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OzRunways 2.whoa!

Old 2nd Apr 2013, 22:01
  #721 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: YMEN
Posts: 260
Originally Posted by Homesick-Angel View Post
I've had some issues with the w+b. I tried to set one up that I've successfully done elsewhere( in a w+b program- I used all the same figures), but the area inside the box doesn't change at all, and no matter what I change it won't give me the actual figures..

I've probably done something wrong, but I tried setting up new aircraft from scratch, and still no good?
Having the same problem Angel, but if I use a default one (ie 172) and don't change any of the figures (including leaving it in Lbs) it works fine.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 02:30
  #722 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 30
Seems ok, but still lacking in few areas that avplan has covered - feel free to correct me if I am wrong!

IFR route planning - automatic insertion of IFR routes, LSALT etc

Plan shown on screen as you fly with updated ETAs etc

Radar overlay

Weight and balance no max weights for stations, no default weights for stations, not sure how to set up fuel stations?, fuel stations with moving arms not catered for, arm units in cm not mm

Avplan automatically puts info from plan into w+b and flight plan submission ie. fuel on board and fuel burns, POB

No pax manifest?

Still no integrated flight plan submission - have to export to NAIPS?

Cannot set up aircraft details such as extra equipment, fuel weight, pilot details

Can you copy aircraft types? can they be shared?

Can you print ersa, dap, w+b from the app?

Can you view, print and save forecasts within the app?

Thats it for now after a quick look, also have had a few crashes while setting up aircraft.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 08:59
  #723 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hollister, Hilo, Pago Pago, Norfolk Is., Brisbane, depending which day of the week it is...
Age: 47
Posts: 1,317
So, to review, even though the regulations do not specifically state that you cannot use an EFB smaller than A5, the CAAP's recommend that you do not. And if you get ramp checked you can argue until you are blue in the face pointing out CAR233 but it won't stop you getting pinged because their word (recommendation/opinion/belief etc.) is final.
I asked a CASA officer today specifically with reference to "recommendations" and was informed if you are carrying paper maps etc and using the ipad mini as a backup, fill yer boots, but if you are using it as primary means and have anything smaller than A5 (ie. a normal ("maxi"?) ipad), they have been directed to issue infringements.

I had a look at the iPad Mini on the weekend, and given the Mini appears to be recommended by the Ozrunways people and acceptable to CASA, it seems the best option.
Ahhh, don't think so....

(Also keep away from non engineering approved fixed mounts (eg suction), I don't mind the ASA kneeboard product myself.)

Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 3rd Apr 2013 at 11:17. Reason: People would rather debate millimetres.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 09:08
  #724 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Further away
Posts: 853
Well if casa staff have made the statement that anything less than A5 is an infringement and they have been directed as such by superiors then they should reword the CAAP to confirm same
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 09:35
  #725 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 0A
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No, a CAAP shows acceptable means of compliance with a reg (for AOC holders...), in this case, CAO 82. It is not the reg itself.

Let's face it, CAR 233 was written when Yoda was a young lad and needs to be updated to include the use of ipads and the like for non-AOC ops.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 10:13
  #726 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bathurst NSW AUS
Posts: 76
Guess we have a real problem here then. A5 is 210 x 148. A standard iPad is smaller, let alone a mini.

So does an iPad meet CAR233 or the CAAP, and how did the OzRunways boys get approval if the device doesn't meet the specs?

To the letter of the law then the iPad can still be only a backup device (even if it qualifies as an authoritative data source) and you still have to carry all the paperwork.

I'd love a definitive ruling here as this seems to me to be getting rather silly.

From my understanding the CAO refers to AOC holders and recommended to everybody else, but I'm not the expert.

Does anybody really know?
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 10:32
  #727 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
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A5 is 210 x 148. A standard iPad is smaller
Given the ipad was the thing that has set this whole issue off, I hardly think CASA is going to ban use of them. The screen ipad is 197mm high, is it not? Given there's at least a bit of white space around each page, a page will fit on an ipad screen OK. Obviously an ipad mini would be stretching the friendship and a ruling would need to be made about that. Sounds fair though if it's a backup only.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 10:55
  #728 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bathurst NSW AUS
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While I agree with you, if CASA have been 'directed to issue an infringement for anything less than A5', and they wish to persue 'the letter of the law' where do we really stand?

If a vexatious CASA officer gets out his measuring device, an iPad ain't A5. (Of course this never happens!)

The CAR and CAAP don't give approval to any particular device.

Last edited by garrya100; 3rd Apr 2013 at 11:02.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 11:35
  #729 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Posts: 1,317
From my understanding the CAO refers to AOC holders and recommended to everybody else, but I'm not the expert.
No no no no no no no no no.......

You are bound by everything in the CAR, CASR, CAO, and AIP, regardless of whether you are flying under an AOC, hold a PPL, and RA cert or fly balloons. Each CAO will define what type of op is covered in it's applicability or title, eg.
CAO 48.0
1 APPLICATION AND RESPONSIBILITY
1.1 These Orders shall apply to aerial work, charter and regular public transport service operations unless otherwise stated.
1.3 The holder of a pilot licence other than a private pilot licence who engages in aerial work, charter, or regular public transport operations, shall be subject to the flight and duty time limitations specified by CASA in section 48.1 of this Part. Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations.
This includes commonly neglected areas such as CASR Part 92 Dangerous Goods (ie. carrying a jerry can of extra fuel on the front seat of the robbie, the Reg says All Australian Aircraft, not just commercial ones), CAR 256A Carriage of Animals (Rover cannot be carried in the back seat of the C172 without CASA approval) and CAR 143 Carriage of Firearms (you cannot transport your own firearm on a private flight without permission from CASA).

Ignore at your own risk when ramped.
Same as with the ipads. Normal size is ok, mini ain't. This was directly from a CASA officer and I did stress the mini vs normal debate and "recommendation" issues being raised here.
Not my sandpit, I just play in it.

Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 3rd Apr 2013 at 22:09.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 12:20
  #730 (permalink)  
 
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MIHC, at the risk of creating severe thread drift, from your quotes, CAO 48 does not apply to a private operation. The DGs regs (and carrying guns for shooting drones) do apply because, as per your post, "the Reg says All Australian Aircraft, not just commercial ones".

Back on topic, CAR 233 does apply to private ops. CAO 82 (and all the new bits and pieces concerning EFBs) does not apply to private ops as far as I can see.

The issue is the relevance of the EFB conditions imposed on AOC operations to purely private operations trying to comply with CAR 233. Ironically, CAR 233 is not mentioned once in the CAAP, except for a bit about databases.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 14:06
  #731 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
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Paper Jepp charts are smaller than A5 - not much, but smaller because they are half US letter size. I suspect the A5 enforcement thing is a made up rule and would not sustain challenge.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 14:08
  #732 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
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For IFR I still like Jepp FD best. Ozrunways is a nice thing to show where you are on a coloured map.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 22:06
  #733 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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MIHC, at the risk of creating severe thread drift, from your quotes, CAO 48 does not apply to a private operation. The DGs regs (and carrying guns for shooting drones) do apply because, as per your post, "the Reg says All Australian Aircraft, not just commercial ones".
Now go back and read the context of the quoted text. I was demonstrating where it says a CAO would not apply to a PVT operation.

Each CAO will define what type of op is covered in it's applicability or title, eg.
And 48 does apply if you also engage in AWK, CHTR or RPT.

Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 3rd Apr 2013 at 22:12.
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Old 3rd Apr 2013, 22:48
  #734 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bathurst NSW AUS
Posts: 76
Right... done my own research...

CAAP 223 states that it is applicable to AOC holders (3.2) and general guidance for private ops

CAO 82 is regs for AOC holders, doesnt apply to private ops.

CAO 100.7 is weight and balance, include your iPad in your weight calcs.

REG138 is to comply with AFM, no iPad reference in mine

REG139 is carry documents, iPad is now an authorative source

REG215 is flight ops manual for AOC holders, doesn't apply to private ops

REG232 is flight check system, you may have to include your iPad on your check list, or have a check list for your iPad (wise any way to make sure it's current and works!!)

PAR 233 does apply, the iPad is an authorative source, good idea to carry a backup, paper or electronic.

REG 235 applies, but nothing about EFBs, but does refer to W&B (iPad good enough?)

REG232A applies to an iPad (or any other computer) permanently fitted to an aircraft, but mines portable. If yours is fixed this may apply.

CAO 48 applies, 48.1 includes private ops in duty time requirements for commercial. (no duty time for private opertations)

I haven't yet found anything that dictates any size or any types of device, can anybody point me to an appropriate CAR, CAAP or CAO that does for private ops, I'm still looking. (please no more hearsay, I'm confused enough!!)

Last edited by garrya100; 4th Apr 2013 at 05:12. Reason: more typos!!
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Old 4th Apr 2013, 02:47
  #735 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
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Regulatory Reform eh?

Haven't CASA's OLC created a nice little empire (earner) for themselves
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Old 4th Apr 2013, 10:23
  #736 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,057
Thanks garrya100.
My iPad and IPhone now each have a copy of my own guide to being rampchecked including details of regulatory requirements for stuff I need to have with me in flight plus a marked up copy of CAAP 233-1 with lines through stuff applicable only to AOCs and lines thru stuff which is only guidance (i.e. requirements only remaining) - represents the minimum so if I have that there can be no infringement.

Incidentally, that reg about complying with the AFM would apply to the loading system so if the OzRunways system is different for W&B then that is an infringement.
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Old 4th Apr 2013, 11:44
  #737 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 634
I have been informed that the only way to use any W&B app is if it has either been factory approved for your specific aircraft, or set up, validated and signed off by a CASA approved weight authority.

There really isn't anything we could do to make it approved for anyone!
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Old 4th Apr 2013, 20:46
  #738 (permalink)  
Wan
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 17
djpil - would you mind sharing your "guide"? Of course its all written in plain english in the regs / act etc ... but it takes a while to read them all. For eg, I can't recall if you need to carry a certificate of airworthiness, or just an MR will do, and haven't had to fortitude to turn to the legislation.

Going from memory, this is what I think:

Licence and medical
MR
Flight Manual
Charts
Flight Plan with Fuel Log and calcs
Pax / cargo / DG manifest (as required)
Weight & Balance calcs

What else?

Last edited by Wan; 4th Apr 2013 at 20:48. Reason: Sorry - not really an ozrunways issue.
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Old 4th Apr 2013, 21:22
  #739 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 62
Posts: 304
I know one very experienced charter pilot who got busted on a ramp check (Chieftain at Emerald) for not carrying a protractor and his licence (although he had a photocopy of his licence)...
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Old 5th Apr 2013, 02:29
  #740 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 282
An airline recently lost my baggage which contained my license (first lesson...), I then rang CASA explaining the situation (I was supposed to fly the next day). They said that a photocopy wouldn't satisfy the regs, but they could fax me a copy..... I didn't fly.
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