Ansett and the Fokker Friendship
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Did Ansett operate the Frugal in the West or was that MMA?
Not sure if they eventually changed them to Ansett colours or not before they finished operating in WA?
"Imagine it would be a long way from Australia to Europe in the F27".
At one stage in order to place new ones in the market, Fokker or the various leasing companies had to take old ones back in trade. Their overhaul facility at Ypenberg could not always cope, so Air NZ got in on the act doing major checks at Christchurch. Several were ferried to and from Europe and the Mid-East to NZ. On average it was a week each way, with vital crew rest in Bangkok. Purely to meet the flight and duty regulations, of course....
Others went the other way across the Atlantic to the USA to be converted into small parcel freighters. Good fun in winter.
On one occasion ferrying from Ypenberg to Tehran, we momentarily drifted into Russian airspace (pre-GPS) due to a dodgy NDB up near the northern Iranian border. Lucky it was the dead of winter and very dark. The Russkies were probably full of vodka because they did not come after us.
At one stage in order to place new ones in the market, Fokker or the various leasing companies had to take old ones back in trade. Their overhaul facility at Ypenberg could not always cope, so Air NZ got in on the act doing major checks at Christchurch. Several were ferried to and from Europe and the Mid-East to NZ. On average it was a week each way, with vital crew rest in Bangkok. Purely to meet the flight and duty regulations, of course....
Others went the other way across the Atlantic to the USA to be converted into small parcel freighters. Good fun in winter.
On one occasion ferrying from Ypenberg to Tehran, we momentarily drifted into Russian airspace (pre-GPS) due to a dodgy NDB up near the northern Iranian border. Lucky it was the dead of winter and very dark. The Russkies were probably full of vodka because they did not come after us.
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Enjoying the photos and tales - keep them coming. Imagine it would be a long way from Australia to Europe in the F27.
Yes, although many aircraft do the flight every day, usually with only one stop, it is a VERY LONG flight in an F27.
With the VH-FNR ferry we took 9 days including a free day (day off) in Bahrain.
The first day was the longest, and we didn't even leave Australia. The first leg Melbourne (Tullamarine) to Alice Springs was the longest leg, we almost had to divert to Leigh Creek for fuel. Then to Broome for our first overnight, have already posted a photo of the 3 Captains in Broome, and this is VH-FNR the morning we left Tullamarine, AN 767 behind.
Next morning we finally departed Australia, and after a transit in Denpasar we overnighted (Seletar) Singapore.
The third day was the shortest, only one leg to Bangkok.
Then day 4 was from Bangkok, a transit in Calcutta before overnight Delhi.
Have already posted some photos of those places and this is another from Delhi.
Day 5 was from Delhi via Karachi to Bahrain overnight, where we also had a well deserved day off, this is VH-FNR in Bahrain.
To be continued...................................
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Day 7 (after day off) we left Bahrain really early, and after transit of Jeddah, arrived nice and early in Cairo for overnight, and in time to go and visit the Pyramids etc, see earlier photo.
Day 8 was from Cairo to a transit in Athens, one of the busiest air spaces I had seen at the time, to overnight in Milan.
On departure Cairo it is (was) illegal to overfly the Pyramids, so the Captain flying that leg banked FNR at the apprpriate time so I could get this photo of them.
And VH-FNR in Milan, where the bus they sent out to us, just for Crew, was as big as FNR.
Day 9 was from Milan, via the Fokker Factory, to our final destination of Norwich in England.
The F27 was very reliable, as usual, only problems were with a maxaret playing up sometimes and no wet power on one engine a couple of times, neither of these things slowed us down as we were using major airports with massive long runways (for an F27).
Only ''scare" was one day an emergency beacon went off near where we were, which was near where that Airbus was shot down, but it turned out to be an oil rig.
That is about it.......................
Day 8 was from Cairo to a transit in Athens, one of the busiest air spaces I had seen at the time, to overnight in Milan.
On departure Cairo it is (was) illegal to overfly the Pyramids, so the Captain flying that leg banked FNR at the apprpriate time so I could get this photo of them.
And VH-FNR in Milan, where the bus they sent out to us, just for Crew, was as big as FNR.
Day 9 was from Milan, via the Fokker Factory, to our final destination of Norwich in England.
The F27 was very reliable, as usual, only problems were with a maxaret playing up sometimes and no wet power on one engine a couple of times, neither of these things slowed us down as we were using major airports with massive long runways (for an F27).
Only ''scare" was one day an emergency beacon went off near where we were, which was near where that Airbus was shot down, but it turned out to be an oil rig.
That is about it.......................
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Thou shalt do it as it is done in the West
I guess it happens at most places where a Company is taken over.
Thread Starter
Tinpis, Mickey Mouse Airlines operated the F-27 from Perth around to Groote Eylandt and all ports in between. The Fokker would have been a lot more comfortable than the DC-3, still would have been some long days in the saddle!
I think at one stage the MMA Fokkers were doing the most hours and had the highest daily utilisation of any operator in the world.
Worth getting a copy of the book, I Flew for MMA.
In the boook he makes mention of the healthy disrespect that the real Ansett pilots had for their cousins in the west! Meanwhile the MMA boys regarded their Ansett brothers as controlled airspace pilots only!
I think at one stage the MMA Fokkers were doing the most hours and had the highest daily utilisation of any operator in the world.
Worth getting a copy of the book, I Flew for MMA.
In the boook he makes mention of the healthy disrespect that the real Ansett pilots had for their cousins in the west! Meanwhile the MMA boys regarded their Ansett brothers as controlled airspace pilots only!
Stationair 8:
“I flew for MMA” is truly an excellent book with amazing detail - Reg Adkins either had an exceptional memory or was a prodigious note-taker. But don’t forget his only airline experience was with MMA. Therefore, he might just have been a little biased, mightn’t he?
“Meanwhile the MMA boys regarded their Ansett brothers as controlled airspace pilots only!”
What utter crap! When I started in Ansett 1970, Melbourne-based F.27’s operated (at a quick count) to Adelaide, Leigh Creek, Oodnadatta, Alice Springs, Tennant Creek, Tindal, Darwin, Melbourne, Hamilton, Mt. Gambier, Warrnambool, Portland, King Island, Smithton, Wynyard, Devonport, Launceston, Hobart, Flinders Island, Mildura, Broken Hill, Wagga, Canberra, Cooma, Corryong and Albury. That’s 27 ports, and 19 of them were OCTA. The proportions for Brisbane and Cairns-based crews would have been similar.
Airsupport:
“they were very nice people, and a very good operator, just they resented being told to do things differently to the way they were by their new Big Brother (Ansett)”.
This statement is true as far as it goes, but there’s much more to this story. Being typically parochial West Australians, MMA staff certainly did resent being taken over by Ansett (or anyone else from the much-vaunted The East).
They suffered a typical small airline complex in that they were totally antagonistic to any ideas they hadn’t thought of themselves (the “not invented here” syndrome). They had an unshakable belief in just how good they were. The small management/flight standards/training group was incredibly insular, and ensured that any new blood was only admitted if he were to adopt and promote existing ideas. Their procedures and outlook were firmly wedded in the DC-3 era. When the F.27 arrived, was treated as though it was faster than Concorde/bigger than a Jumbo – you had to be an ace to fly it in their eyes. This insularity was reinforced by the introduction of the F.28, since for many years they were the sole operator of this type within the ATI Group and hence removed from any exterior input.
In fact, they weren't a bad airline at all, but they had a dangerously inflated self-regard.
Had they remained totally separate with their pilots never to have flown anything less forgiving than the F.28, this probably wouldn’t have mattered very much in the big scheme of things (other than to those forced to listen to them). The integration of the entire ATI pilot group in the late 1970’s meant that there was to be interchange between Ansett Airlines, ANSW, ASA & MMA. As an example, a pilot could be initially trained by one of the subsidiaries and then subsequently move to another group. It became readily apparent that wildly different standards and procedures existed (you’ll recall an earlier posting with the statement that one of Ansett’s great strengths was their standardization; it became obvious that this only applied to Ansett Airlines; the subsidiaries clearly tailored their procedures to whoever was captain on that particular flight). Even worse in the MMA case was the shabby treatment of anyone who had the temerity to go there; I can recall several cases of pilots with previously unblemished records being rejected by MMA as totally unsuitable and, conversely, some pilots trained by them, to put it kindly, were incapable of fitting into a L188/DC-9/B727 operation. There were also many cases when training reports were, at best, simply dishonest.
One of Sir Peter’s better ideas was to place Ansett Flight Ops (with responsibility for flight standards) above all the Ansett Group to ensure commonality. To their great credit, both ASA and ANSW were enthusiastic and very helpful to facilitate this. MMA’s ingrained belief in the own superiority produced much complaining before they eventually toed the line.
“I flew for MMA” is truly an excellent book with amazing detail - Reg Adkins either had an exceptional memory or was a prodigious note-taker. But don’t forget his only airline experience was with MMA. Therefore, he might just have been a little biased, mightn’t he?
“Meanwhile the MMA boys regarded their Ansett brothers as controlled airspace pilots only!”
What utter crap! When I started in Ansett 1970, Melbourne-based F.27’s operated (at a quick count) to Adelaide, Leigh Creek, Oodnadatta, Alice Springs, Tennant Creek, Tindal, Darwin, Melbourne, Hamilton, Mt. Gambier, Warrnambool, Portland, King Island, Smithton, Wynyard, Devonport, Launceston, Hobart, Flinders Island, Mildura, Broken Hill, Wagga, Canberra, Cooma, Corryong and Albury. That’s 27 ports, and 19 of them were OCTA. The proportions for Brisbane and Cairns-based crews would have been similar.
Airsupport:
“they were very nice people, and a very good operator, just they resented being told to do things differently to the way they were by their new Big Brother (Ansett)”.
This statement is true as far as it goes, but there’s much more to this story. Being typically parochial West Australians, MMA staff certainly did resent being taken over by Ansett (or anyone else from the much-vaunted The East).
They suffered a typical small airline complex in that they were totally antagonistic to any ideas they hadn’t thought of themselves (the “not invented here” syndrome). They had an unshakable belief in just how good they were. The small management/flight standards/training group was incredibly insular, and ensured that any new blood was only admitted if he were to adopt and promote existing ideas. Their procedures and outlook were firmly wedded in the DC-3 era. When the F.27 arrived, was treated as though it was faster than Concorde/bigger than a Jumbo – you had to be an ace to fly it in their eyes. This insularity was reinforced by the introduction of the F.28, since for many years they were the sole operator of this type within the ATI Group and hence removed from any exterior input.
In fact, they weren't a bad airline at all, but they had a dangerously inflated self-regard.
Had they remained totally separate with their pilots never to have flown anything less forgiving than the F.28, this probably wouldn’t have mattered very much in the big scheme of things (other than to those forced to listen to them). The integration of the entire ATI pilot group in the late 1970’s meant that there was to be interchange between Ansett Airlines, ANSW, ASA & MMA. As an example, a pilot could be initially trained by one of the subsidiaries and then subsequently move to another group. It became readily apparent that wildly different standards and procedures existed (you’ll recall an earlier posting with the statement that one of Ansett’s great strengths was their standardization; it became obvious that this only applied to Ansett Airlines; the subsidiaries clearly tailored their procedures to whoever was captain on that particular flight). Even worse in the MMA case was the shabby treatment of anyone who had the temerity to go there; I can recall several cases of pilots with previously unblemished records being rejected by MMA as totally unsuitable and, conversely, some pilots trained by them, to put it kindly, were incapable of fitting into a L188/DC-9/B727 operation. There were also many cases when training reports were, at best, simply dishonest.
One of Sir Peter’s better ideas was to place Ansett Flight Ops (with responsibility for flight standards) above all the Ansett Group to ensure commonality. To their great credit, both ASA and ANSW were enthusiastic and very helpful to facilitate this. MMA’s ingrained belief in the own superiority produced much complaining before they eventually toed the line.
Silly Old Git
Well written Dora
Standards. It was a nice feeling to sit in a Boeing seat with any fellow AN'er and know EXACTLY what happened next. When you lined up to press the TOGA switches you could concentrate fully on what was ahead, not left behind on the tarmac.
Standards. It was a nice feeling to sit in a Boeing seat with any fellow AN'er and know EXACTLY what happened next. When you lined up to press the TOGA switches you could concentrate fully on what was ahead, not left behind on the tarmac.
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Dora-9,
I don't know why you even mention what I said.
I said nothing wrong, and I was being kind.
I was over there working for Ansett, but with MMA for the F27 while a lot of their people were doing initial F28 training.
They were good people and good operators, just as I said they VERY much resented being taken over by Ansett and having to change the way they did things.
I don't know why you even mention what I said.
I said nothing wrong, and I was being kind.
I was over there working for Ansett, but with MMA for the F27 while a lot of their people were doing initial F28 training.
They were good people and good operators, just as I said they VERY much resented being taken over by Ansett and having to change the way they did things.
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No, but we had a "systems" trainer of the cockpit with prop lights, boost pumps and things that went on and off with a switch pannel on the outside.
For all IFR re-newals, we belted around in a link trainer every six months, including a DME homing effort. (instuctor usually went home for lunch while one tried to find the fix)
Regards..
For all IFR re-newals, we belted around in a link trainer every six months, including a DME homing effort. (instuctor usually went home for lunch while one tried to find the fix)
Regards..
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Ah yes, the DME homing! As you say, the instructor would go and have lunch! A lot of fun, but useful. Can remember that going to Strahan on the west coast of Tassie, the DME letdown was quicker than the NDB. You usually got the DME well before the NDB (30nm range).
EWP the first aeroplane that I ever flew!
(as a young kid on work experience with EWA, night freight SYD-BNE)
now 12000 hours later still a very memorable moment, especially the laughs from the other blokes watching me strangle the controls
.
(as a young kid on work experience with EWA, night freight SYD-BNE)
now 12000 hours later still a very memorable moment, especially the laughs from the other blokes watching me strangle the controls
.
Dora -9. Agree with all you said.
In addition when AN decided to operate a weekly DC9 service DRW-PER and return service with an intermediate stop at PHE during the 1970's the MV pilots demanded the flying saying it was "theirs".
AN were forced into providing a DC9 endorsement for a number of MV pilots who also continued to fly the F28. The route was an AN profit and loss route and put AN at a cost disadvantage compared with the equivalent TN DC9 operation.
One of the MV pilots endorsed was Capt Col S.i.h who was I think the head honcho within MV at the time. Some of the MV pilots struggled with the DC9 initially. It was the belief in AN this was due to the mindset within MV over the years. The AN DC9 trainers were very generous towards the MV pilots.
The same could not be said for the MV pilots who trained some WX pilots on the F28. An AN F/O I knew decided to bid for a F28 command slot in MV. He was 'failed' by the MV system and returned to his F/O position in AN. He eventually obtained his command within AN.
In addition when AN decided to operate a weekly DC9 service DRW-PER and return service with an intermediate stop at PHE during the 1970's the MV pilots demanded the flying saying it was "theirs".
AN were forced into providing a DC9 endorsement for a number of MV pilots who also continued to fly the F28. The route was an AN profit and loss route and put AN at a cost disadvantage compared with the equivalent TN DC9 operation.
One of the MV pilots endorsed was Capt Col S.i.h who was I think the head honcho within MV at the time. Some of the MV pilots struggled with the DC9 initially. It was the belief in AN this was due to the mindset within MV over the years. The AN DC9 trainers were very generous towards the MV pilots.
The same could not be said for the MV pilots who trained some WX pilots on the F28. An AN F/O I knew decided to bid for a F28 command slot in MV. He was 'failed' by the MV system and returned to his F/O position in AN. He eventually obtained his command within AN.
Thread Starter
Tinpis you would have fitted in like a frog in a sock at MMA!
Okay its the mid 1970's you have survived a couple of years in GA, you have passed your SCPL, got an Instrument Rating and you done some time in the Baron/PA-23/C310 and you get a call from Ansett.
What was involved with ground school, endorsement, line training and eventually line flying etc. How long did the process take? After the endorsement would do night freight or passengers? How long would you spend on the F-27, before moving onto the Electra, DC-9 or B727?
Okay its the mid 1970's you have survived a couple of years in GA, you have passed your SCPL, got an Instrument Rating and you done some time in the Baron/PA-23/C310 and you get a call from Ansett.
What was involved with ground school, endorsement, line training and eventually line flying etc. How long did the process take? After the endorsement would do night freight or passengers? How long would you spend on the F-27, before moving onto the Electra, DC-9 or B727?
The most important single requirement to get into MMA was to be a West Australian!
I joined Ansett in early 1970 - ground school one month, the following month Link and aircraft endorsement (no simulator; 5 sessions of 3-4 hours each shared by 2 students), then line training (10 weeks; 100 sectors/87 hours). I was "Cleared to the Line" 4 months & one week after joining.
We were told that we'd all be on the F.28 or DC-9 after 2 years which didn't happen. An economic downturn and the failure of the F.28 out of Sydney fixed that! I was transferred to the DC-4/Carvair fleet at the end of my first year (no Bid Rights in the first two years), returned to the F.27 at the end of my second year (I missed day flying and the girls!) and spent 2 more years before going onto the DC-9.
I joined Ansett in early 1970 - ground school one month, the following month Link and aircraft endorsement (no simulator; 5 sessions of 3-4 hours each shared by 2 students), then line training (10 weeks; 100 sectors/87 hours). I was "Cleared to the Line" 4 months & one week after joining.
We were told that we'd all be on the F.28 or DC-9 after 2 years which didn't happen. An economic downturn and the failure of the F.28 out of Sydney fixed that! I was transferred to the DC-4/Carvair fleet at the end of my first year (no Bid Rights in the first two years), returned to the F.27 at the end of my second year (I missed day flying and the girls!) and spent 2 more years before going onto the DC-9.