people in, business people, business plans, new machinery. People will still fly, CASA will reform.
Ive been in GA a long time, ive fought change but now accept it.Im currently flying a private op for a small mine operation in a new King Air.And ive got to say, after 20 years im bloody happy to fly and more important FIX an aircraft as an when required without a $$$$ being an issue.Why does GA think its special, ever reason any item is not written up revolves around $$$$ (the bosses) or pilot comfort (i dont wont to stay at a community). If GA in general isnt making a $$ then shut it down, reform it, bring new people in, business people, business plans, new machinery. People will still fly, CASA will reform.
“CASA strongly recommends guidance should be sought by pilots from a relevant Part 66 licence holder on the correct aircraft maintenance practices and procedures.” Now I find CASA “policy” requires signed training records which authorize schedule 8 maintenance. WTF, it’s a bulb change, my 11 year old could do it unsupervised.
Would you fly in an aircraft whose engine had just had the oil, oil filter and spark plug change carried out by an untrained, unsupervised 11 year old? (No need to answer that: it was a rhetorical question.)
I have myself (time to change my IP address) flown with known defects to get an aircraft either back to base or to the next scheduled maintenance. The type of flight, (VFR/IFR/PAX/DEADLEG) would determine my acceptance of the level of defect. Sure this is not within CAR 50, but in the light of commercial pressure, level of safety etc., I feel I am able to make a reasonable judgement based on my level of experience.
You might find that, had you had a better understanding of the rules, flights back to base or to the next scheduled maintenance, with defects (whether recorded on the MR or not) could have been conducted legally. For example, an aircraft with an MR authorising ops in charter may still be operated in the private category...
But if you were carrying paying fare paying pax, brave call!
Leaddie: You are correct. You 'have no idea'.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Australia
Age: 53
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Creampuff,
If as you say one poster 'has no idea' and you seen critical of others understanding. How should casa going about ensuring people and companies are kept current and understand rules?
Clearly there appears to be a problem with lack of knowledge when casa have found a number of situations presenting 'an immediate safety risk'. That suggests the system is failing?
If as you say one poster 'has no idea' and you seen critical of others understanding. How should casa going about ensuring people and companies are kept current and understand rules?
Clearly there appears to be a problem with lack of knowledge when casa have found a number of situations presenting 'an immediate safety risk'. That suggests the system is failing?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: (Not always) In front of my computer
Posts: 371
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Creamie,
I nearly included in my previous post that, "I probably wouldn't let my 11 year old change the spark plugs or grease the wheel bearings" but it was getting late and my post was already long enough. I am fortunate enough to have a mechanical aptitude that enables me to carry out all Schedule 8 maintenance to an acceptable standard. If there is any doubt in my mind I will seek assistance from a LAME, I know quite a few. I have however spoken to pilots who had NFI. My point is that CASA "policy" requires training and record keeping outside of legislation. I am all for the training side of things but I have seen cases where people and companies have been NCNd for incomplete or out of date records not required by legislation, but forming part of the COM because CASA "would like to see" or "feel it a good idea."
I know it is not CAR 50 that prevents me from flying with certain defects, but if I know of a defect and fail to enter it on the MR I am liable, correct? I am sure that in the case of an unserviceable autopilot being written up on a Monday and the aircraft flown back to base 1 POB in the private category on the Tuesday could cause me all sorts of problems with my local AWI.
CAO 20.18.
10.1 In the case of a charter or regular public transport aircraft, all instruments and equipment fitted to the aircraft must be serviceable before take-off, unless:
10.1A A private or aerial work aircraft must not be operated:
I have had AWIs tell me that if the MR indicates the aircraft is maintained and certified as IFR/Charter category, then CAO 20.18 applies despite it being a private flight.
I nearly included in my previous post that, "I probably wouldn't let my 11 year old change the spark plugs or grease the wheel bearings" but it was getting late and my post was already long enough. I am fortunate enough to have a mechanical aptitude that enables me to carry out all Schedule 8 maintenance to an acceptable standard. If there is any doubt in my mind I will seek assistance from a LAME, I know quite a few. I have however spoken to pilots who had NFI. My point is that CASA "policy" requires training and record keeping outside of legislation. I am all for the training side of things but I have seen cases where people and companies have been NCNd for incomplete or out of date records not required by legislation, but forming part of the COM because CASA "would like to see" or "feel it a good idea."
I know it is not CAR 50 that prevents me from flying with certain defects, but if I know of a defect and fail to enter it on the MR I am liable, correct? I am sure that in the case of an unserviceable autopilot being written up on a Monday and the aircraft flown back to base 1 POB in the private category on the Tuesday could cause me all sorts of problems with my local AWI.
CAO 20.18.
10.1 In the case of a charter or regular public transport aircraft, all instruments and equipment fitted to the aircraft must be serviceable before take-off, unless:
10.1A A private or aerial work aircraft must not be operated:
I have had AWIs tell me that if the MR indicates the aircraft is maintained and certified as IFR/Charter category, then CAO 20.18 applies despite it being a private flight.
Last edited by Two_dogs; 9th Jan 2013 at 21:59. Reason: Add some bolding
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia, maybe
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
justin, I am intrigued by your last 2 posts, when you say
Why is it, they need to change?
Surely not because they are "fantastic people with a wealth of experience".
Is that because now you are "..flying a private op for a small mine operation in a new King Air".
Isn't that a way of saying, "NOW, I'm alright Jack, so fark you"
Just ditch anyone who has worked their a$$ off to get ahead, spent all their savings to build something for themselves and their families?
What comparable "new machinery" is there to replace all those twins etc. that haven't been built for so long.
I think you are in need of a serious reality check.
I recommend 'Liquid Viagra Eye Droplets', so you can have a good long hard look at yourself.
Good luck with your "new KingAir'.
I'm sure there are 37 other pilots who would like to be in your shoes.
And yes i was referring to the Cairns pilots and there [sic] owner. They are fantastic people with a wealth of experince and i would hop in a plane with them tomorrow and fly anywhere with them. However they need to change...
Surely not because they are "fantastic people with a wealth of experience".
Ive been in GA a long time, ive fought change but now accept it
Isn't that a way of saying, "NOW, I'm alright Jack, so fark you"
If GA in general isnt making a $$ then shut it down, reform it, bring new people in, business people, business plans, new machinery
What comparable "new machinery" is there to replace all those twins etc. that haven't been built for so long.
I think you are in need of a serious reality check.
I recommend 'Liquid Viagra Eye Droplets', so you can have a good long hard look at yourself.
Good luck with your "new KingAir'.
I'm sure there are 37 other pilots who would like to be in your shoes.
Last edited by Trent 972; 10th Jan 2013 at 01:13. Reason: formatting mostly
I have had AWIs tell me that if the MR indicates the aircraft is maintained and certified as IFR/Charter category, then CAO 20.18 applies despite it being a private flight.
Next time it happens, write to their boss and ask him to confirm that the views of the hired help are those of the management. But double check that you haven't misunderstood them, first.
(PS: I am just teasing Leaddie. It's a game we play.)
Justinga A new King Air! Flying a 2012 King Air must be nice. I didn't realise any 12 models had arrived in Aus yet