VFR Bimbling Chart Requirements
As a point of order, I don't think 'bimbling' should be a term ever associated with aviation.
Tooling around, perhaps, preferably without thumb in bum and mind in neutral, or hack, rack and zooming if conducting aeros, but bimbling just doesn't work for me, I'm sorry.
Tooling around, perhaps, preferably without thumb in bum and mind in neutral, or hack, rack and zooming if conducting aeros, but bimbling just doesn't work for me, I'm sorry.
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triathlon,
I see your point, however in your example you have expanded way outside the farmer flying around his paddocks in the back of beyond and below 1000AGL. I am not saying you can apply this across the board of familiar routes etc.
In your case, what if something had changed recently, and you had to refer to an ERC or a diversion and needed info on Airport XYZ.
For the farm guy, the area frequency change, boundary change, or a diversion airport is not a factor. If he diverts it is which paddock do I land on?
Carrying a full load of charts, will have no meaning.
Just one extreme to another. So what does the law really require in this extreme?
The original post is another little Gem of pprune D&G
I see your point, however in your example you have expanded way outside the farmer flying around his paddocks in the back of beyond and below 1000AGL. I am not saying you can apply this across the board of familiar routes etc.
In your case, what if something had changed recently, and you had to refer to an ERC or a diversion and needed info on Airport XYZ.
For the farm guy, the area frequency change, boundary change, or a diversion airport is not a factor. If he diverts it is which paddock do I land on?
Carrying a full load of charts, will have no meaning.
Just one extreme to another. So what does the law really require in this extreme?
The original post is another little Gem of pprune D&G
Last edited by Jabawocky; 26th Aug 2012 at 07:20.
Jaba,
Does NOT say appropriate and selected from.
Oh, did I misinterpret your response?
I thought the OP wanted to know what they needed to avoid an FOI getting upset?
Read the original post, and the CAR, this time, carefully....
Say someone's going for a tootle (not a bimble) around their property and sees a situation worthy of a call to someone more important than anyone who's not on the CTAF, (lets say a crashed RV
). Where do you get the area freq from?
Don't think it's wise to make up a scenario that encourages pilots to head off with only a WAC on board. Think about it.
The pilot in command of an aircraft must not commence a flight if;
(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable
are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the flight crew.
(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable
are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the flight crew.
Oh, did I misinterpret your response?
I thought the OP wanted to know what they needed to avoid an FOI getting upset?
Read the original post, and the CAR, this time, carefully....
Say someone's going for a tootle (not a bimble) around their property and sees a situation worthy of a call to someone more important than anyone who's not on the CTAF, (lets say a crashed RV
). Where do you get the area freq from?Don't think it's wise to make up a scenario that encourages pilots to head off with only a WAC on board. Think about it.
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MIHC
I agree with you, and I don't condone minimum information.....heck I have a reputation built on far too much information!
But lets look at my post
Seriously what else is applicable and or useful.
And in your scenario.....Retrad vehicle bingled on said farm, out in the back of beyond. An ERC, ERSA or any other chart is farking useless.
Do you need a chart to activate your PLB/EPIRB/ELT and assuming you could dial up a frequency such as an area frequency, how do I get pranged retard vehicle or piper cub or C185 above 2000' in such a wrecked state? How many pilots do not know what 121.5 and its use is?
I am perfectly capable of reading CAR's CAO's and anything else just like you are, but just for a minute, apply a dose of reality.
This is the crux of the matter....I just took the hypothetical to an extreme.
Don't read more into it than that.
I agree with you, and I don't condone minimum information.....heck I have a reputation built on far too much information!
But lets look at my post
Appropriate and selected from
So a jolly from your farm strip in the back of beyond..... The local WAC is all there is!
Surely it is not harder than that, unless there is another stupid rule buried elsewhere.
So a jolly from your farm strip in the back of beyond..... The local WAC is all there is!
Surely it is not harder than that, unless there is another stupid rule buried elsewhere.
And in your scenario.....Retrad vehicle bingled on said farm, out in the back of beyond. An ERC, ERSA or any other chart is farking useless.
Do you need a chart to activate your PLB/EPIRB/ELT and assuming you could dial up a frequency such as an area frequency, how do I get pranged retard vehicle or piper cub or C185 above 2000' in such a wrecked state? How many pilots do not know what 121.5 and its use is?
I am perfectly capable of reading CAR's CAO's and anything else just like you are, but just for a minute, apply a dose of reality.
Let's say I want to go out for a bimble around the skies, remaining outside of all controlled airspace for the entire flight on a nice, sunny, cloud-free day. I'm VFR throughout.
Now, I think I'd be okay just carrying a relevant VNC but a mate of mine insists that I'd need all the other charts available i.e ERC, WAC, VNC & VTC. Reading the rules, I've 'selected' the VNC from the AIP's list (Gen 0.1, 9.1) and, as far as I'm concerned that's 'applicable' to the flight I'm carrying out (CAR 233). Why would I want to carry all that other gumph when it's not relevant to my flight, where I know where I am, I'm clear of any regulated airspace and I'm just looking out the window all the time?
Now, I think I'd be okay just carrying a relevant VNC but a mate of mine insists that I'd need all the other charts available i.e ERC, WAC, VNC & VTC. Reading the rules, I've 'selected' the VNC from the AIP's list (Gen 0.1, 9.1) and, as far as I'm concerned that's 'applicable' to the flight I'm carrying out (CAR 233). Why would I want to carry all that other gumph when it's not relevant to my flight, where I know where I am, I'm clear of any regulated airspace and I'm just looking out the window all the time?
Don't read more into it than that.
I would actually suggest that you may in some cases have better luck on the area fequency than 121.5.
And you seen to forget just how big some "farms" in Australia can be.
Did I say it was your RV that was damaged?
Any number of scenarios that might require authorities being called. Vehicle accident one possibility.
I agree 100% that a lap of the strip, commonsense speaking, shouldn't require the entire Airservices library to be carried, however remember that your profile on here carries a bit of respect and you need to make sure you aren't seen to be encouraging poor airmanship. Quite easy for someone here to think you were referring to wider applications.
Think about that. (Yeah, those kind of comments kinda annoy me, too, so if you don't put 'em out there, I won't either)
And you seen to forget just how big some "farms" in Australia can be.
Did I say it was your RV that was damaged?
Any number of scenarios that might require authorities being called. Vehicle accident one possibility.
I agree 100% that a lap of the strip, commonsense speaking, shouldn't require the entire Airservices library to be carried, however remember that your profile on here carries a bit of respect and you need to make sure you aren't seen to be encouraging poor airmanship. Quite easy for someone here to think you were referring to wider applications.
Think about that. (Yeah, those kind of comments kinda annoy me, too, so if you don't put 'em out there, I won't either)
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The pilot in command of an aircraft must not commence a flight if;
(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable
are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the flight crew.
(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable
are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the flight crew.
I hope you typed that and didn't copy and paste out of the regs as I interpret that to mean I must not fly if i am carrying maps...
Jaba Jaba Jaba
Never have I seen a person try so hard to twist the law.
If you are doing as little as circuits, on your outback farm strip, have on hand a map which you can navigate with and a map which has frequencies.
OK. Maybe that is a load of bull&&it to carry the above mentioned documents, who gives a sh&t, it's the law pal!
Never have I seen a person try so hard to twist the law.
If you are doing as little as circuits, on your outback farm strip, have on hand a map which you can navigate with and a map which has frequencies.
OK. Maybe that is a load of bull&&it to carry the above mentioned documents, who gives a sh&t, it's the law pal!
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Triathlon,
First of all it must be said that we're arguing the semantics of the regulations and not necessarily what is either sensible or what we would actually do. Having said that, I'm with Jaba on this one. We are required to select publications from the 'list' that are applicable to the route we're flying. In the back of beyond I would say a WAC is applicable and it could be argued that carrying only that complies with the letter of the law (again, not necessarily what we'd actually do).
Please show me where the regs say we have to have frequencies on the map. If that is indeed law and if a WAC is the only applicable chart, then a well-meaning and law-abiding pilot would be breaking the law by only carrying a WAC......even if he has an ERSA sitting next to him. See what I mean about semantics 
First of all it must be said that we're arguing the semantics of the regulations and not necessarily what is either sensible or what we would actually do. Having said that, I'm with Jaba on this one. We are required to select publications from the 'list' that are applicable to the route we're flying. In the back of beyond I would say a WAC is applicable and it could be argued that carrying only that complies with the letter of the law (again, not necessarily what we'd actually do).
a map which has frequencies........it's the law pal
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That's a bit petulant, Triathlon. What you have written regarding charts is sensible and what 99% of pilots would actually do on a day-to-day basis. However, if you're going to say something is the law (frequencies on charts), then one should be able to provide a reference to that law; rather than it being a personal opinion on an interpretation of the law (which may very well be correct). Jaba has postulated a hypothetical situation which is, as far as I read the rules, legal and above board. It just shows how liberally the rules can be read and goes back to what Sunfish said about CASA and rule writing.
I would suggest you haven't been educated, rather had it re-emphasised that the regs are in some instances non specific enough that they can be interpreted in differing ways. What I may think is 'applicable' could differ from what an FOI thinks is 'applicable' and I don't think that is good enough if we're referring to regulations.
Edited to add: Saturday's bimble involved carrying a VNC, WAC and ERSA and I even left the wireless volume up and gave everybody a damned good listening to; so it's not true what they say about old dogs and tricks. I didn't hear any RFDS aircraft but I did hear 'Bob' and 'Joe' discussing a good fishing spot and it's location. I don't know who 'Bob' and 'Joe' are but I'm not sure 126.7 is the best frequency for that, maybe Channel 87
I would suggest you haven't been educated, rather had it re-emphasised that the regs are in some instances non specific enough that they can be interpreted in differing ways. What I may think is 'applicable' could differ from what an FOI thinks is 'applicable' and I don't think that is good enough if we're referring to regulations.
Edited to add: Saturday's bimble involved carrying a VNC, WAC and ERSA and I even left the wireless volume up and gave everybody a damned good listening to; so it's not true what they say about old dogs and tricks. I didn't hear any RFDS aircraft but I did hear 'Bob' and 'Joe' discussing a good fishing spot and it's location. I don't know who 'Bob' and 'Joe' are but I'm not sure 126.7 is the best frequency for that, maybe Channel 87
Last edited by Pontius; 27th Aug 2012 at 10:51.
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MIHC,
Good point, we should all be careful as to how a newbie would read things, and I am always on others cases about that, so fair call.
Like I said before, none of us would fly that way, least of all me or Forkie he out info's me! But it does show one size does not fit all.
Just like so many rules and regs.......no clear answers, often lots of opinion. Optimal operations usually cover more than the basics the regs require.
Cheers!
J
Good point, we should all be careful as to how a newbie would read things, and I am always on others cases about that, so fair call.
Like I said before, none of us would fly that way, least of all me or Forkie
he out info's me! But it does show one size does not fit all.Just like so many rules and regs.......no clear answers, often lots of opinion. Optimal operations usually cover more than the basics the regs require.
Cheers!
J
(1)
The pilot in command of an aircraft must not commence a flight if he or she has not received evidence, and taken such action as is necessary to ensure, that:
The pilot in command of an aircraft must not commence a flight if he or she has not received evidence, and taken such action as is necessary to ensure, that:
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 27th Aug 2012 at 12:07.
The pilot in command of an aircraft must not commence a flight if;
(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable
are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the flight crew.
Somewhere deep in the bowels of CASA a lawyer is laughing.
The only way to be actually safe is to carry everything available, all the time, and it had better not be in the rear locker where you can't get at it in flight.
To put that another way: applicable = "capable or suitable for being applied."
The lawyers have refused to define the minimum information required. That is why the "other aeronautical information" catch all is there. In other words even if you have no intention of landing at XYZ, you are required to have all available "aeronautical information" for XYZ if your aircraft is capable of reaching XYZ under current flight conditions.
"Its all on my Ipad" doesn't cut it either - hence my Twenty pound flight bag whenever I go touring.
(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable
are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the flight crew.
Somewhere deep in the bowels of CASA a lawyer is laughing.
The only way to be actually safe is to carry everything available, all the time, and it had better not be in the rear locker where you can't get at it in flight.
To put that another way: applicable = "capable or suitable for being applied."
The lawyers have refused to define the minimum information required. That is why the "other aeronautical information" catch all is there. In other words even if you have no intention of landing at XYZ, you are required to have all available "aeronautical information" for XYZ if your aircraft is capable of reaching XYZ under current flight conditions.
"Its all on my Ipad" doesn't cut it either - hence my Twenty pound flight bag whenever I go touring.
Last edited by Sunfish; 27th Aug 2012 at 22:04.
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"Its all on my Ipad" doesn't cut it either
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...1os_annexd.pdf
*draft*, but shows CASA's current line of thinking
*draft*, but shows CASA's current line of thinking
Aeromatt.
So what happens when your battery goes flat? Don't laugh. I know an FOI who asked a pilot to show him the electronic copies and as he fired his ipad up, the battery low message flashed and the system shut down.
Jeppesen still issues paper maps with electronic subscriptions and you have to buy a copy of Jeppview to print out the relevant charts.
Ozrunways is not updated every two weeks as Jepps are. How do you amend charts in the meantime?
So what happens when your battery goes flat? Don't laugh. I know an FOI who asked a pilot to show him the electronic copies and as he fired his ipad up, the battery low message flashed and the system shut down.
Jeppesen still issues paper maps with electronic subscriptions and you have to buy a copy of Jeppview to print out the relevant charts.
Ozrunways is not updated every two weeks as Jepps are. How do you amend charts in the meantime?
Ozrunways is not updated every two weeks as Jepps are. How do you amend charts in the meantime?
So now tell me how you amend an electronic chart that is only reissued every three months.
Bit hard to write on an ipad...
Bit hard to write on an ipad...
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Not trying to be argumentative but Sunfish stated quite matter of factly that an iPad wouldn't cut it, to the best of my knowledge until the proposed changes are implemented there is nothing saying I can't use my iPad and nothing saying the charts which must be carried need to be printed on paper.
I don't have an instrument rating so I can't speak for the practicalities (or not) of having IFR charts in electronic form but the VFR maps and ERSA are updated on Ozrunways in line with the paper versions.
I still carry paper copies of the WAC, VTC and ERC along with printed ERSA pages for airfields I plan to or am likely to divert to as I like to write things on them as I'm flying, there is no way I'm carrying 20lbs worth of ERSA, AIP and every map when they're all there in electronic format. A power adaptor for the iPad so you can charge it on the go will sort out the battery issue.
I don't have an instrument rating so I can't speak for the practicalities (or not) of having IFR charts in electronic form but the VFR maps and ERSA are updated on Ozrunways in line with the paper versions.
I still carry paper copies of the WAC, VTC and ERC along with printed ERSA pages for airfields I plan to or am likely to divert to as I like to write things on them as I'm flying, there is no way I'm carrying 20lbs worth of ERSA, AIP and every map when they're all there in electronic format. A power adaptor for the iPad so you can charge it on the go will sort out the battery issue.