Williamtown Procedures
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Boof
No doubt, Alaska is one of the more challenging environments on the planet.
http://www.asias.faa.gov/aviation_st...laskastudy.pdf
The data breakdown on page 31 of the link is instructive. Note the collision statistics - Midair - 20, 12 of which were fatal, one of which involved a Part 135 aircraft.
Do you think ADS-B and GNSS in Alaska was an FAA priority by happenstance?
No doubt, Alaska is one of the more challenging environments on the planet.
http://www.asias.faa.gov/aviation_st...laskastudy.pdf
The data breakdown on page 31 of the link is instructive. Note the collision statistics - Midair - 20, 12 of which were fatal, one of which involved a Part 135 aircraft.
Do you think ADS-B and GNSS in Alaska was an FAA priority by happenstance?
The US system is funded via the public purse.
Look a little deeper at the Aviation Trust Fund, and where the cash comes from, the airline passenger ticket tax, and a fuel tax for everybody else.
Yes, there is a measure of taxpayer funding, but that is far from the whole story.
Given that, at any hour of the day or night, there are 6000 IFR aircraft give or take, in the air over the US lower 48, controller sectors being smaller than Australia is a meaningless comparison.
Would somebody like to quote a number (even the peak will do, not a mean) of the number of IFR aircraft in Australia domestic FIRs --- to compare with the US.
As for the Williamtown "problem", "risk management" gone mad. The probability of the Ambo. trainer hitting an aircraft going down the VFR lane is so remote that it would be well below ALARP.
Somebody in the military brass should re-read the Common Risk Management Framework document, after all, they are signatories. If this agreement was adhered to, the Williamtown problems would evaporate ---- but don't hold your breath.
Why does Australia have such an obsession with mid-air collisions, when we have some of the world's lowest density airspace. When mod-air collisions don't even appear on the list of Australia's top air safety problems ---- and this is not because we are "so good" at CNS/ATM.
Tootle pip!!
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Lead
You highlight exactly the counter point/s (to your argument):-
Exactly what we have been pointing out, Australia does not have the same support mechanisms (we had similar before 1996). The two support systems are worlds (literally) apart in size and type.
No, it goes to highlight the difference. The comparison is valid in the context in which it is made i.e.
The US has a massive system, funded differently (far less real cost recovery at the GA end of the spectrum), and that massive system is scaled into smaller chunks of airspace with PSR, SSR, TRACON, number of controllers etc etc so the traffic, and airspace rules are manageable.
For the purpose of the Williamtown procedures discussion, the comparison being made goes to the size of airspace, screen scale used by App controllers at Williamtown verses the average US TRACON, and therefore the type and relative size of displayed aircraft symbols.
3NM can be 1 centimetre apart (larger scale) centre to centre, or 5 centimetres apart (smaller scale) centre to centre. Surely even you can see the comparison relevance!?!
Comparing Apples and Walnuts is meaningless without also comparing the different scale of airspace, equipment and the human organics operating it.
On that day, in the ‘reported’ circumstances (assuming nothing else was going on), I’d agree. But anyone with even the most basic risk management knowledge knows that it ain’t always going to be VMC, with only one IFR and VFR at any one time. As I said earlier, risk management MUST ensure that the worse case (known traffic scenarios and volumes) is catered for in the required thresholds, i.e meet ALARP. If you are saying the threshold rules at YWLM are NOT resonable because a VFR might cop a small delay every now and then (depending on the clearance requested), then I reckon you are pushing the preverbial bum mud up hill!
CASA set the rules!!!
Assuming you are mean that Mr Smith whining about a small delay is ‘a problem’. Are you suggesting the airspace should be another classification??
If so, could you cite a US example which is NOT class C, which moves as many RPT, fast jet military, IFR and VFR as Williamtown?
OK, I won’t
As well as some of the largest CTA/R volumes controlled by the least number of controllers … but then our safety record in CTA/R is pretty good (non-fatal) compared with the US (see the previous link) …. The problem is not CTA/R … it is OCTA. But feel free to waffle on about other things.
Insulting … considering our track record in CTA/R (with the exception of Class E). Someone once recently made the point that the US system is not the panacea, particularly given the amount of re-classification of D and E to C in recent years. There is only one reason for that …. The Incident and Accident data!!!!
Poodle Tip!!
You highlight exactly the counter point/s (to your argument):-
Look a little deeper at the Aviation Trust Fund, and where the cash comes from, the airline passenger ticket tax, and a fuel tax for everybody else.
Yes, there is a measure of taxpayer funding, but that is far from the whole story.
Yes, there is a measure of taxpayer funding, but that is far from the whole story.
Given that, at any hour of the day or night, there are 6000 IFR aircraft give or take, in the air over the US lower 48, controller sectors being smaller than Australia is a meaningless comparison.
The US has a massive system, funded differently (far less real cost recovery at the GA end of the spectrum), and that massive system is scaled into smaller chunks of airspace with PSR, SSR, TRACON, number of controllers etc etc so the traffic, and airspace rules are manageable.
For the purpose of the Williamtown procedures discussion, the comparison being made goes to the size of airspace, screen scale used by App controllers at Williamtown verses the average US TRACON, and therefore the type and relative size of displayed aircraft symbols.
3NM can be 1 centimetre apart (larger scale) centre to centre, or 5 centimetres apart (smaller scale) centre to centre. Surely even you can see the comparison relevance!?!
Would somebody like to quote a number (even the peak will do, not a mean) of the number of IFR aircraft in Australia domestic FIRs --- to compare with the US.
As for the Williamtown "problem", "risk management" gone mad. The probability of the Ambo. trainer hitting an aircraft going down the VFR lane is so remote that it would be well below ALARP.
Somebody in the military brass should re-read the Common Risk Management Framework document, after all, they are signatories.
If this agreement was adhered to, the Williamtown problems would evaporate
If so, could you cite a US example which is NOT class C, which moves as many RPT, fast jet military, IFR and VFR as Williamtown?
---- but don't hold your breath.
Why does Australia have such an obsession with mid-air collisions, when we have some of the world's lowest density airspace.
When mod-air collisions don't even appear on the list of Australia's top air safety problems ---- and this is not because we are "so good" at CNS/ATM.
Poodle Tip!!
Last edited by The Chaser; 22nd Jan 2011 at 16:12. Reason: Late night Typo
Why does Australia have such an obsession with mid-air collisions
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Binga .. check that fly ol' mate 
.... you bought one 
.... but I would never ever suggest you were obsessed 
... neeeeeewwwwww not AT ALL
Simple, we don't have an obsession. If we did, every Oz aircraft would by now have a TCAD
.... but I would never ever suggest you were obsessed ... neeeeeewwwwww not AT ALL
Binga .. check that fly ol' mate 
Quote:
Simple, we don't have an obsession. If we did, every Oz aircraft would by now have a TCAD
.... you bought one
.... but I would never ever suggest you were obsessed 
... neeeeeewwwwww not AT ALL
Quote:
Simple, we don't have an obsession. If we did, every Oz aircraft would by now have a TCAD
.... you bought one
.... but I would never ever suggest you were obsessed ... neeeeeewwwwww not AT ALL
The Chaser, apparently you now think i have an aircraft..
via ADS B and ATM,#239; have you managed to reach that RYAN invoice yet? ... it'd be in the MS FS 9/X folder 
... I'd reckon
... I'd reckon
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http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post6171510
aaaaand a few posts later
... well do ya own a RYAN equipped 'spam can' or not? .... or are you fibbing and it really is in the MS FS 9/X folder
as i've pointed out before, i've had a Ryan TCAD in my spam can for a while now (TCAD and TCAS and the like have been around for years) and i can see traffic out to twelve miles, and ah could 'see' further if i spent more money
my aircraft 'costs' folder is on the shelf behind me though i just caint lean far enuf over in my chair to reach it...maybe tommorow.
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Off-topic but I fly two airplanes that have TCAD and they only give a warning if I already can see the traffic. If I know the traffic is there but have not yet sighted it, the TCAD does not tell me about it. Pretty useless piece of equipment, that.
TCAS works well, if all the traffic has a transponder, but TCAD does not cut it.
Capstone is pretty good in radar coverage especially, but that is way too expensive for the average GA airplane.
Back on topic, there are plenty of examples in the US system that allow for GA airplanes to fly corridors or flight lanes around Class B or C airspace, with minimum delays and in many cases no communications air-to-ground. A 20 or 30 minute delay when it is not required for safety reasons could lead to a fuel shortage or unnecessary rush, and could encourage some pilots to turn off the transponder and sneak through, leading to a greater chance of midair. The usual Class C only goes 5 miles at the surface, so mostly it is avoidable.
Take a look at this and see the LAX Special Flight Rules Area for an example.
ChartView by MyAirplane.com
TCAS works well, if all the traffic has a transponder, but TCAD does not cut it.
Capstone is pretty good in radar coverage especially, but that is way too expensive for the average GA airplane.
Back on topic, there are plenty of examples in the US system that allow for GA airplanes to fly corridors or flight lanes around Class B or C airspace, with minimum delays and in many cases no communications air-to-ground. A 20 or 30 minute delay when it is not required for safety reasons could lead to a fuel shortage or unnecessary rush, and could encourage some pilots to turn off the transponder and sneak through, leading to a greater chance of midair. The usual Class C only goes 5 miles at the surface, so mostly it is avoidable.
Take a look at this and see the LAX Special Flight Rules Area for an example.
ChartView by MyAirplane.com
Thread Starter
Boofhead, thanks but they just don't get it.
I am willingly to cover the cost of a Willy controller traveling to Anchorage to see how they operate ATC with IFR and VFR traffic.
Modern procedures are the way to do it.
But minds are closed here, they fear change!
I am willingly to cover the cost of a Willy controller traveling to Anchorage to see how they operate ATC with IFR and VFR traffic.
Modern procedures are the way to do it.
But minds are closed here, they fear change!
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Not closed Dick, but you can't change the system at the coal front. Like I said in a previous post, we work to rules (and for good reason) if you want them changed you need to go above our heads. I could go to Alaska and see lots of things that I think are a good idea and would like to use but it matters a rats clacker if I'm not allowed to use them.
I fly two airplanes that have TCAD and they only give a warning if I already can see the traffic. If I know the traffic is there but have not yet sighted it, the TCAD does not tell me about it. Pretty useless piece of equipment, that.
TCAS works well, if all the traffic has a transponder, but TCAD does not cut it.
TCAS works well, if all the traffic has a transponder, but TCAD does not cut it.
" Designed to be powerful yet easy on the budget, SkyWatch is the ideal traffic advisory system for general aviation, fixed-wing and helicopter applications. SkyWatch monitors the airspace around an aircraft and indicates where to look for nearby transponder-equipped aircraft that may pose a collision threat — providing the “big picture” in traffic awareness at a fraction of the cost of TCAS. After receiving replies to its Mode C type interrogations, the SkyWatch system computes the responding aircraft’s range, bearing, relative altitude and closure rate — predicting potential traffic conflicts within an eleven mile range. Aural traffic alerts are annunciated through the aircraft’s existing audio system, and visual targets are displayed using TCAS-like symbols..."
L-3 Communications -> Products & Services -> SkyWatch Collision Avoidance Systems
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Disk Smith,
It is a little rich to suggest we have closed minds when you are:-
We are in case you had not noticed!
ANC - Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport | SkyVector
Also, of particular note are the plate procedures at the bottom of the linked page
Also, the airspace and airport/s layout SkyVector: Flight Planning / Aeronautical Charts
How many Frequencies? How many ATC positions? etc etc … Anchorage ain’t a lot like YWLM for a whole host of reasons.
Trying to sell Apples by calling them Walnuts won’t work.
As far as the thread topic goes - Any update on your US friend using less than three miles between IFR and VFR in Class C?
No, change is constant, we fear stupidity! We have seen loads of that in Airspace Change Management the last 20 years
It is a little rich to suggest we have closed minds when you are:-
not into the technicalities of how it works
ANC - Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport | SkyVector
Airport Communications
D-ATIS: 118.4
ANCHORAGE TOWER: 118.3 257.8
ANCHORAGE GROUND: 121.9 338.25
ANCHORAGE APPROACH: 118.6(250-330 ABV 1500 FT) 118.6(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 119.1(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 119.1(331-045 2500 FT & BLO) 123.8(206-249 ALL ALTS) 126.4(046-205 ALL ALTS) 134.1 257.9(046-205 ALL ALTS) 257.9(206-249 ALL ALTS) 290.5(250-330 ABV 1500 FT) 290.5(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 363.2(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 363.2(331-045 2500 FT & BLO)
ANCHORAGE DEPARTURE: 118.6(250-330 ABV 1500 FT) 118.6(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 119.1(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 119.1(331-045 2500 FT & BLO) 123.8(206-249 ALL ALTS) 126.4(046-205 ALL ALTS) 257.9(046-205 ALL ALTS) 257.9(206-249 ALL ALTS) 290.5(250-330 ABV 1500 FT) 290.5(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 363.2(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 363.2(331-045 2500 FT & BLO)
CLEARANCE DELIVERY: 119.4 128.65 323.1
EMERG: 121.5 243.0
ANG OPS: 311.0
USB ANG OPS: 4897.5
CLASS C: 118.6(250-330 ABV 1500 FT) 119.1(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 119.1(331-045 2500 FT & BLO) 123.8(206-249 ALL ALTS) 126.4(046-205 ALL ALTS) 257.9(046-205 ALL ALTS) 257.9(206-249 ALL ALTS) 290.5(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 363.2(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 363.2(331-045 2500 FT & BLO)
CLASS C IC: 118.6(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 290.5(250-330 ABV 1500 FT)
RDR: 259.1X 271.3X 320.1X 324.3X 327.1X
ANG OPNS: 140.15
UNICOM: 122.950
ASOS at LHD (0.8 NE): 907-245-1618
ATIS at LHD (0.8 NE): 125.6
ASOS at MRI (5.0 NE): 907-272-0542
D-ATIS: 118.4
ANCHORAGE TOWER: 118.3 257.8
ANCHORAGE GROUND: 121.9 338.25
ANCHORAGE APPROACH: 118.6(250-330 ABV 1500 FT) 118.6(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 119.1(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 119.1(331-045 2500 FT & BLO) 123.8(206-249 ALL ALTS) 126.4(046-205 ALL ALTS) 134.1 257.9(046-205 ALL ALTS) 257.9(206-249 ALL ALTS) 290.5(250-330 ABV 1500 FT) 290.5(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 363.2(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 363.2(331-045 2500 FT & BLO)
ANCHORAGE DEPARTURE: 118.6(250-330 ABV 1500 FT) 118.6(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 119.1(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 119.1(331-045 2500 FT & BLO) 123.8(206-249 ALL ALTS) 126.4(046-205 ALL ALTS) 257.9(046-205 ALL ALTS) 257.9(206-249 ALL ALTS) 290.5(250-330 ABV 1500 FT) 290.5(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 363.2(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 363.2(331-045 2500 FT & BLO)
CLEARANCE DELIVERY: 119.4 128.65 323.1
EMERG: 121.5 243.0
ANG OPS: 311.0
USB ANG OPS: 4897.5
CLASS C: 118.6(250-330 ABV 1500 FT) 119.1(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 119.1(331-045 2500 FT & BLO) 123.8(206-249 ALL ALTS) 126.4(046-205 ALL ALTS) 257.9(046-205 ALL ALTS) 257.9(206-249 ALL ALTS) 290.5(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 363.2(250-330 1500 FT & BLO) 363.2(331-045 2500 FT & BLO)
CLASS C IC: 118.6(331-045 ABV 2500 FT) 290.5(250-330 ABV 1500 FT)
RDR: 259.1X 271.3X 320.1X 324.3X 327.1X
ANG OPNS: 140.15
UNICOM: 122.950
ASOS at LHD (0.8 NE): 907-245-1618
ATIS at LHD (0.8 NE): 125.6
ASOS at MRI (5.0 NE): 907-272-0542
Also, the airspace and airport/s layout SkyVector: Flight Planning / Aeronautical Charts
How many Frequencies? How many ATC positions? etc etc … Anchorage ain’t a lot like YWLM for a whole host of reasons.
Trying to sell Apples by calling them Walnuts won’t work.
As far as the thread topic goes - Any update on your US friend using less than three miles between IFR and VFR in Class C?
But minds are closed here, they fear change!
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As far as the thread topic goes - Any update on your US friend using less than three miles between IFR and VFR in Class C?
Bing/T28D/Joker10 still waiting on the TCAD price? Thanks.
Hmm, seems somebody is looking for a distracter..
Jack Ranga, what have T28D and Joker10 got to do with Ryan TCAD prices..
Methinks if Jack Ranga actualy owned an aircraft knowing where to look for a price would be easy..
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Bing/T28D/Joker10 still waiting on the TCAD price? Thanks.
Methinks if Jack Ranga actualy owned an aircraft knowing where to look for a price would be easy..
.
The data breakdown on page 31 of the link is instructive. Note the collision statistics - Midair - 20, 12 of which were fatal, one of which involved a Part 135 aircraft.
Do you think ADS-B and GNSS in Alaska was an FAA priority by happenstance?
Do you think ADS-B and GNSS in Alaska was an FAA priority by happenstance?
It is interesting that from what i hear (never been there me-self) that a big problem in Alaska is the way much VFR air traffic gets funneled and concentrated through valleys - the sorta thing we don't have as much of here in Oz.
There are claims about that ADS-B reduced the Alaskan accident rate. Yet, when yer look into it there is often comments of failure to avoid cumulogranitis as the accident cause. Seems we need to have a closer look-see at The Chaser claims..
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Binga
Page 31 of the FAA Alaska analysis (link in post #123 above)
Mid-Air Collisions (just Mid-Air collisions)
- Total Accidents = 20
- Total Fatal Accidents = 12
CFIT for example is separately listed as:-
IN FLIGHT COLLISION WITH TERRAIN/WATER
- Total accidents = 156
- Total Fatal accidents = 43
... all other accident categories are listed separately also!
They are not claims made by me (unlike the unsubstanciated waffle of others), they are facts published by the FAA USA
Page 31 of the FAA Alaska analysis (link in post #123 above)
Mid-Air Collisions (just Mid-Air collisions)
- Total Accidents = 20
- Total Fatal Accidents = 12
CFIT for example is separately listed as:-
IN FLIGHT COLLISION WITH TERRAIN/WATER
- Total accidents = 156
- Total Fatal accidents = 43
... all other accident categories are listed separately also!
They are not claims made by me (unlike the unsubstanciated waffle of others), they are facts published by the FAA USA
For those who MAY be interested.....
The Ryan TCAD 9900BX is avbl ex USA for USD$20,200 with the display....and for $19,200 without.
The link refers.....
Ryan TCAD 9900BX | Flying Magazine | The World?s Most Widely Read Aviation Magazine
Not your 'everyday - impulse buy' purchase I would have thought....
Cheers
The Ryan TCAD 9900BX is avbl ex USA for USD$20,200 with the display....and for $19,200 without.
The link refers.....
Ryan TCAD 9900BX | Flying Magazine | The World?s Most Widely Read Aviation Magazine
Not your 'everyday - impulse buy' purchase I would have thought....
Cheers
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Dick Smith said;
Nice holiday for the lucky controller but once again (as you know) your offer will be wasted, as its the CDF, the CEO AsA and CASA, plus the airlines and many others out there who make the rules that need to be convinced of your suggestions. Yet you continue to focus on the coalface controllers at Willy believing they can implement your change !
Why do you think the workers in Defence get to change the rules by themselves ?
I don't expect you to answer the above question, as you tend to steer around them at your leisure, or reply with the "closed minds" statement. I also noticed that you didn't comment on my last post when I made mention of how Defence does mix IFR/VFR ops every day, or an earlier post by SCRAN on Pearce procedures. Funny that !
Boofhead, thanks but they just don't get it.
I am willingly to cover the cost of a Willy controller traveling to Anchorage to see how they operate ATC with IFR and VFR traffic.
Modern procedures are the way to do it.
But minds are closed here, they fear change!
I am willingly to cover the cost of a Willy controller traveling to Anchorage to see how they operate ATC with IFR and VFR traffic.
Modern procedures are the way to do it.
But minds are closed here, they fear change!
Why do you think the workers in Defence get to change the rules by themselves ?
I don't expect you to answer the above question, as you tend to steer around them at your leisure, or reply with the "closed minds" statement. I also noticed that you didn't comment on my last post when I made mention of how Defence does mix IFR/VFR ops every day, or an earlier post by SCRAN on Pearce procedures. Funny that !
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Methinks if Jack Ranga actualy owned an aircraft knowing where to look for a price would be easy..
Jack Ranga has actually owned two, even got all the receipts! If you asked me how much I paid for the aircraft or any component I could tell you Has binga actually own an aircraft? mmmmmmmmm, can't find the receipts eh?
You could even come down to the hangar and have a look? Plenty of pruners have so far? Bit far from Perth I 'spose?