VFR Bimbling Chart Requirements
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 1996
Location: Check with Ops
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VFR Bimbling Chart Requirements
Before I immediately get flamed (a)I have used the search function and (b)I have searched CARs and the AIP to try and find a definitive answer to my question but I'm still left wanting 
Let's say I want to go out for a bimble around the skies, remaining outside of all controlled airspace for the entire flight on a nice, sunny, cloud-free day. I'm VFR throughout.
Now, I think I'd be okay just carrying a relevant VNC but a mate of mine insists that I'd need all the other charts available i.e ERC, WAC, VNC & VTC. Reading the rules, I've 'selected' the VNC from the AIP's list (Gen 0.1, 9.1) and, as far as I'm concerned that's 'applicable' to the flight I'm carrying out (CAR 233). Why would I want to carry all that other gumph when it's not relevant to my flight, where I know where I am, I'm clear of any regulated airspace and I'm just looking out the window all the time?
My 'day' job involves boring holes in the sky, IFR, so I'd like to get things right, just in case Mr CASA turns up and has a hissy fit because he thinks I'm doing something naughty.
So, leaving aside opinions such as "This is what I carry because it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling", is anybody able to offer a definitive answer to my question; what charts am I legally required to carry? References in addition to mine would be appreciated.
Thank you
AIP GEN 0.1
CAR233
Let's say I want to go out for a bimble around the skies, remaining outside of all controlled airspace for the entire flight on a nice, sunny, cloud-free day. I'm VFR throughout.
Now, I think I'd be okay just carrying a relevant VNC but a mate of mine insists that I'd need all the other charts available i.e ERC, WAC, VNC & VTC. Reading the rules, I've 'selected' the VNC from the AIP's list (Gen 0.1, 9.1) and, as far as I'm concerned that's 'applicable' to the flight I'm carrying out (CAR 233). Why would I want to carry all that other gumph when it's not relevant to my flight, where I know where I am, I'm clear of any regulated airspace and I'm just looking out the window all the time?
My 'day' job involves boring holes in the sky, IFR, so I'd like to get things right, just in case Mr CASA turns up and has a hissy fit because he thinks I'm doing something naughty.
So, leaving aside opinions such as "This is what I carry because it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling", is anybody able to offer a definitive answer to my question; what charts am I legally required to carry? References in addition to mine would be appreciated.
Thank you
AIP GEN 0.1
9. RELEVANT DOCUMENTS AND CHARTS
9.1 To ensure compliance with CAR 233.(1)(h), a pilot in command must have access during flight to appropriate documents and charts selected from the following:
a. VFR: ERC,WAC,VNC,VTC and ERSA for the route being flown.
9.1 To ensure compliance with CAR 233.(1)(h), a pilot in command must have access during flight to appropriate documents and charts selected from the following:
a. VFR: ERC,WAC,VNC,VTC and ERSA for the route being flown.
(h)the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable:
(i)to the route to be flown; and
(ii)to any alternative route that may be flown on that flight;
(i)to the route to be flown; and
(ii)to any alternative route that may be flown on that flight;
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Appropriate and selected from
So a jolly from your farm strip in the back of beyond..... The local WAC is all there is!
Surely it is not harder than that, unless there is another stupid rule buried elsewhere.
So a jolly from your farm strip in the back of beyond..... The local WAC is all there is!
Surely it is not harder than that, unless there is another stupid rule buried elsewhere.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: East
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I once had a discussion with an FOI about that.
If you where to conduct a flight in the local area OCTA and you could demonstrate a knowledge of the area and that your operation was not going to infringe controlled airspace (i.e. I remained less than 2000ft and north of X which is 5nm north of the 2000ft step) then there would not be any charts appropriate for the flight.
I'm not game enough to test that theory just in case another FOI disagrees with it. In your case id do the same and take the VNC or VTC.
If you where to conduct a flight in the local area OCTA and you could demonstrate a knowledge of the area and that your operation was not going to infringe controlled airspace (i.e. I remained less than 2000ft and north of X which is 5nm north of the 2000ft step) then there would not be any charts appropriate for the flight.
I'm not game enough to test that theory just in case another FOI disagrees with it. In your case id do the same and take the VNC or VTC.
Last edited by NIK320; 23rd Aug 2012 at 09:50.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: GPS Signal Lost
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well assuming that you go for a flight from A ----> B with both destinations within the vicinity of the appropriate chart. Then I interpret that as;
So if A and B are on a VTC why should I carry 1,2,3? 
Nowhere in the regs or AIP does it clarify that you need to carry ALL documentation!
"a pilot in command must have access during flight to appropriate documents and charts"
(i)to the route to be flown; and
(ii)to any alternative route that may be flown on that flight
(i)to the route to be flown; and
(ii)to any alternative route that may be flown on that flight
Nowhere in the regs or AIP does it clarify that you need to carry ALL documentation!
THis one came up in a testing officer refresher recently.
The answer from the Flight Training and Testing office seemed to be "Common sense applies".
ie: If relevant, a VNC will substitute nicely for WAC+ERC.
It was about the most sensible thing I have heard form a CASA officer for years
The answer from the Flight Training and Testing office seemed to be "Common sense applies".
ie: If relevant, a VNC will substitute nicely for WAC+ERC.
It was about the most sensible thing I have heard form a CASA officer for years
Jaba, would disagree in that the WAC does not provide frequency information, therefore I advise that an ERC would also be required.
Horatio & TG, in total agreement.
My next curly one...
Does "information and instructions, published in AIP" mean you carry them too?
Have flown for companies that explicitly require them in the ops manual and personally, I always carry them...
Horatio & TG, in total agreement.
My next curly one...
Does "information and instructions, published in AIP" mean you carry them too?
Have flown for companies that explicitly require them in the ops manual and personally, I always carry them...
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Australia
Age: 44
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why would you need to know what "frequencies" to be on if you don't carry a radio?? and if you don't have enough fuel to even reach Controlled airspace, wouldn't the WAC be the only relevant chart required?
Last edited by trolleydriver; 23rd Aug 2012 at 20:35.
Its the mere fact that arguments like these are even possible in Australia that tells me that the regulations are legalistic crap.
Why ferchissake is it so hard to put down a simple "Must have", "Should have", "Could have" based on the intended route, aircraft range and duration and put us all out of our misery?
This ranges from WAC or VTC/VNC onwards and upwards.
To my limited way of thinking, it is foolish not to have access to the details of any airport you might conceivably divert to. In my case that means carrying ERSA, VNC/VTC, WAC outside the Melbourne basin and a PCA plus ERC if I am touring.
And of course the trusty Ipad with OZ-Runways
I didn't need to open a single paper document on the last Ten day tour. Even had the POH and VFG on it for good measure.
Why ferchissake is it so hard to put down a simple "Must have", "Should have", "Could have" based on the intended route, aircraft range and duration and put us all out of our misery?
This ranges from WAC or VTC/VNC onwards and upwards.
To my limited way of thinking, it is foolish not to have access to the details of any airport you might conceivably divert to. In my case that means carrying ERSA, VNC/VTC, WAC outside the Melbourne basin and a PCA plus ERC if I am touring.
And of course the trusty Ipad with OZ-Runways
I didn't need to open a single paper document on the last Ten day tour. Even had the POH and VFG on it for good measure.
Sunfish, I assume that you had not seen CASA's latest draft of the Part 91 operational regs? The current reg is fine, what is missing is a sensible CAAP (or AC when or if the new regs come out).
OzRunways is taken care of nicely by a new draft CAAP on EFBs. In fact, for private ops the draft CAAP is enough because it clearly (well, almost clearly) explains existing laws.
OzRunways is taken care of nicely by a new draft CAAP on EFBs. In fact, for private ops the draft CAAP is enough because it clearly (well, almost clearly) explains existing laws.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 1996
Location: Check with Ops
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Triathlon,
I have to admit I enjoy flying around without the constant blare of people talking all the time. It's bad enough when I'm getting paid to do it, so being able to turn off the wireless and just enjoy the view is something I relish. I'm in WA and benefit from a LOT of airspace that doesn't have lines drawn all over it and large airfields with their associated restrictions and so I'll quite often do my CTAF stuff and once clear of the field I'll turn the volume to zero, keep my peepers busy looking outside and bathe in the serenity that is Class G
So, back to the subject at hand. I realise your first quote above is sensible but where is that actually stated? For instance, if we take Jaba's scenario where Bloggs launches from his farm strip in the GAFA, why would he need a VNC/VTC where there is no airspace around him? Likewise, why can he not have either a list of local CTAF freqs (if applicable) or, indeed, write the same on his WAC? I know I'm being facetious with my argument but I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this thing and find out the no-**** legal requirements, which aren't necessarily what one might do on a day-to-day basis i.e. Bloggs might well carry a VNC because he wants to, rather than being required to.
MakeItHappen, same thing I suppose. Why not write any freqs that might be needed on the WAC?
Sunfish, your summary of the 'legalistic crap' situation is exactly why I have posed this question. There are too many vague statements which are then open to interpretation. Taking it to extremes, if I'm off on my bimble around the local area (as detailed above) and carry a sheet of paper from the ERSA with an alternate that I MAY divert to, if somebody spoils my home airfield's runway (and the grass is to soggy) then I could argue that I'm not required to carry any charts at all. After all, I'm not flying a route and, therefore there's not an applicable chart. I'm sure an FOI would have a different take on the matter and therein lies the problem. Because the regulation is not clear-cut it's open to interpretation and CASA seems to have a fair few arseclams in the misinterpretation department, who I'd rather not have to cross swords with. Again, I know I'm being an argumentative knob and I do, in reality, carry suitable charts but maybe I should have been a lawyer as I do enjoy trying to settle these types of questions once and for all
You require a chart or charts which give you information to navigate visually, airspace and frequencies.
Who really wants to be flying around in an aircraft without a radio? I personally like to know who else us out there.
So ya need a chart with frequencies!
So ya need a chart with frequencies!
So, back to the subject at hand. I realise your first quote above is sensible but where is that actually stated? For instance, if we take Jaba's scenario where Bloggs launches from his farm strip in the GAFA, why would he need a VNC/VTC where there is no airspace around him? Likewise, why can he not have either a list of local CTAF freqs (if applicable) or, indeed, write the same on his WAC? I know I'm being facetious with my argument but I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this thing and find out the no-**** legal requirements, which aren't necessarily what one might do on a day-to-day basis i.e. Bloggs might well carry a VNC because he wants to, rather than being required to.
MakeItHappen, same thing I suppose. Why not write any freqs that might be needed on the WAC?
Sunfish, your summary of the 'legalistic crap' situation is exactly why I have posed this question. There are too many vague statements which are then open to interpretation. Taking it to extremes, if I'm off on my bimble around the local area (as detailed above) and carry a sheet of paper from the ERSA with an alternate that I MAY divert to, if somebody spoils my home airfield's runway (and the grass is to soggy) then I could argue that I'm not required to carry any charts at all. After all, I'm not flying a route and, therefore there's not an applicable chart. I'm sure an FOI would have a different take on the matter and therein lies the problem. Because the regulation is not clear-cut it's open to interpretation and CASA seems to have a fair few arseclams in the misinterpretation department, who I'd rather not have to cross swords with. Again, I know I'm being an argumentative knob and I do, in reality, carry suitable charts but maybe I should have been a lawyer as I do enjoy trying to settle these types of questions once and for all
Last edited by Pontius; 24th Aug 2012 at 01:29.
Pontius,
Could I suggest you take a careful look at the rule book.
The situation of "no radio" and a radio that you don't want to use are very different.
The penalties for having a (serviceable) radio, and not keeping a listening watch are substantial.
Tootle pip!!
PS 1: Re. the draft 91 and 135, have you noticed the number offenses that carry the maximum 50 penalty points, even for matter that I would regard as trivial.
PS 2: Sunfish, spot on again.
Could I suggest you take a careful look at the rule book.
The situation of "no radio" and a radio that you don't want to use are very different.
The penalties for having a (serviceable) radio, and not keeping a listening watch are substantial.
Tootle pip!!
PS 1: Re. the draft 91 and 135, have you noticed the number offenses that carry the maximum 50 penalty points, even for matter that I would regard as trivial.
PS 2: Sunfish, spot on again.
Last edited by LeadSled; 24th Aug 2012 at 03:51.
BTW I am fairly sure I have seen an NPRM about "bimbling" and making "Bimbling" an offence of strict liability.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
I'm in WA and benefit from a LOT of airspace that doesn't have lines drawn all over it and large airfields with their associated restrictions and so I'll quite often do my CTAF stuff and once clear of the field I'll turn the volume to zero, keep my peepers busy looking outside and bathe in the serenity that is Class G
I'll answer that for you. You can't. You are probably that f@&#}!t who I nearly clobbered one day in the middle of WA a few years back in a turboprop going into a station strip despite my calls on area.
If you want to play risky, fine. Go and race cars or climb mountains or do low level aeros. Don't increase the risk to other pilots who are going about their job and wanting to get home to their family for tea. U got a radio? Use the f^£>%#}ng thing.
[\rant]
Compressor stall I agree with you 100%
pontius pontius pontius. There are always those that just choose to do as they wish. Just carry the maps, turn the radio on and conduct yourself like a pilot should, whether your in the outback or terminal area. I can enjoy the view and listen to the radio at the same time. It's what pilots do isn't it?
Maybe I am from old school!
pontius pontius pontius. There are always those that just choose to do as they wish. Just carry the maps, turn the radio on and conduct yourself like a pilot should, whether your in the outback or terminal area. I can enjoy the view and listen to the radio at the same time. It's what pilots do isn't it?
Maybe I am from old school!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 1996
Location: Check with Ops
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LeadSled,
Thank you for your suggestion re The Rule Book. I did indeed have a look at it and I'm pleased to say it proves every day is a school day and I learnt something useful about listening watch and the requirements of Reg 243. That'll teach me to assume the same rules apply in Australia as they did in my 'old country'
Compressor Stall,
No, it wasn't me in the middle of WA nearly getting clobbered by you. I know this because I've never been anywhere near the middle of WA, nor any 'stations'. As I said above, I've learnt the error of my ways regarding a listening watch in Australia and will not sin again. However, to answer your specific questions (a)when bimbling I don't fly along in straight lines. I'm often turning and regularly clear the airspace to the side and behind me, so stand as good a chance as anybody in Class G airspace at seeing conflicting traffic (b)the altitudes at which I bimble, versus their distance from any airfields would put me way below any aircraft on a normal descent profile into those locations (c)before you talk about approaching aircraft below that profile because of low(ish) cloud, I don't bimble on such days (d)where I slip the surly bonds of Earth we have no turboprop traffic, save for the very occasional RFDS PC12. And, for what it's worth, I've done the low level aeros without 'playing risky'.
Thank you for your suggestion re The Rule Book. I did indeed have a look at it and I'm pleased to say it proves every day is a school day and I learnt something useful about listening watch and the requirements of Reg 243. That'll teach me to assume the same rules apply in Australia as they did in my 'old country'
Compressor Stall,
No, it wasn't me in the middle of WA nearly getting clobbered by you. I know this because I've never been anywhere near the middle of WA, nor any 'stations'. As I said above, I've learnt the error of my ways regarding a listening watch in Australia and will not sin again. However, to answer your specific questions (a)when bimbling I don't fly along in straight lines. I'm often turning and regularly clear the airspace to the side and behind me, so stand as good a chance as anybody in Class G airspace at seeing conflicting traffic (b)the altitudes at which I bimble, versus their distance from any airfields would put me way below any aircraft on a normal descent profile into those locations (c)before you talk about approaching aircraft below that profile because of low(ish) cloud, I don't bimble on such days (d)where I slip the surly bonds of Earth we have no turboprop traffic, save for the very occasional RFDS PC12. And, for what it's worth, I've done the low level aeros without 'playing risky'.
Pontius, glad to hear that you will keep an ear out from now.
For the record there are many aircraft landing at airstrips not marked on WAC charts or ERCs etc. Just because there is no CTAF does not mean that there are no aircraft in the circuit for a station (farm) strip with the pilot eyes downcast trying to ascertain the wind and see if there are any cows on the strip.
And funny you should mention that very occasional RFDS PC12. That's what I was poling when I nearly ran over someone not taking on the radio. They might be occasional to you, but to the people flying them daily they aren't.
Fly safe, and listen out.
Regards
CS
For the record there are many aircraft landing at airstrips not marked on WAC charts or ERCs etc. Just because there is no CTAF does not mean that there are no aircraft in the circuit for a station (farm) strip with the pilot eyes downcast trying to ascertain the wind and see if there are any cows on the strip.
And funny you should mention that very occasional RFDS PC12. That's what I was poling when I nearly ran over someone not taking on the radio. They might be occasional to you, but to the people flying them daily they aren't.
Fly safe, and listen out.
Regards
CS
Last edited by compressor stall; 25th Aug 2012 at 05:56.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Make it Happen
Read my post again.....this time carefully
126.7 might just be the most appropriate and if you know for 200nm the area is 123.95 should you get high enough to use it, you dont need a chart in your back paddock!
Think About It Captain!
Read my post again.....this time carefully
126.7 might just be the most appropriate and if you know for 200nm the area is 123.95 should you get high enough to use it, you dont need a chart in your back paddock!
Think About It Captain!
Hey Jabba
What about this one.
What if I flew a 3 HR nav exercise which I have done 100 times before. I know the route, know the frequencies I need to monitor, call up for clearances, if I carried just a WAC does that make it right?
What about this one.
What if I flew a 3 HR nav exercise which I have done 100 times before. I know the route, know the frequencies I need to monitor, call up for clearances, if I carried just a WAC does that make it right?