Williamtown Procedures
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Williamtown Procedures
Tried to fly up the Willy coastal lane today in the Agusta. First time in about 12 months. What a totally amateurish system. I have said in the past that the Controllers are as good as any in the world however their leadership is non existent. Still using 1950's procedures.
Cloud was 2800' scattered with 10km+ visibility. Visual approaches for 12 announced on the ATIS.
After calling at Nobbies at 500' I was given a clearance with a limit of Stockton bridge - then instructed to hold at the wreck. Soon after another VFR aircraft requested a clearance but was told to hold at Nobbies.
The problem? I think it was caused by an air ambulance aircraft on approach to 12.
In five flights around the world I have never experienced a similar situation other than in Australia-twice in fact. - once at Darwin and once at Williamtown.
In other countries the tower controls the airspace to the control boundary at low levels fo obvious reasons.
Or if you are in C in visual conditions under radar they use target resolution procedures.
But not in Australia. We managed to get Tower Airspace in at Canberra and it works really well but their has never ever been anyone in the Military ATC non decision makers to make a decision.
The military ATC 's are treated as if they are irresponsible children and not allowed to make judgements that ATC 's in other countries make dozens of time a day.No wonder they have difficulty in getting enough recruits here.
If I was in the Military I would have a really low morale as it's obvious that only the incompetents get into high positions. There is clearly no one with the leadership ability to make sure the coalface personal have the most modern and safest procedures.
It's the same level of competence that made the $1.2billion Super Seasprite stuff up
Cloud was 2800' scattered with 10km+ visibility. Visual approaches for 12 announced on the ATIS.
After calling at Nobbies at 500' I was given a clearance with a limit of Stockton bridge - then instructed to hold at the wreck. Soon after another VFR aircraft requested a clearance but was told to hold at Nobbies.
The problem? I think it was caused by an air ambulance aircraft on approach to 12.
In five flights around the world I have never experienced a similar situation other than in Australia-twice in fact. - once at Darwin and once at Williamtown.
In other countries the tower controls the airspace to the control boundary at low levels fo obvious reasons.
Or if you are in C in visual conditions under radar they use target resolution procedures.
But not in Australia. We managed to get Tower Airspace in at Canberra and it works really well but their has never ever been anyone in the Military ATC non decision makers to make a decision.
The military ATC 's are treated as if they are irresponsible children and not allowed to make judgements that ATC 's in other countries make dozens of time a day.No wonder they have difficulty in getting enough recruits here.
If I was in the Military I would have a really low morale as it's obvious that only the incompetents get into high positions. There is clearly no one with the leadership ability to make sure the coalface personal have the most modern and safest procedures.
It's the same level of competence that made the $1.2billion Super Seasprite stuff up
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Holding for priority traffic......more than justified I think.
I do agree that Willy, Townsville and Darwin are all as bad as each other though. Some of the worst and most inefficient procedures in place in all three airports.
The only airport with a worst record is Sydney, but thats an entirely different story....Speed up, slow down, turn left, turn right, change of runway...not into wind.. oops now speed up, sorry another change of runway, gee now slow down.. now hold... now max speed track shortening final change of runway, take first high speed and hold for 10 minutes.
I do agree that Willy, Townsville and Darwin are all as bad as each other though. Some of the worst and most inefficient procedures in place in all three airports.
The only airport with a worst record is Sydney, but thats an entirely different story....Speed up, slow down, turn left, turn right, change of runway...not into wind.. oops now speed up, sorry another change of runway, gee now slow down.. now hold... now max speed track shortening final change of runway, take first high speed and hold for 10 minutes.
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Give it a rest whingers. If it was at a CTAF then there would have been no problem, aircraft talking to aircraft. Throw in Willy ATC and two aircraft in the area becomes too hard.
Porch monkey and and fulla bull, you blokes had a hard day in the tower? Time for some Dick bashing is it?
Porch monkey and and fulla bull, you blokes had a hard day in the tower? Time for some Dick bashing is it?
Thread Starter
Come on you have to do better than that. The other aircraft was 4 miles away at the other side of the airport with fifty miles of visibility.
The two aircraft that were be held orbiting at low level over a rough ocean were not going anywhere near the airport. So do really believe they should be held for an aircraft that was? Why?
Shows you military blokes will do everything you can to resist change and never copy better proven procedures from others.
You deserve to have low morale. Remember that 1.2 billion dollars lost by your own peoples incompetence is one of the reasons you can't get proper pay - it all comes out of the military budget.
The two aircraft that were be held orbiting at low level over a rough ocean were not going anywhere near the airport. So do really believe they should be held for an aircraft that was? Why?
Shows you military blokes will do everything you can to resist change and never copy better proven procedures from others.
You deserve to have low morale. Remember that 1.2 billion dollars lost by your own peoples incompetence is one of the reasons you can't get proper pay - it all comes out of the military budget.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 13th Jan 2011 at 09:21.
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Military Controlling
How shrill the debate gets when Dick ventures an opinion!
As a Hunter Valley resident I suffer military ATC intransigence regularly. Just last week I had to pick my way up the "inland corridor" in marginal weather near Gloucester because, in VMC closer to the airport, Willy had "an aircraft on approach". My mate Mick Hutchins still rests somewhere in the Barringtons because Willy was "too busy" to let him down the coastal route, and a Mooney likewise as I recall. The USAF has less dedicated airspace than the RAAF has. Why we quietly suffer this outrageous military airspace grab I do not know. The Navy has great areas of airpace yet no fixed wing aircraft! It is only because our VMC traffic pressures are so miniscule that such inefficient controlling survives.
As a Hunter Valley resident I suffer military ATC intransigence regularly. Just last week I had to pick my way up the "inland corridor" in marginal weather near Gloucester because, in VMC closer to the airport, Willy had "an aircraft on approach". My mate Mick Hutchins still rests somewhere in the Barringtons because Willy was "too busy" to let him down the coastal route, and a Mooney likewise as I recall. The USAF has less dedicated airspace than the RAAF has. Why we quietly suffer this outrageous military airspace grab I do not know. The Navy has great areas of airpace yet no fixed wing aircraft! It is only because our VMC traffic pressures are so miniscule that such inefficient controlling survives.
Why is anyone surprised by this!
We say NO because we can. Maximum inconvenience for the maximum number of people.
It's the Australian way.....!
Ozbiggles... you live in a very insular world! Good luck!
We say NO because we can. Maximum inconvenience for the maximum number of people.
It's the Australian way.....!
Ozbiggles... you live in a very insular world! Good luck!
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Dick, you also have to remember that at the end of the day you are also listening to one frequency. You cant be sure as to what other traffic was around. I am guilty of bitching about the controller having no traffic on freq and having me hold, later to find out that another frequency/controller was working their butt off.
I will agree that in the 13 years of my flying into RAAF bases, the standard of controlling at RAAF airfields seems to be falling. It seems that - and this is only my view - as you pointed out, recruitment may be tough for the RAAF and they are now letting through the ATC school pretty much anyone that applies for an ATC job these days. This would explain some of the local procedures that seem a bit "unusual" (keeping it simple), as opposed to the standards that are uniform in any class C. For any RAAFIE reading this, you know that if you graduated more than 2 years ago, you truely deserved your wings to control....
Might i also add, everyone knows your callsigns, and if you keep posts like this going i cant see you getting a lot of help getting any track shortening.
I will agree that in the 13 years of my flying into RAAF bases, the standard of controlling at RAAF airfields seems to be falling. It seems that - and this is only my view - as you pointed out, recruitment may be tough for the RAAF and they are now letting through the ATC school pretty much anyone that applies for an ATC job these days. This would explain some of the local procedures that seem a bit "unusual" (keeping it simple), as opposed to the standards that are uniform in any class C. For any RAAFIE reading this, you know that if you graduated more than 2 years ago, you truely deserved your wings to control....
Might i also add, everyone knows your callsigns, and if you keep posts like this going i cant see you getting a lot of help getting any track shortening.
Thread Starter
World. You have missed the point. The controller was following the rules. He did offer direct tracking after the hold.
He is not allowed to use modern proven safe procedures because he reports to dopes.
He must know this but can do little other than resign- which the good ones obviously do.
I wonder just how many of those deaths overseas are caused by this type of terrible leadership - never ever ask or take advice. - we know everything.
And I am on the Controllers side- I say again I find our military controllers as good as any in the world. They are forced to work with unique rules that treat them as if they are stupid.
Are you suggesting that I should not tell the truth because controllers know my call sign?
Maybe you , but not me!
He is not allowed to use modern proven safe procedures because he reports to dopes.
He must know this but can do little other than resign- which the good ones obviously do.
I wonder just how many of those deaths overseas are caused by this type of terrible leadership - never ever ask or take advice. - we know everything.
And I am on the Controllers side- I say again I find our military controllers as good as any in the world. They are forced to work with unique rules that treat them as if they are stupid.
Are you suggesting that I should not tell the truth because controllers know my call sign?
Maybe you , but not me!
I have never tried to transit Willy, but I have been flying in and out of Townsville for 25 years. With a couple of exceptions, and particularly in the last 10 years, I have generally been well looked after by RAAF ATC at Townsville when both VFR and IFR.
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith
Shows you military blokes will do everything you can to resist change and never copy better proven procedures from others.
You deserve to have low morale. Remember that 1.2 billion dollars lost by your own peoples incompetence is one of the reasons you can't get proper pay - it all comes out of the military budget.
You deserve to have low morale. Remember that 1.2 billion dollars lost by your own peoples incompetence is one of the reasons you can't get proper pay - it all comes out of the military budget.
However I'm not so happy with what you've posted above. Not a good look, lashing out at the operators on the coalface of a less than perfect system. For what it's worth, I don't really like how GA is treated by Willy; but would you please avoid blaming the worker bees, telling them (us) that they (we) "deserve to have low morale"? There are plenty of reasons why SUBLTs, LTs, FLGOFFs etc have "low morale", but I'm not so sure that any of us deserve it due to our own failings.
Blame the system? Sure, blame the system, but don't blame some poor bloody PLTOFF or FLGOFF who has no say in how the system works.
{disclaimer - I'm not RAAF, and I'm not a controller}
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Sydney, but thats an entirely different story....Speed up, slow down, turn left, turn right, change of runway...not into wind.. oops now speed up, sorry another change of runway, gee now slow down.. now hold... now max speed track shortening final change of runway, take first high speed and hold for 10 minutes.
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no, LAX just keep you hot and high, then expect you to get in without a problem. Then you taxi on taxiways designed for C172's with cars and trucks driving right in front of you without giving way, pass a 747 with only 5m wingtip clearance, have 20 people all talking on the radio at the same time then you get sent to a standoff bay. Love LA!
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last week returning from Ballina, held at anna bay, at 500 ft, over ocean, for 45 mins, no probs getting through Coffs, but 45 mins at willy was frustrating especially when 12 is in use, getting through Nowra presented no problems either, and if your Not transponder equipped, they get you through in the most professional manner,
come to think of it, every time i have needed to transit wiliamtown, there has been a delay of at least 20 to 30 mins.
i know the lane to the west is there, but its not fun in a 15 to 20 kt noreaster, im not a fan of flying in rotor turb at 1000 or lower AGL
come to think of it, every time i have needed to transit wiliamtown, there has been a delay of at least 20 to 30 mins.
i know the lane to the west is there, but its not fun in a 15 to 20 kt noreaster, im not a fan of flying in rotor turb at 1000 or lower AGL
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Is there some reason you can't be tracked at 1500 over the top of the field?
Then you taxi on taxiways designed for C172's with cars and trucks driving right in front of you without giving way, pass a 747 with only 5m wingtip clearance, have 20 people all talking on the radio at the same time then you get sent to a standoff bay. Love LA!