Norfolk Island Ditching ATSB Report - ?
Plan to an isolated airport (at any time or wx) without an alternate? Just not defendable.
Absolute rubbish, you obviously have little knowledge of the law and practice for fuel requirements for isolated airports.
Over the years, I could not count the number of occasions when I have set off for an isolated airport (no realistic alternate) and have arrived without an alternate.
Indeed, the airline I worked for would not have been able to operate a significant part of its operation if an alternate was required for all operations to remote/island airports.
The Four Corners program is a sobering reminder of the paucity of compensation for many industrial injuries, and where money is concerned, there is no justice, only the law.
Tootle pip!!
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Sticky,
I could not help but wonder the same thing.
You are a sticky little beak
I wonder that if (arising from the proposed coronial hearing) there is any identified relationship (or suggestion thereof) between Ms Currall's passing and the NGA accident this might just be sufficient to justify a coronial investigation into the circumstances surrounding the accident.
You are a sticky little beak
Ok no Alternate but did he calculate a PNR based on one and two Engine return to Noumea?
Did he then check the weather etc just before the PNR to make an informed decision??
He should not have been surprised at TOD regarding the weather at Norfolk Island, he should have been on top of it at all times.
I've never flown there but I'd like to think my pucker factor not to mention survival instinct would have dictated a little more follow up of the actual weathers considering the fact it was Norfolk Island we were flying to ( with no Alternate ) and not Sydney.
Yes he may have had a TAF but even I know the reputation of Norfolk........
mmmmmm ok thought not...
Did he then check the weather etc just before the PNR to make an informed decision??
He should not have been surprised at TOD regarding the weather at Norfolk Island, he should have been on top of it at all times.
I've never flown there but I'd like to think my pucker factor not to mention survival instinct would have dictated a little more follow up of the actual weathers considering the fact it was Norfolk Island we were flying to ( with no Alternate ) and not Sydney.
Yes he may have had a TAF but even I know the reputation of Norfolk........
mmmmmm ok thought not...
Last edited by ACMS; 24th Mar 2015 at 07:56.
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And I would have carried as much Jet A1 as possible.......
Do please try to do all the reading surrounding this crash. There is far more to it than would first appear.
Huh? So a Westwind cannot climb above FL290 at MTOW?
Surely at MTOW a Westwind could make the high 30's? ( 350 360 )
I dont understand your reasoning?
He was RVSM capable wasn't he? So he would have planned optimum FL's which at MTOW would be FLXX for a Westwind.......why would carrying an extra hour or so fuel screw his FL capability that much??
Do tell
Surely at MTOW a Westwind could make the high 30's? ( 350 360 )
I dont understand your reasoning?
He was RVSM capable wasn't he? So he would have planned optimum FL's which at MTOW would be FLXX for a Westwind.......why would carrying an extra hour or so fuel screw his FL capability that much??
Do tell
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Good Crikey article on the RVSM/fuel planning debacle here;
ATSB Pel-Air report excluded critical fuel factor | Plane Talking
ATSB Pel-Air report excluded critical fuel factor | Plane Talking
It really is no longer important what the flight crew did on the night, what 4 Corners clearly showed was the physical and emotional deterioration of Karen Casey, who 4 Corners rightly stated was the real hero of the story. Despite what the law technically is she should have been granted an ex-gratia payment by Pel-Air in recognition of what she had done. Even Dominic James looked done in by the whole deal but he at least was physically spared. I hope the judge rules in her favour but of course there will be appeals and more appeals until the money runs out.
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Indeed, the airline I worked for would not have been able to operate a significant part of its operation if an alternate was required for all operations to remote/island airports.
And therein lies the difference, there was an option at the planning stage and that was to take more fuel. There were options during the flight which have been discussed at length in this thread. In short, an apparent mindset that a landing at the destination was assured so no need to keep formulating a "plan B" as the flight progressed.
Id be very concerned if your airline had asked you to put all your eggs in the one basket before you even got airborne but in this case ..........
With Ansett, on the 146 from Learmonth to Christmas Island, we would work out a PNR back to Learmonth (or, if needs be a Last Point of Safe Diversion to Java) for Depressurised, One Engine out and two engines out and mark the most limiting of those. Before that point we would check the latest weather report from the Christmas Island observer on HF and make a commit decision.
Still occasionally came a cropper with the cap cloud which forms over the Island though - which required some unusual circuits to get onto the runway.
Still occasionally came a cropper with the cap cloud which forms over the Island though - which required some unusual circuits to get onto the runway.
This is all good stuff.
If we can reach a unanimous view that it was all the pilot's fault, we can save the ATSB the busy-work of going through the facade of another 'investigation' to reach the same conclusion as the last.
I have difficulty in believing that the patent errors in the weather information transmitted to NGA, and the weather information that was withheld from being transmitted to NGA, had no influence on the crew's appreciation of the actual and forecast weather at YSNF on the way to the point at which the decision to continue or not had to be made. And the CASA FOI population, comfy behind their desks, cuppa in hand and only the pressure of calculating their pension payments to confuse them, split 50/50 on the question whether the crew were obliged to divert, based on the weather information transmitted to NGA.
But I see, from others' posts, that the crew could have and should have known more.
I see now why Erebus was the pilot's fault.
If we can reach a unanimous view that it was all the pilot's fault, we can save the ATSB the busy-work of going through the facade of another 'investigation' to reach the same conclusion as the last.
I have difficulty in believing that the patent errors in the weather information transmitted to NGA, and the weather information that was withheld from being transmitted to NGA, had no influence on the crew's appreciation of the actual and forecast weather at YSNF on the way to the point at which the decision to continue or not had to be made. And the CASA FOI population, comfy behind their desks, cuppa in hand and only the pressure of calculating their pension payments to confuse them, split 50/50 on the question whether the crew were obliged to divert, based on the weather information transmitted to NGA.
But I see, from others' posts, that the crew could have and should have known more.
I see now why Erebus was the pilot's fault.
Don't read that opinion into my post Creampuff - I didn't intend it that way.
The Pelair manuals were deficient in flight planning methods, and so was their training (not on their Pat Malone there, though) - and the CAA allowed that - especially with the complications of not being RVSM, and not being trained on the recently fitted TCAS, to allow the full range of diversion options.
The met department admit that they cannot predict the weather at Norfolk - but don't append their TAFs with "PROB 10 FG".
The question of whether the flight was AIRWORK, with an illegal passenger, or CHARTER and lacking the diversion options that requires is yet to be addressed.
etc. etc.
The Pelair manuals were deficient in flight planning methods, and so was their training (not on their Pat Malone there, though) - and the CAA allowed that - especially with the complications of not being RVSM, and not being trained on the recently fitted TCAS, to allow the full range of diversion options.
The met department admit that they cannot predict the weather at Norfolk - but don't append their TAFs with "PROB 10 FG".
The question of whether the flight was AIRWORK, with an illegal passenger, or CHARTER and lacking the diversion options that requires is yet to be addressed.
etc. etc.
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But I see, from others' posts, that the crew could have and should have known more.
I see now why Erebus was the pilot's fault.
Fail to see any similarity between the two occurences, but interesting to see you have come to a conclusion re Erebus after all these years.
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To qualify my last comment for Leadsled. What I should have said was,
"without an alternate, that otherwise could have been carried"
I get you re ops to remote islands. Glad I don't have to do them.
"without an alternate, that otherwise could have been carried"
I get you re ops to remote islands. Glad I don't have to do them.