OzRunways 2.whoa!
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,440
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From: dunnunda
As I understand it, one's subscription covers 1 x iPad plus 1 x iPhone.
I think it'd be great if it could cover two installations on the user's choice of devices. I never use the iPhone version but would like to use the licence on a backup iPad mini.
I think it'd be great if it could cover two installations on the user's choice of devices. I never use the iPhone version but would like to use the licence on a backup iPad mini.
Nunc est bibendum
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,596
Likes: 37
From: Sydney, Australia
I never use the iPhone version but would like to use the licence on a backup iPad mini.
Last edited by Keg; 5th March 2013 at 22:07.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 924
Likes: 1
From: Australia
I too would prefer the second unit I can put it on were the mini, which I do not yet have, but will get in the near future.
Reason is different cockpit suits mini, compared to side by side cockpit for the "maxi".
John
Reason is different cockpit suits mini, compared to side by side cockpit for the "maxi".
John
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
From: 'Stralia!
Correct me if I'm wrong...
Confirming this means paper maps not needed for VFR private flyers?
It just says "Pilot in Command".
So I would assume, yes, No more stupid paper!
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 233
Responsibility of pilot in command before flight
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft must not commence a flight if he or she has not received evidence, and taken such action as is necessary to ensure, that:
(a) the instruments and equipment required for the particular type of operation to be undertaken are installed in the aircraft and are functioning properly;
(b) the gross weight of the aircraft does not exceed the limitations fixed by or under regulation 235 and is such that flight performance in accordance with the standards specified by CASA for the type of operation to be undertaken is possible under the prevailing conditions; and
(c) any directions of CASA with respect to the loading of the aircraft given under regulation 235 have been complied with;
(d) the fuel supplies are sufficient for the particular flight;
(e) the required operating and other crew members are on board and in a fit state to perform their duties;
(f) the air traffic control instructions have been complied with;
(g) the aircraft is safe for flight in all respects; and
(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable:
(i) to the route to be flown; and
(ii) to any alternative route that may be flown on that flight;
are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the flight crew.
Responsibility of pilot in command before flight
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft must not commence a flight if he or she has not received evidence, and taken such action as is necessary to ensure, that:
(a) the instruments and equipment required for the particular type of operation to be undertaken are installed in the aircraft and are functioning properly;
(b) the gross weight of the aircraft does not exceed the limitations fixed by or under regulation 235 and is such that flight performance in accordance with the standards specified by CASA for the type of operation to be undertaken is possible under the prevailing conditions; and
(c) any directions of CASA with respect to the loading of the aircraft given under regulation 235 have been complied with;
(d) the fuel supplies are sufficient for the particular flight;
(e) the required operating and other crew members are on board and in a fit state to perform their duties;
(f) the air traffic control instructions have been complied with;
(g) the aircraft is safe for flight in all respects; and
(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable:
(i) to the route to be flown; and
(ii) to any alternative route that may be flown on that flight;
are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the flight crew.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The e-mail I received didn't differentiate between IFR or VFR and CAR 233(1)(h) doesn't make any differentiation either.
So since you can get DAPs, ERCs and TACs on OzRunways does this mean you can use it as an alternative to paper charts and documents for an IFR charter flight?
So since you can get DAPs, ERCs and TACs on OzRunways does this mean you can use it as an alternative to paper charts and documents for an IFR charter flight?
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 477
Likes: 2
From: Australia
We at AvPlan congratulate the OzR folks for getting through the approval process before we did.
One thing they did not mention in their announcement email is the CASA guidelines for EFB use (CAAP 233) This applies to private operations (Commercial ones are governed by your companies operations manual).
The most important thing in my view is carry a backup. Please carry a backup. Please. This could be two iPad's (and there are guidelines on the minimum size in that document). This can be paper maps and ERSA for the route to be flown.
All it will take is one incident where the device failed and the pilot had no backup and then expect to have more regulatory oversight, which will affect everybody.
Bevan..
One thing they did not mention in their announcement email is the CASA guidelines for EFB use (CAAP 233) This applies to private operations (Commercial ones are governed by your companies operations manual).
The most important thing in my view is carry a backup. Please carry a backup. Please. This could be two iPad's (and there are guidelines on the minimum size in that document). This can be paper maps and ERSA for the route to be flown.
All it will take is one incident where the device failed and the pilot had no backup and then expect to have more regulatory oversight, which will affect everybody.
Bevan..
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 471
Likes: 23
From: Adelaide
Bevan absolutely correct about staying safe people.
To answer some questions, my understanding is:
CAR233 applies to everybody. Basically, it means OzRunways is now an approved source of the equivalent paper. You may (like me) want to carry an extra device and/or a print-out too. Doesn't specify size of device required.
CAO 82.0 Appendix9 are the new rules that apply to AOC holders, but also recommended reading for Private pilots to stay safe. They mandate 2 devices in cockpit, a company EFB administrator, min device size, etc. CASA Summarise this in an easy to read CAAP.
Please direct all questions to CASA who are the subject matter experts on this. They have a FAQ here:
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Electronic Flight Bag (EFB)
To answer some questions, my understanding is:
CAR233 applies to everybody. Basically, it means OzRunways is now an approved source of the equivalent paper. You may (like me) want to carry an extra device and/or a print-out too. Doesn't specify size of device required.
CAO 82.0 Appendix9 are the new rules that apply to AOC holders, but also recommended reading for Private pilots to stay safe. They mandate 2 devices in cockpit, a company EFB administrator, min device size, etc. CASA Summarise this in an easy to read CAAP.
Please direct all questions to CASA who are the subject matter experts on this. They have a FAQ here:
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Electronic Flight Bag (EFB)
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 471
Likes: 23
From: Adelaide
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 717
Likes: 3
From: YMMB
One question I've got is what size iPad to use?
I notice that the OzRunways people seem to recommend the iPad mini, but the mini screen size appears to be smaller than the A5 size for an EFB specified by CASA.
Regarding power, the easiest approach is to fit an automotive-style cigarette lighter style socket to the panel of your plane. A company in the USA even makes a cigarette lighter style socket that has TSO documentation.
On eBay you can buy a cigarette lighter plug has has one or two USB sockets on it. Most of these USB plugs will convert the 12 or 24 volts from the plane to 5 volts for USB.
I notice that the OzRunways people seem to recommend the iPad mini, but the mini screen size appears to be smaller than the A5 size for an EFB specified by CASA.
Regarding power, the easiest approach is to fit an automotive-style cigarette lighter style socket to the panel of your plane. A company in the USA even makes a cigarette lighter style socket that has TSO documentation.
On eBay you can buy a cigarette lighter plug has has one or two USB sockets on it. Most of these USB plugs will convert the 12 or 24 volts from the plane to 5 volts for USB.
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 717
Likes: 3
From: YMMB
It appears the A5 screen size for an EFB by CASA is a "recommendation".
Probably just means that OzRunways just need to clarify qualify what is required to meet the requirements to use their software and an iPad instead of papter maps.
"battery boosters" are additional batteries that plug into your device to extend the power charge. They are cheap insurance against flat batteries in flight and I always carry a couple of fully charged one in my nav bag.
Probably just means that OzRunways just need to clarify qualify what is required to meet the requirements to use their software and an iPad instead of papter maps.
"battery boosters" are additional batteries that plug into your device to extend the power charge. They are cheap insurance against flat batteries in flight and I always carry a couple of fully charged one in my nav bag.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
From: Perth, Australia
It's against OzRunways commercial interests to admit to their customers with iPad mini's that it doesn't meet ICAO requirements....can't blame them.
All this "OzRunways CASA approved" talk now could lead them to a law suit, if someone with a mini gets done in court.
All this "OzRunways CASA approved" talk now could lead them to a law suit, if someone with a mini gets done in court.
I've had this argument with a few people, don't let that pretty image on casas website with the tick and crosses fool you, that isn't a law. CAO 82.0 says:
it uses a screen which displays data in a size and form that is at least as easily read and used as it would be in a paper document for which the EFB would be a substitute;
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 334
Likes: 5
From: AMONGST BRIGALOW SUCKERS
This is great news, and Kudo's to CASA and Ozr for implementing this.
I believe that this marks the largest step foward in enhanced aviation safety since the common availability of GPS.
Well done.
I believe that this marks the largest step foward in enhanced aviation safety since the common availability of GPS.
Well done.
Last edited by BEACH KING; 28th March 2013 at 01:50.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 471
Likes: 23
From: Adelaide
The actual legislation:CAO 82.0 Appendix9:
From CAAP 233-1(0):
From CASA's website on EFB's:
And this regarding CAAP's from the CASA website:
11.1 If the pilot in command of an aircraft operated under an AOC uses an EFB as a
means of complying, or partially complying, with paragraph 233 (1) (h) of
CAR 1988, each certificate authorising operations under the AOC is subject to
the condition that the AOC holder must comply with, and ensure flight crew
compliance with, the applicable requirements in Appendix 9.
means of complying, or partially complying, with paragraph 233 (1) (h) of
CAR 1988, each certificate authorising operations under the AOC is subject to
the condition that the AOC holder must comply with, and ensure flight crew
compliance with, the applicable requirements in Appendix 9.
(c) it uses a screen which displays data in a size and form that is at least as
easily read and used as it would be in a paper document for which the EFB
would be a substitute;
easily read and used as it would be in a paper document for which the EFB
would be a substitute;
3.2 This CAAP looks to provide guidance for the use of EFB by Air Operator’s Certificate (AOC) holders as they are bound to meet the obligations detailed in the AOC conditions set out in Appendix 9 of CAO 82.0. These AOC conditions will be applicable to foreign registered operators as detailed in Paragraph 10 of CAO 82.3 and Paragraph 10 of CAO 82.5. It will cover areas such as hardware, software, administration, maintenance, security and the operational approvals for the AOC holder. The CAAP will also provide general guidance for private operators.
Screen Size
7.5 The screen size and resolution will need to demonstrate the ability to display information in a manner comparable to the paper aeronautical charts and data it is intended to replace. The recommended minimum size of the screen is A5 (see ICAO Annex 4). If the intent of the installation is to display charts and maps, the device should be suitably sized to display the image without excessive scrolling.
7.5 The screen size and resolution will need to demonstrate the ability to display information in a manner comparable to the paper aeronautical charts and data it is intended to replace. The recommended minimum size of the screen is A5 (see ICAO Annex 4). If the intent of the installation is to display charts and maps, the device should be suitably sized to display the image without excessive scrolling.
And this regarding CAAP's from the CASA website:
Civil Aviation Advisory Publications (CAAPs) provide guidance and information in a designated subject area, or show a method acceptable to an authorised person or CASA for complying with a related Civil Aviation Regulation. CAAPs should always be read in conjunction with the referenced regulations.
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: Goolwa
So, to review, even though the regulations do not specifically state that you cannot use an EFB smaller than A5, the CAAP's recommend that you do not. And if you get ramp checked you can argue until you are blue in the face pointing out CAR233 but it won't stop you getting pinged because their word (recommendation/opinion/belief etc.) is final.