Williamtown Procedures
Thread Starter
WILLY Does not use mosiac so target res can be used.
As Chairman of CAA I arranged for our Controllers to go to the USA and work in the sytem there.
Many came back with suggestions on how improvements could be made here but others stopped any change.
As Chairman of CAA I arranged for our Controllers to go to the USA and work in the sytem there.
Many came back with suggestions on how improvements could be made here but others stopped any change.
Thread Starter
Scran
I will say it once again as I have many times on this thread. I am not blaming the workface military controllers – I find them as good as any in the world.
What I am blaming are the procedures they have to operate to.
You may be surprised that the operations at Oshkosh fully comply with the FAA regulations for that airspace.
Whilst I appreciate your comments in relation to Williamtown in ’86 when the Hornet came to Australia, wouldn’t it be great if the controllers could have used approved procedures and their own judgement and not be breaking the rules? That is what I would prefer.
I’m not trying to change the system by shaming the controller. Certainly I am giving a strong message to the military that the reason they are having problems in attracting recruits is that they don’t move forward with the times and ask the best advice.
On another tack, why don’t we have nuclear submarines? To me, puttering around in a diesel submarine meaning you have to come up for air every few days and then be radar-identified seems far worse than being in a nuclear machine.
Yes, you will tell me it’s for political reasons that we don’t go nuclear – and that’s pretty right – except that if there was good leadership in the military hierarchy they would be able to communicate to the public the necessity that if we are going to have a submarine fleet at all, at least some of our subs should be nuclear.
I understand from an expert submariner that we can buy one of the proven British models for not a huge difference in the planned price of the new diesel subs.
Your post shows me that there is some good initiative – or there was in ’86 in the military. What has happened today, then? Why doesn’t a military person come on to this thread and say, Dick, we are going to look at everything overseas. We have open minds. If there is a way of doing things better with high levels of safety, we will definitely be doing that.
By the way, Airservices did look at target resolution, but because their radars are multi-radar tracking they said this was ruled out.
Of course, if the military in some locations have displays which are not multi-radar tracked, there is a chance of using target resolution.
I will say it once again as I have many times on this thread. I am not blaming the workface military controllers – I find them as good as any in the world.
What I am blaming are the procedures they have to operate to.
You may be surprised that the operations at Oshkosh fully comply with the FAA regulations for that airspace.
Whilst I appreciate your comments in relation to Williamtown in ’86 when the Hornet came to Australia, wouldn’t it be great if the controllers could have used approved procedures and their own judgement and not be breaking the rules? That is what I would prefer.
I’m not trying to change the system by shaming the controller. Certainly I am giving a strong message to the military that the reason they are having problems in attracting recruits is that they don’t move forward with the times and ask the best advice.
On another tack, why don’t we have nuclear submarines? To me, puttering around in a diesel submarine meaning you have to come up for air every few days and then be radar-identified seems far worse than being in a nuclear machine.
Yes, you will tell me it’s for political reasons that we don’t go nuclear – and that’s pretty right – except that if there was good leadership in the military hierarchy they would be able to communicate to the public the necessity that if we are going to have a submarine fleet at all, at least some of our subs should be nuclear.
I understand from an expert submariner that we can buy one of the proven British models for not a huge difference in the planned price of the new diesel subs.
Your post shows me that there is some good initiative – or there was in ’86 in the military. What has happened today, then? Why doesn’t a military person come on to this thread and say, Dick, we are going to look at everything overseas. We have open minds. If there is a way of doing things better with high levels of safety, we will definitely be doing that.
By the way, Airservices did look at target resolution, but because their radars are multi-radar tracking they said this was ruled out.
Of course, if the military in some locations have displays which are not multi-radar tracked, there is a chance of using target resolution.
It has everything to do with the issue. The requirements you posted for target resolution are only applicable to analogue radar systems. As I said we have to play by the rules & the rules say analogue only 
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Did you ever hear about the fly-in to Willy in late '86 to welcome the Hornet into Australian service? Did you ever hear how that there was so much light aircraft traffic trying to get into Willy that the tower controller on the day didn't use callsigns, providing landing clearances to aircraft based on their type and colour, used non-standard runway separation standards and non approved patter/RT Phraseology, all in an attempt to "get the job done"? Did you Dick? Ask around about it.
The Senior ATC Officer at Williamtown was in the tower that morning, and instead of relieving the controller of his ratings, allowed the situation to happen, as it was the only way the amount of traffic around was going to be processed. In fact, he nominated that controller for a commendation from the very military leadership who should have been aghast!!!
The Senior ATC Officer at Williamtown was in the tower that morning, and instead of relieving the controller of his ratings, allowed the situation to happen, as it was the only way the amount of traffic around was going to be processed. In fact, he nominated that controller for a commendation from the very military leadership who should have been aghast!!!
...........and that is how it is done at Oshkosh each year.....mind you they are well practised at it of course. But you can be sure that is not what happens down the road at Maddison or Chicargo 
Last edited by Jabawocky; 25th Jan 2011 at 05:52. Reason: typo...well at least one I spotted anyway!
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However, I understand the Williamtown approach does not use mosaic or multi-radar tracking for aircraft that are flying close to the airfield.
Who cares _ it's got nothing to do with the issue.
We will give our controllers procedures and responsibilities that will allow them to use their professionalism and experience to the greatest extent.
It is clear that your knowledge of ATC is lacking and predominantly based on what you hear from the cabin of your aircraft. That is akin to me judging your ability to fly an aircraft based solely on the time that you have been transiting the airspace that I control. Am I right to assume that you are condoning this practice of 'limited understanding' along with your 'name calling', circular arguments and lack of evidence as perfectly valid reasons for arguing?
anonymous cowards
The only reason posters don’t put their names to their posts on such basic issues as airspace procedures is they don’t really believe in what they are saying and they don’t want to have a system where something could be attributed to them
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Ah, now this thread is more like it. For a moment I thought Dick was making sense but he has been shot down with facts and he doesn't like it.
What does he do ?
He slips into closed minds mode;
tells radar controllers they don't know anything about the systems they use;
continues to insist the Military should do things differently based on what he has reportedly heard;
back pedals on earlier comments stating "Defence personnel deserve low morale";and
(this one takes the cake), some how, he diverted the thread onto NUCLEAR SUBMARINES !
Perhaps the Navy can park one off Stockton Beach and shoot down those annoying aircraft that cause your delays.
What does he do ?
He slips into closed minds mode;
tells radar controllers they don't know anything about the systems they use;
continues to insist the Military should do things differently based on what he has reportedly heard;
back pedals on earlier comments stating "Defence personnel deserve low morale";and
(this one takes the cake), some how, he diverted the thread onto NUCLEAR SUBMARINES !
Perhaps the Navy can park one off Stockton Beach and shoot down those annoying aircraft that cause your delays.
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you talk about others with a closed mind Disk
Who cares _ it's got nothing to do with the issue
If your aircraft was correlated and displayed on the screen, it would have a blob containing the primary marker (blob) and the beacon slash (orientated perpendicular to an imaginary line drawn towards the radar head). Another aircraft also in the area would be displayed the same way.
If the relative width of the beacon slash was ... oh I don't know, say and average of 3nm close in to the field .... how far between aircraft positions (centre to centre) would Target Resolution bring them?
1.5 + 1.5 = 3nm .... Ah ha
Jump forward to modern day, Digital with small circular symbols on the controllers screen which are the same size (visually) no matter which screen scale is selected.
Also, let's asume the next election has been and gone .. beforehand, you had taken out paper adverts, got your face on telly and radio thanks to the blinky eyed uninformed media, and, dills like MRabbott and The Albo had said to you:-
"yes Disk, we will fix it for you (gobble gobble)"
And voila 'Target Resolution' is all systems go!
The normal screen range will have edge to edge a lot closer than the separation minima. If the controller zooms in to say 15nm range ... if target resolution was used with these systems, at a small scale setting, the aircraft could be as close as 500m apart.
Do you see the relevance???
As le Pingouin and others (including AsA and the FAA) have pointed out, this is why Target Resolution cannot and is not used with digital systems.
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the aircraft could be as close as 500m apart.
If I'm down the back in seat 44A, 3 miles from a Cirrus, Lancair or (gulp) VLJ is close enough thanks!
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Dizzy .. yep, and I reckon he (and/or his erstwhile retired side kick) has known all along that Target Res' was never used for this purpose in Class C or B
Yup!, and I don't reckon you'd be Robinson Crusoe 
.. yep, and I reckon he (and/or his erstwhile retired side kick) has known all along that Target Res' was never used for this purpose in Class C or B
If I'm down the back in seat 44A, 3 miles from a Cirrus, Lancair or (gulp) VLJ is close enough thanks!
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I am not blaming the workface military controllers
The ONLY reason you get to post here in your own name Dick, is that you are independently wealthy and will not get the sack or reprimanded for participating.
On another tack, why don’t we have nuclear submarines? To me, puttering around in a diesel submarine meaning you have to come up for air every few days and then be radar-identified seems far worse than being in a nuclear machine.
I understand from an expert submariner that we can buy one of the proven British models for not a huge difference in the planned price of the new diesel subs.
Hey Dick,
Reur
"Certainly I am giving a strong message to the military"......
ON THESE FORUMS...????
Pull the other one.....
And.....tks for the 'redundo'.........
Cheeers
Reur
"Certainly I am giving a strong message to the military"......
ON THESE FORUMS...????
Pull the other one.....
And.....tks for the 'redundo'.........
Cheeers
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It’s almost as if your air traffic control is some type of religious faith that comes from a “bible” which shall never be doubted or queried.
I, for one, dont want to get sent to prison for manslaughter just so Dick in his VFR A109 doesnt get held up for a short period.
Instead of bagging the controllers Dick, who have absolutely no say in the rules & regulations you should be concerned with the managers within CASA & AsA who do.
And as for your dummy spit about anonymous cowards & closed minds, that is low Dick, very very low (well below LSALT). As one of your friends pointed out, you were once voted Australian of the Year and beyond reproach (?!!?)
Im sure it wasnt for comments like that!
I for one am happy for anyone to know who I am, but others arent and thats purely because of the recriminations that can follow. Thats why this is an 'anonymous' forum...................
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By the way, Airservices did look at target resolution, but because their radars are multi-radar tracking they said this was ruled out.
Of course, if the military in some locations have displays which are not multi-radar tracked, there is a chance of using target resolution.
Of course, if the military in some locations have displays which are not multi-radar tracked, there is a chance of using target resolution.
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Sorry Dick, been away watching Jimmy Buffett fall of stage................
Dick - my final words:
Twice now you have been held at Willy, and come on here to make a big song and dance about it. Same as you did when you were stopped from going thru SY VFR in the Caravan (wasn't it?) a few years agaon and again came on here an complained.
According to you:
As I'm ex ATC - I don't like change
As I'm ex Military - I don't want change and am intransient
I don't agree with your methods of change - therefore I have a closed mind.
You think the US system is the be all and end all and want it here becasue it must be better than what we have.
As an aside, you don't seem to understand about Modern radar systems and their displays and the use of multi-tracking to cover blind spots etc.
You don't understand that giving the Tower at Williamtown airspace would NOT help (in the situation you describe - tower had a bunch of airspace, as on weekends you normally provide the whole lot from the Tower - or did when I was there).
Only one person on here has a closed mind - Dick........................
Dick - my final words:
Twice now you have been held at Willy, and come on here to make a big song and dance about it. Same as you did when you were stopped from going thru SY VFR in the Caravan (wasn't it?) a few years agaon and again came on here an complained.
According to you:
As I'm ex ATC - I don't like change
As I'm ex Military - I don't want change and am intransient
I don't agree with your methods of change - therefore I have a closed mind.
You think the US system is the be all and end all and want it here becasue it must be better than what we have.
As an aside, you don't seem to understand about Modern radar systems and their displays and the use of multi-tracking to cover blind spots etc.
You don't understand that giving the Tower at Williamtown airspace would NOT help (in the situation you describe - tower had a bunch of airspace, as on weekends you normally provide the whole lot from the Tower - or did when I was there).
Only one person on here has a closed mind - Dick........................