Ansett and the Fokker Friendship
Thread Starter
The good folks on King and Flinder's Island must have felt a downgrade in the service when Ansett removed the F-27's off the run and replaced them with the TAA Queenair and then Air Tasmania's DC-3 . Likewise the western Queensland travellers must have felt the same way when the Jetstream and then later the Flight West B200's took over from the F-27.
Did Ansett run Melbourne to Mount Gambier with the F-27?
The original 09/27 at Wynyard, was that used by the Fokkers or was the new runway to the south built by the time they replaced the DC-3/4's?
Having look at that temporary gravel strip at Devonport via google, it would have been fairly short about 1000-1100 metres compared to the original 06/24, so it would have been fairly restrictive operations for TAA/Ansett Fokkers?
Did Ansett run Melbourne to Mount Gambier with the F-27?
The original 09/27 at Wynyard, was that used by the Fokkers or was the new runway to the south built by the time they replaced the DC-3/4's?
Having look at that temporary gravel strip at Devonport via google, it would have been fairly short about 1000-1100 metres compared to the original 06/24, so it would have been fairly restrictive operations for TAA/Ansett Fokkers?
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Talking about this thread in the crew room, one of the lads mentioned that either a TAA or Ansett F-27 clipped a hangar taxying in one night at Launceston in about 1957. Any one know the details?
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IIRC we operated MEL/HLT/MGB, overnight and reverse in the very early hours next day.
Airlines of SA flew ADL/MGB/ADL.
It was allways wet, dark and cold departing MGB and usually the "air" had escaped overnight requiring a prolonged engine run before departure, followed by an NDB into HLT where you didn't even get the wheels into the top of the fog before departing to MEL.
Regards
Airlines of SA flew ADL/MGB/ADL.
It was allways wet, dark and cold departing MGB and usually the "air" had escaped overnight requiring a prolonged engine run before departure, followed by an NDB into HLT where you didn't even get the wheels into the top of the fog before departing to MEL.
Regards
Stationar8:
I guess the sequence flown depended on the period.
During my first "tour"(1970-1974) we flew either ML-HML-MGB-ADL, overnighted ADL and then flew the return the following day or flew ML-HML-MGB-AD, had the aircaft reconfigured as a freighter, returning direct to ML around midnight. The other way was worse, departing ML around 0300 for AD, hanging around in the crew room for a few hours then flew (with the aircraft reconfigured was more as a pax aircraft) AD-MGB-HML-ML.
But the ASA pilots were stridently claiming that AD-MGB was "theirs", so by the time I flew the F.27 again (1978-1982) we flew ML-HML-MGB, overnighted MGB, returning the next day.
I guess the sequence flown depended on the period.
During my first "tour"(1970-1974) we flew either ML-HML-MGB-ADL, overnighted ADL and then flew the return the following day or flew ML-HML-MGB-AD, had the aircaft reconfigured as a freighter, returning direct to ML around midnight. The other way was worse, departing ML around 0300 for AD, hanging around in the crew room for a few hours then flew (with the aircraft reconfigured was more as a pax aircraft) AD-MGB-HML-ML.
But the ASA pilots were stridently claiming that AD-MGB was "theirs", so by the time I flew the F.27 again (1978-1982) we flew ML-HML-MGB, overnighted MGB, returning the next day.
Thread Starter
Welcome back Dora-9, thanks for that info.
With the senority system at Ansett and TAA, did you have to take a command on the F-27, or could you wait for a command slot to come up on the DC-9/B727?
When operating into most country ports, the F-27 would have required alternate fuel due to only having 1 x ADF and 1 x VOR, and places like Mt Gambier, Kingscote, Port Lincoln, Wynyard, King Island, Flinders Island only have a NDB approach or did the DME Homing negate the alternate fuel requirement?
With the senority system at Ansett and TAA, did you have to take a command on the F-27, or could you wait for a command slot to come up on the DC-9/B727?
When operating into most country ports, the F-27 would have required alternate fuel due to only having 1 x ADF and 1 x VOR, and places like Mt Gambier, Kingscote, Port Lincoln, Wynyard, King Island, Flinders Island only have a NDB approach or did the DME Homing negate the alternate fuel requirement?
Good questions Stationair8, I’ll attempt to answer.
“With the senority system at Ansett and TAA, did you have to take a command on the F-27, or could you wait for a command slot to come up on the DC-9/B727?”
In the early 70’s all Initial Commands were supposed to be only on the F.27 or DC-4/Carvair. Driven I think by certain Brisbane-based pilots, the AFAP opposed this and wanted commands to be done on whatever type your seniority allowed; the change occurred around 1978. Their justification was that this was unfairly restrictive on the BNE-based pilots, as the vast majority of F.27 flying in the Ansett network was Melbourne based. They either had to wait a lot longer than their southern compatriots or transfer to Melbourne (I confess at the time I had no sympathy for this argument; now that I’m retired in Queensland I fully understand!).
Also in some circles getting a command on the Friendship was perceived as “hard” and the Melbourne Checkers regarded as hard-line zealots. It was certainly easier to simply swap seats on your existing type which you already knew (say the DC-9). Further the mainline jet operation virtually never went OCTA and you generally had much better support wherever you went – it was much less demanding than the F.27 operation. The downside of staying in your preferred base and existing type was that it would/could cost you years extra to get into the left hand seat.
“When operating into most country ports, the F-27 would have required alternate fuel due to only having 1 x ADF and 1 x VOR, and places like Mt Gambier, Kingscote, Port Lincoln, Wynyard, King Island, Flinders Island only have a NDB approach or did the DME Homing negate the alternate fuel requirement?”
I’m really straining to remember this! I don’t recall having to carry an alternate for (say) WNY because of only having a single ADF, so I think the DME Homing counted as the second approach possibility. Anyone else got a comment here?
But I also seem to recall that inevitably we carried round trip fuel anyway. In those days carrying required fuel only was a totally foreign concept, and notion that it costs fuel to carry extra fuel was barely understood. You simply chucked on as much fuel as you wanted, padded it out, then added a bit more, and it was never queried. So very different to my next employer!
“With the senority system at Ansett and TAA, did you have to take a command on the F-27, or could you wait for a command slot to come up on the DC-9/B727?”
In the early 70’s all Initial Commands were supposed to be only on the F.27 or DC-4/Carvair. Driven I think by certain Brisbane-based pilots, the AFAP opposed this and wanted commands to be done on whatever type your seniority allowed; the change occurred around 1978. Their justification was that this was unfairly restrictive on the BNE-based pilots, as the vast majority of F.27 flying in the Ansett network was Melbourne based. They either had to wait a lot longer than their southern compatriots or transfer to Melbourne (I confess at the time I had no sympathy for this argument; now that I’m retired in Queensland I fully understand!).
Also in some circles getting a command on the Friendship was perceived as “hard” and the Melbourne Checkers regarded as hard-line zealots. It was certainly easier to simply swap seats on your existing type which you already knew (say the DC-9). Further the mainline jet operation virtually never went OCTA and you generally had much better support wherever you went – it was much less demanding than the F.27 operation. The downside of staying in your preferred base and existing type was that it would/could cost you years extra to get into the left hand seat.
“When operating into most country ports, the F-27 would have required alternate fuel due to only having 1 x ADF and 1 x VOR, and places like Mt Gambier, Kingscote, Port Lincoln, Wynyard, King Island, Flinders Island only have a NDB approach or did the DME Homing negate the alternate fuel requirement?”
I’m really straining to remember this! I don’t recall having to carry an alternate for (say) WNY because of only having a single ADF, so I think the DME Homing counted as the second approach possibility. Anyone else got a comment here?
But I also seem to recall that inevitably we carried round trip fuel anyway. In those days carrying required fuel only was a totally foreign concept, and notion that it costs fuel to carry extra fuel was barely understood. You simply chucked on as much fuel as you wanted, padded it out, then added a bit more, and it was never queried. So very different to my next employer!
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Then there were those of us silly enough to try a practice DME letdown in the aircraft for fun .... generally the fun was had by the guy in the other seat smirking and chuckling away to himself. (For the younger folk, a DME letdown was a tad different to a DME arrival).
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Yes, 150 kias, 30 degee heading changes, best G/S to the aid. Overhead, turn onto the outbound heading and descend!. The DME homing was good for places like Strahan, where the NDB range was about 30 nm, and the DME would lock in at about 65 DME, or in the simulator with a cup of coffee and a biscuit!
DME Homing
Overhead, turn onto the outbound heading and descend!
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Actually, doing a VAR letdown in a jet was no different to slower aircraft. Usually, the final approach leg was aligned pretty close to the runway in some cases. DPO inbound leg got you visual to turn left for landing 06, or circle for 24. LT from memory was almost aligned with 32 and HB 12.
Tracking on the aural leg was easy, the null being quite distinctive. Going SRN - SY via overhead DPO and FLI allowed you to track on the DPO VAR south western aural leg from SRN and track to FLI on the NE leg. This was in the days when the only VOR was MEL, WON, SY.
Tracking on the aural leg was easy, the null being quite distinctive. Going SRN - SY via overhead DPO and FLI allowed you to track on the DPO VAR south western aural leg from SRN and track to FLI on the NE leg. This was in the days when the only VOR was MEL, WON, SY.
Thread Starter
When did East-West stop operating the F-27?
What routes did East-West run the F-27 on over the last year of operations?
Did Ansett-Express operate the F-27, or only the F-28 and F-50?
What routes did East-West run the F-27 on over the last year of operations?
Did Ansett-Express operate the F-27, or only the F-28 and F-50?
I seem to recall it was 22 knots, but miraculously it became 30 knots AFTER the F.27 had left the DCA Flying Unit. Does this ring a bell??
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I remember that the FSU blokes at damn near every outport knew the F27's x-wind limitations and no matter what the wind was, always reported the wind to the incoming crews as just under that limit - or they wouldn't get their mail and morning papers!
I certainly remember doing the odd approach looking at the runway through the DV window.
I think it was the windsock at Flinders Island that was reputed to have a brick in it.
I certainly remember doing the odd approach looking at the runway through the DV window.
I think it was the windsock at Flinders Island that was reputed to have a brick in it.
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I seem to recall it was 22 knots, but miraculously it became 30 knots AFTER the F.27 had left the DCA Flying Unit. Does this ring a bell??
'twas at the Flying Unit where I first encountered the problem. I went to bat to have the local DCA limit increased to the RLD certification limit. Jack A, bless his little cottonsocks, and I went head to head. Jack won and I retired to Essendon to lick my wounds.
If I recall from AN, later on, we still had the lower limit.
Now, does that indicate that Dora-9 was at the Flying Unit at some stage - we may, then, each know the other.
I remember that the FSU blokes at damn near every outport knew the F27's x-wind limitations and no matter what the wind was, always reported the wind to the incoming crews as just under that limit - or they wouldn't get their mail and morning papers!
Absolutely - the crews, on the other hand, knew drift angles against speed by memory
I certainly remember doing the odd approach looking at the runway through the DV window.
I can recall, as an F/O, one landing at Cooma with Peter X (mustn't get too close to identifying him). I can't recall the runway directions now but
(a) FSU was concerned that we were landing on the wrong runway
(b) I was watching the runway - over his shoulder - through Peter's side window - not the DV ...
and he greased it on in his normal laid back fashion.
'twas at the Flying Unit where I first encountered the problem. I went to bat to have the local DCA limit increased to the RLD certification limit. Jack A, bless his little cottonsocks, and I went head to head. Jack won and I retired to Essendon to lick my wounds.
If I recall from AN, later on, we still had the lower limit.
Now, does that indicate that Dora-9 was at the Flying Unit at some stage - we may, then, each know the other.
I remember that the FSU blokes at damn near every outport knew the F27's x-wind limitations and no matter what the wind was, always reported the wind to the incoming crews as just under that limit - or they wouldn't get their mail and morning papers!
Absolutely - the crews, on the other hand, knew drift angles against speed by memory
I certainly remember doing the odd approach looking at the runway through the DV window.
I can recall, as an F/O, one landing at Cooma with Peter X (mustn't get too close to identifying him). I can't recall the runway directions now but
(a) FSU was concerned that we were landing on the wrong runway
(b) I was watching the runway - over his shoulder - through Peter's side window - not the DV ...
and he greased it on in his normal laid back fashion.