Norfolk Island Ditching ATSB Report - ?

[Jabawocky]

My head hurts.

I think these guys have a clever and advanced for of QCAS, just like TCAS but for questions. And it is highly effective.

And lots of arse covering by Dr Aleck as well.

Senator X must be a very patient man......I would have gone postal during that exchange.

[morno]

Can't wait to see episode 2, .

That's the best attempt I've ever seen at avoiding a bunch of questions.

morno

[Wally Mk2]

It looks like CASA has knocked Cosentino off the top of the list for 'illusionary' trickery!:-)


Wmk2

[Kharon]

Sea Air for all.

RW # 601 "My confidence in our aviation safety regulators and accident investigation body CASA, the Civil Aviation Safety body and the ATSB have been shaken to the core," he said.
Karen Casey was injured in the crash and says the report must be acted on.
"The truth has finally been revealed," she said."

"SB# 606 "It makes interesting reading, particularly for those that think that mishandling a cover-up only compounds the original stuff up."

Reading the Hansard script, I'm surprised that CASA has not issued another press release; this time saying Karen Casey was at fault as she failed to demonstrate robust compliance with the CASA rules; failed to attend a survival at sea course and breached 20.11, they'll probably prosecute. Nothing CASA do you see can possibly be wrong, nothing. Except not only have they screwed the pooch, they buggered up the cover up and then; got caught 'at it'. Arrogance + incompetence = AFP investigation ?.....

[morno]

Why would she be at fault Kharon? She was only a passenger.

[Kharon]

Sorry Morno – sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. I have rephrased. It was early, between first and second coffee....

[Cactusjack]

Morning morno, To clarify, if I may, I think that if you read between the lines, search below the apples bobbing in the CAsA trough etc, you will find that the Ferryman is speaking in dual tongue like Indian Chief! He is speaking with tongue in cheek, he isn't blaming Karen, he is saying that he is surprised that Karen isn't getting blamed for the accident as CAsA love to blame anything and anyone as long as their own white spotty arses aren't blamed.....
I am surprised CAsA didn't blame Dom's year 8 maths, science and physics teachers for not providing Dom with a more analytical mind or the uncanny ability to sense impending weather 24 hours in advance like birds and ants can do!!!

Now, I have an armchair to prepare and a fridge to stack for day 3 of the cricket.
Funny thing, Kevin Pietersen would be make a perfect CAsA FOI, or even DAS!! Does he fly big shiny planes?

[morno]

Right, gotcha. Did sense maybe a touch of sarcasm after I'd replied earlier.

In that case, I agree, .

[Sarcs]

The Skygods are bored??

Apparently the regular Skygod readers had become bored with the Merged: Senate Inquiry thread & therefore the powers to be have decided to shut it down... Now this was despite the thread being currently the most popular on page one (active) of the ANZ&P forum and from my estimates (if the counter had been working) would have surpassed 800k views in recent days... Oh well Pprune is entitled to do what they must do...

However in the interest of some continuity and without upsetting (hopefully) the Skygods or the mods and as the PelAir insanity is really a GA issue the BRB (and some members of the IOS) have asked me to continue the Senate thread here...so here goes (big breath..) the last page of the 2nd infamous Senate Inquiry thread...

#2681 - Mooted messages?
#2682
#2683
#2684 - Episode 316: Beaker's spin recycle machine.
#2685 - The Dolan prophesy.
#2686 - Episode 317: The lone muppet mission.
#2687 - What is that awful smell?

There is a definite odour of cynicism toward Australian involvement in the MH 370 affair creeping into the international press, previously only visible on Bloggs. The bloggers caught on early and responded cynically to the Dolan involvement. I wonder what they will make of it once Pel-Air becomes the international yardstick against which any ATSB involvement, no matter how far removed, will be measured in the future.

The steaming pile Muscles McComic and Doolally Doolan have left behind for the rest to clean up will take a while to shift. Even when it's moved away the stench will linger despite the best deodorising efforts of the Word Weasels, spin doctors and the like. No matter, ATSB will investigate the ATSB, a clean sheet will be provided and all will be well once more. It's a first class move as CASA gets to slither off the hook and out the back door – once again.

Then children, you shall see a lengthy queue forming around the block of all the regulators in the known world patiently waiting to buy their signed, Senate supported copy of Part 61 and the Beyond All Reason method of air crash investigations.

Absolutely stellar Australia; just ducking wonderful.
... ..........

#2688 - Feeling the PAIN!

Absolutely stellar Australia; just ducking wonderful.

Exactly Ferryman what an embarrassing smear on the good people at the coalface that were initially involved with the surface search; & now with the underwater deep sea search; not to mention the huge waste of taxpayer funded resources if it all ends up for nought, especially if it comes out that we have either been misled or are in collusion with the Malaysians...

If that were to transpire then indeed the parallels with the PelAir cover-up would be complete...

While on the subject of the PelAir debacle I noticed the following has been posted courtesy of Australian Flying online - ATSB to feel PAIN over Pel-Air Investigation

A confidential group known as the Professional Aviators Investigative Network (PAIN) has raised concerns over the ATSB review of the Pel-Air ditching report.

Late last year, the ATSB agreed to review the report into the 2009 ditching of a Pel-Air aeromedical flight at Norfolk Island, after a Canadian review highlighted anomalies with the investigation report.

In a submission to the Senate Standing Committee on Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport (RRAT) written in December, the group has criticised the ATSB's decision to use one of their own people to lead the review.

"... the ATSB [has] elected to utilise Dr Michael Walker of the ATSB to lead the investigation," the PAIN submission points out. "We believe that to be effective, any investigation should be conducted independently and not involve ATSB, the commissioners or staff if only to preclude any suspicion of 'internal' influence or external bias being raised."

PAIN is also concerned that the terms of reference announced by General Manager Aviation Safety Investigations IanSangston do not go far enough.

"The terms of reference cited by Mr Sangston are narrow and only mention the 'report' itself. Whilst the industry acknowledges that the report was substandard, there is little doubt that the investigators conducted their work with integrity and within the prescribed guidelines. Indeed, the early stages of the ATSB report were exemplary and clearly directed toward serious safety recommendations being made.

"We believe little will be gained by utilising scarce resources re-investigating the original ATSB investigative 'reports'."

Instead, PAIN points the finger of blame for the original Pel-Air investigation report squarely at the both CASA and the ATSB and hints at deeper issues.

"Our greatest concern is that a deliberate, calculated manipulation of the national aviation safety system was attempted. It is not a 'one off' aberration. We firmly believe that the subsequent actions of both the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) and the ATSB were proven, by the AAI [RRAT inquiry] committee, to grossly pervert the conclusions of the ATSB investigation to suit a clearly predetermined outcome, thus denying industry valuable, safety related knowledge and information.

"It is the process by which these subsequent events occurred which demands an independent investigation conducted transparently in public. We believe the Senate Committee is the right reporting and oversight platform for that investigation. The committee Senators are well briefed, informed and have a firm, current understanding of what transpired during the events subsequent to the Pel-Air aircraft ditching off Norfolk Island.

"Further, the Estimates committee is very clearly 'awake' to the machinations of the various aviation oversight bodies and will not easily be misled or confounded by 'technical' issues.

"We submit that any other form of investigation will not withstand the scrutiny of industry experts; as the initial premise is fatally flawed

Well done PAIN... Hmm...perhaps more IOS members should follow the PAIN initiative??

I'll be back...

[Soteria]

Sarcs, it would seem that you have caused a measure of discomfort for some of those who reside in Can'tberra! Good work son. It's nice to see that some people still have a measure of testicular fortitude so keep up the good work, whether that be on ******* or some other avenue

[thorn bird]

Well done Sarcs,

I was disappointed to see the senate thread locked, maybe things were getting too close to the truth.

Only conclusion I can come to for shutting such a popular thread is someone got paid or someone got threatened, even money on both the way things are currently in Australia.

Aint censorship a wondrous thing, someone definitely is not a Charlie!

[Sunfish]

I am intrigued that the Board of Pel Airs Owners appear to include as Directors:

(1) A former Aviation Minister.

(2) A current member of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal.

I am also intrigued that Pel AIrs owners appear to have allegedly made massive political donations to both sides of Federal politics shortly after the Pel Air ditching and have never done so on this scale before or since.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...3816c0c9ee851e



I am also intrigued that the report on the Pel Air ditching has been acknowledged as one sided and unfair in that it apparently glossed over the failings of Pel Air management and that CASA and ATSB cooperated in the " fitting up" of the pilot as solely responsible for the incident. Exactly why the ATSB and CASA chose to do this is still a mystery to me.

I am also intrigued that the person who allegedly high level managed the production of the report is also apparently involved in the management of the Senate forced "review" of it - which could hardly be called "independent" by any standards I am aware of.

Could I perhaps be forgiven for wondering if there might be linkages of some sort between all these matters or are they purely coincidental?

If these matters had occurred at a State Level in perhaps Queensland or NSW, would those States Independent Commissions against corruption be interested in casting an eye over them?

...Or am I reading too much into this?

[Kharon]

Not passing strange – business as usual.

Ah but Sunny you have at least had the benefit of a master class on how the Australian 'system' works. A five year effort, a Senate inquiry and recommendations, a parliamentary review and recommendations, followed by a peer review and recommendations. You can easily define the first class results of and benefits from all the time, trouble, effort and money invested. Has aviation been given a new lease of life, hope for the future, fighting off investors and generally doing just fine? No. you get the Senate thread discussing these matters shut down and dead silence from the government. Impressive I'd call it, not too shabby an effort at all; from the other team. No matter, we shall always have Be-a-Cur.

Speaking of the Norfolk debacle (as we must) I hear a whisper that the Pel-Air defence team have subpoenaed the children and family of flight nurse Karen Casey as witness; if this is true, then it begs the question why? What possible information or benefit can 'the family' provide to the team defending Pel-Air related to the event?, again, if true, it reeks of the sewer. Perhaps I shall find a seat in the gallery and see for myself what is happening; I shall sit with Mick and Dominic, beer and Pizza afterwards?, sounds great.

Round of applause, well done all..

[Ramjet555]

Thanks to all those who have posted here.
It's a fascinating thread and I'm hoping we hear some
more inside information.

When accidents happen and the operators go Oh $hit,
we have a problem, they seems to be normal for any and all
influences to be pulled to first cover it up, two divert attention,
keep it covered by all means and throw in more diversions.

It's a no brainer that that there was a long list of criminal negligence
from the pilot to the investigation.

It boggles the brain that he could go to a fickle weather location,
pass the point of no return without checking the weather, knowing
that if the wx turned bad, he and his passengers would have little
chance of survival.

Criminal Negligence is such a narrowly framed charge that it excludes dam near anything that a reasonable person would assume is covered but its not.

It begs a review of the CAS alternate requirements which are very different to that in other countries.

It will be interesting reading the inside scoops on this story.

[thorn bird]

"I hear a whisper that the Pel-Air defence team have subpoenaed the children and family of flight nurse Karen Casey as witness; if this is true, then it begs the question why?"

Just to confirm that lawyers are bottom feeding scumbags is all Kharon.

Or maybe they are using the Singapore Inc. method of silencing dissent.

Sue them for liable until their money runs out, or terrorise their children in the witness box until they give up.

Pel Air, what a piece of work!

[Oakape]

More on the political donations here -

Pel-Air, party donations, air safety! Just a brain fade? | Plane Talking

[Eddie Dean]

The donations have raised additional question marks because Rex has repeatedly described industry as being in crisis, stating it was “beyond crisis”, and highlighting the “graveyard” of collapsed rivals in its last annual report.

From OakApe's link
I don't see the link between the donation and being concerned about the industry

[Up-into-the-air]

Ho Eddie

Ever heard of "...payback...", ...favours..."??

Influence???

[Sarcs]

Oh by Crikey??

Guess who now controls the Senate...

Why Nick Xenophon is our most powerful man

Tick..tock..Miniscule

[Sarcs]

Oh by Crikey??

Vague minister, generous airline, Pel-Air issues mount up

Amazing and inexplicable coincidences have come to light involving party political donations from REX, the owner of Pel-Air, in 2012, after a fierce internal disagreement had broken out in that year in the ATSB over the conduct of its investigation of the ditching of a Pel-Air jet in 2009.

It’s a complex story, involving as it does the persistence of Karen Casey, the nurse who was seriously injured in the crash, in uncovering the donations, and the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, in discovering the bitter disagreements that occurred in its Australian counterpart, the ATSB, in the course of arriving at a disgraceful and discredited accident report.

It is told today in the Crikery Insider subscriber bulletin. The story coincides with continued speculation about the future of Warren Truss, the deputy PM and Nationals leader who is also responsible, but at times it seems in absentia, for aviation safety in this country.

Will Mr Truss deal with matters that involve his National Party and ministerial predecessor, John Sharp, who is on the board of REX and chairman of Pel-Air, and would therefore have knowledge of the donations? The story sets the scene for some critical questions for the Coalition, which in this case, appears to have no appetite for correcting the neglect of the Pel-Air issues which was a hallmark of Anthony Albanese’s time as Labor’s aviation minister.

Sketchy Pel-Air crash investigation raises uncomfortable questions for deputy PM

Ben Sandilands | Jan 22, 2015 12:41PM | EMAIL | PRINT

There’s plenty to worry about when it comes to crash investigation in Australia’s aviation industry — not that you’d know it from the minister’s interest in the subject.

How long can Warren Truss, the deputy PM, leader of the Nationals, and minister responsible for reannouncing Labor highway projects as well as air safety, continue to neglect the aviation part of his portfolio?

Questions about the minister’s capacity to focus and act are made all the more pressing by the extraordinary generosity to political parties by Regional Express Airlines (REX), the owners of the disgraced Pel-Air operation that dropped an air ambulance into the sea near Norfolk Island in 2009. REX’s board include the former Nationals transport minister John Sharp, who is deputy chair of REX and chair of Pel-Air.

In 2012, Australia’s air safety investigator, the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, was in a state of internal turmoil over the direction of its final report in the Pel-Air crash. That turmoil is documented in the peer review of the ATSB’s report by the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, which led to Truss instructing the ATSB in December to reopen that inquiry.
Consider what was happening in 2012 carefully.

At the end of August 2012 the ATSB produced its final crash report, which failed to mention dozens of serious deficiencies in the Pel-Air’s Westwind corporate jet division, and overlooked its own failure — as the regulator — to oversee Pel-Air, including serious problems with the airline’s fatigue management and oceanic refueling practices.

However, documents the Australian Electoral Commission recently provided to Karen Casey, the nurse who was seriously injured in the Pel-Air ditching, show that in the second half of 2012, REX donated $250,000 to Labor, $97,500 to the Nationals and $40,000 to the Liberals.

If REX knows the rationale behind the donations, it isn’t sharing it with the media.

The obvious deficiencies in the ATSB report led in turn to a damning all-party Senate committee inquiry, which, among other things, expressed a lack of confidence in the testimony provided to it by the chief commissioner of the ATSB, Martin Dolan.

Both the former Labor minister responsible for transport, Anthony Albanese, and the current missing-in-action minister, Warren Truss, treated the senators with total contempt, refusing to engage in any meaningful way with their concerns, and in the case of Truss, relying on an anodyne nothing-to-see-here response from his own department.

But after Truss ordered the reopening of the Pel-Air inquiry — something he had to do given the incisive criticism of the ATSB by the board’s Canadian counterparts — the ATSB defied him by continuing to display its discredited Pel-Air report on its website.

Worse than that, Truss appears to have drifted off into la-la land by allowing the ATSB to appoint one of its own, Dr Michael Walker, to lead the investigation into its own fiercely denied errors.

The perils of this shabby approach would be obvious to someone who is on the ball.

The minister has also failed to carry out his personal commitment to appoint an additional commissioner with technical aviation experience to the ATSB, or to act on the Senate’s findings against the conduct and integrity of its chief commissioner.

A vague minister and an embarrassing and deeply flawed air accident report. What could possibly go wrong for Australia’s reputation in air safety governance with a combination like this?

To pissed off to comment...

Ps Pinky kind of fits with my previous post (careful don't tell anyone but I had two posts in a row): http://www.pprune.org/8835052-post640.html