Is RACWA on finals? YOU WERE WARNED!!
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Who did the due dillagance in the first place?? Many of us at the time said that they were buying nothing, and perhaps buying stuff that was actually owned by the RACWAin the first place.
With reference to Murray Field..am I to understand that they are saying that it is not viable and needs to close regardless of if it is sold or not?
With reference to Murray Field..am I to understand that they are saying that it is not viable and needs to close regardless of if it is sold or not?
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SOPS,
I can only comment on what I ACTUALLY know...a little different to others on here...
The CEO, MK, said on the night,
"Murrayfield is very expensive to operate. We are not making enough money from it. I am also having troubles justifying keeping our aircraft and staff there"
My opinion is this -
the members are not supporting Murrayfield. The public are not supporting Murrayfield. There are not enough facilities to support the commercial realisation of activities at Murrayfield.
The CEO also said..."we have never conducted advertising properly" "there is a major campaign to be launched SOON and I can't comment on it at this time"
My opinion is this -
MK comes from an advertising and marketing background. IF he can get some funds together, and he weaves his magic, he MIGHT be able to get some activities underway O/Seas for WAAC. He MIGHT also get stuff happening here for Murrayfield.
I think that RACWA needs to divest themselves of the land, to the right people!!!!!!! They are not developers. Same as JAH should sell their rights to YPJT - they are developers, not airport managers!
JAH I would think are "watching this space" with RACWA. They would LOVE the ability to have the "TAJ-MA-HAL" - who wouldn't!?! They would also LOVE Murrayfield, I suspect!!!!
Does anyone know who the 6 little ducks in conversation are?
I can only comment on what I ACTUALLY know...a little different to others on here...
The CEO, MK, said on the night,
"Murrayfield is very expensive to operate. We are not making enough money from it. I am also having troubles justifying keeping our aircraft and staff there"
My opinion is this -
the members are not supporting Murrayfield. The public are not supporting Murrayfield. There are not enough facilities to support the commercial realisation of activities at Murrayfield.
The CEO also said..."we have never conducted advertising properly" "there is a major campaign to be launched SOON and I can't comment on it at this time"
My opinion is this -
MK comes from an advertising and marketing background. IF he can get some funds together, and he weaves his magic, he MIGHT be able to get some activities underway O/Seas for WAAC. He MIGHT also get stuff happening here for Murrayfield.
I think that RACWA needs to divest themselves of the land, to the right people!!!!!!! They are not developers. Same as JAH should sell their rights to YPJT - they are developers, not airport managers!
JAH I would think are "watching this space" with RACWA. They would LOVE the ability to have the "TAJ-MA-HAL" - who wouldn't!?! They would also LOVE Murrayfield, I suspect!!!!
Does anyone know who the 6 little ducks in conversation are?
short flights long nights
Thanks AirSic, one further question..if Murray Field is sold, will it realise enough cash to pay off current debts?
I think the WAAC should be closed down and everything goes "in house" again.
Is the WAAC actually being used by anyone at the moment?
I think the WAAC should be closed down and everything goes "in house" again.
Is the WAAC actually being used by anyone at the moment?
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SOPS, I think the answer lies in the tried and true phrase, "price is what the market will bear" reality is Mandurah at present is in a real estate slump, over developed and price is really low, developers hurting badly.
So will a parcel of land outside the city and really only good for Industrial development command any premium, I think not, but happy to be proven wrong.
I ran the ruler over it and came to the conclusion that there is a whole lot of better land closer to the coast zoned more favourably.
RACWA is caught in a pickle, sell for low price, call in administrators or try to trade out of a soul destroying position.
So will a parcel of land outside the city and really only good for Industrial development command any premium, I think not, but happy to be proven wrong.
I ran the ruler over it and came to the conclusion that there is a whole lot of better land closer to the coast zoned more favourably.
RACWA is caught in a pickle, sell for low price, call in administrators or try to trade out of a soul destroying position.
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I started flying with RACWA about 12 years ago now. The sole reason I stayed was due to the ECU and Air Force Cadet links, letting me fly GST-free, with fuel paid for by the government, and the cadet instructors flying for free up till GFPT. Once most of those benefits ran out, it wasn't hard to justify moving elsewhere.
For a "club", it didn't really have a club atmosphere about it. You had to pay a membership fee to hire aircraft at a "discounted" rate which was equal to or more than what other people were charging. Instructors and aircraft would be chopped and changed on almost every single booking - you didn't get to know the instructors well, they all seemed to have different ideas on the rules and regulations and approaches to "professionalism". The fleet, while large and fairly well maintained is aging and with the exception of the vintage aircraft quite boring.
I looked around the strip, and settled on TAC. Competitive rates, a small organisation, good personable instructors, excellent aircraft (shiny new Diamonds and the kick-ass CAP-10B), no excessive over the top rules like RACWA seemed to have, and a good atmosphere. Sadly that organisation too was mismanaged, lost a heap of good staff and students, and after some major BS recently I pulled the pin and went back to RACWA. It was just in time to avoid TACs collapse, but now it sounds like RACWA are in just as much trouble - if not more so. It also seems like not much has changed since I left so many years ago.
If RACWA are going to survive and prosper, they're going to have to make some painful decisions - and thankfully some of the management there seem to be aware of this and are coming up with options. Unfortunately they are rather drastic - asking people for more money in the current economic situation is ridiculous because few people are going to have the money to spare.
Pumping up rates will only reduce demand and business, so its not the solution. If anything rates need to decrease, which means that costs are going to have to be cut. The college has already been pointed out as one target and is a fair call. Cutting the aircraft fleet is another wise decision on the cards. I don't think anyones proposed cutting staff or wages yet - no-one wants to be the a##hole who does it but realistically RACWA seem overstaffed and could do with some trimming.
RACWA, even though its a club, needs to be operated like a business. That statement may offend some people but the money and the scale of the business - a multimillion dollar operation - is way too large and there is too much at risk. RACWA has been in strife in the past because pilots and people without strong business credentials have been in positions of power and have made poor decisions. It doesn't need to make a huge profit and it doesn't need to conquer the world of flying training, but it still needs to follow the basic principles of business operation. Things like:
- Risk assessing major business decisions, using proper people and tools
- Extreme attention to customer service
- Developing, rewarding and retaining quality staff
- Seeking out new revenue streams
- Advertising and promoting your product effectively
RACWA needs to work on all of the above but its going to require radical changes, hard decisions, the support of its members, and a huge culture shift within the organisation.
For a "club", it didn't really have a club atmosphere about it. You had to pay a membership fee to hire aircraft at a "discounted" rate which was equal to or more than what other people were charging. Instructors and aircraft would be chopped and changed on almost every single booking - you didn't get to know the instructors well, they all seemed to have different ideas on the rules and regulations and approaches to "professionalism". The fleet, while large and fairly well maintained is aging and with the exception of the vintage aircraft quite boring.
I looked around the strip, and settled on TAC. Competitive rates, a small organisation, good personable instructors, excellent aircraft (shiny new Diamonds and the kick-ass CAP-10B), no excessive over the top rules like RACWA seemed to have, and a good atmosphere. Sadly that organisation too was mismanaged, lost a heap of good staff and students, and after some major BS recently I pulled the pin and went back to RACWA. It was just in time to avoid TACs collapse, but now it sounds like RACWA are in just as much trouble - if not more so. It also seems like not much has changed since I left so many years ago.
If RACWA are going to survive and prosper, they're going to have to make some painful decisions - and thankfully some of the management there seem to be aware of this and are coming up with options. Unfortunately they are rather drastic - asking people for more money in the current economic situation is ridiculous because few people are going to have the money to spare.
Pumping up rates will only reduce demand and business, so its not the solution. If anything rates need to decrease, which means that costs are going to have to be cut. The college has already been pointed out as one target and is a fair call. Cutting the aircraft fleet is another wise decision on the cards. I don't think anyones proposed cutting staff or wages yet - no-one wants to be the a##hole who does it but realistically RACWA seem overstaffed and could do with some trimming.
RACWA, even though its a club, needs to be operated like a business. That statement may offend some people but the money and the scale of the business - a multimillion dollar operation - is way too large and there is too much at risk. RACWA has been in strife in the past because pilots and people without strong business credentials have been in positions of power and have made poor decisions. It doesn't need to make a huge profit and it doesn't need to conquer the world of flying training, but it still needs to follow the basic principles of business operation. Things like:
- Risk assessing major business decisions, using proper people and tools
- Extreme attention to customer service
- Developing, rewarding and retaining quality staff
- Seeking out new revenue streams
- Advertising and promoting your product effectively
RACWA needs to work on all of the above but its going to require radical changes, hard decisions, the support of its members, and a huge culture shift within the organisation.
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Unfortunately pumping up aircraft hire rates is required because they are currently operating under cost when you consider the total cost of aircraft (scheduled maintenance, including engine overhaul, plus the amount of unscheduled maintenance that is required on a 20+ year old aircraft). I find the people that complain "it is too expensive" have never ever been aircraft owners paying the currently hourly rates for engineers.
I started flying with RACWA about 12 years ago now. The sole reason I stayed was due to the ECU and Air Force Cadet links, letting me fly GST-free, with fuel paid for by the government, and the cadet instructors flying for free up till GFPT. Once most of those benefits ran out, it wasn't hard to justify moving elsewhere.
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A lot of clubs that also run commercial activities have the same problem. There are many surf life saving clubs, footy clubs, amateur theatre companies and the like that end up way out of their depth when they try to compete with commercial companies. The SFLC and footy types usually have an overriding association to guide them through stuff, but the others are generally on their own.
Most of them have a committee structure ingrained in their constitutions, and the challenge is getting the 'right' people onto the committee that have both the business skills and the organization's interests at heart. The trouble is that people like that are usually busy running their own business and don't have time to devote to another organization, particularly when there's no personal financial benefit, and often nothing but bucketloads of political crap and backstabbing as a thankyou from the membership after you spend far too much personal (and work
) time working your arse off for the organization. That's just the honourable people, there are also the self servers and people with ulterior motives that regularly turn up on committees to push their own barrows.
Needless to say, this is a cynical view from long personal experience with a similar (although non-flying) company. I've followed this thread with a huge sense of deja vu. Good luck to you all, and remember that no matter how devoted you are to keeping a valued organization alive the bills will just keep coming and your creditors (and most of your customers) don't care that you're a club with worthy goals. They're just looking for either payment or a viable product to purchase. If your product doesn't compete on either price or quality, there's no way of convincing the punters otherwise. Loyalty is so 20th century.
In my experience, the best thing to do is find some honourable experienced small business operators that are willing to be on the committee and convince the members to listen to what they say. Be careful of government and big business people, because even if their hearts are in the right place they don't usually have a knack for operating within a small budget.
Most of them have a committee structure ingrained in their constitutions, and the challenge is getting the 'right' people onto the committee that have both the business skills and the organization's interests at heart. The trouble is that people like that are usually busy running their own business and don't have time to devote to another organization, particularly when there's no personal financial benefit, and often nothing but bucketloads of political crap and backstabbing as a thankyou from the membership after you spend far too much personal (and work
) time working your arse off for the organization. That's just the honourable people, there are also the self servers and people with ulterior motives that regularly turn up on committees to push their own barrows. Needless to say, this is a cynical view from long personal experience with a similar (although non-flying) company. I've followed this thread with a huge sense of deja vu. Good luck to you all, and remember that no matter how devoted you are to keeping a valued organization alive the bills will just keep coming and your creditors (and most of your customers) don't care that you're a club with worthy goals. They're just looking for either payment or a viable product to purchase. If your product doesn't compete on either price or quality, there's no way of convincing the punters otherwise. Loyalty is so 20th century
. In my experience, the best thing to do is find some honourable experienced small business operators that are willing to be on the committee and convince the members to listen to what they say. Be careful of government and big business people, because even if their hearts are in the right place they don't usually have a knack for operating within a small budget.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 22nd Dec 2010 at 11:14.
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This is so true, RACWA is in reality a small business
In my experience, the best thing to do is find some honourable experienced small business operators that are willing to be on the committee and convince the members to listen to what they say. Be careful of government and big business people, because even if their hearts are in the right place they don't usually have a knack for operating within a small budget.
In my experience, the best thing to do is find some honourable experienced small business operators that are willing to be on the committee and convince the members to listen to what they say. Be careful of government and big business people, because even if their hearts are in the right place they don't usually have a knack for operating within a small budget.
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After an opening statement like that you have the hide to tell the club what it is doing wrong? Words fail me.
There is a limit to my knowledge, like I don't know what kind of margin there is on a private hire aircraft or what everyones salary is, so I can't give anything other than broad ideas. Maybe getting in business consultants or people with strong small business experience as suggested is the way to go.
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Hi all, I am new to this thread/forum and have been reading with interest the comments on RACWA. I have been a member for some 5 years and completed my PPL at RACWA.
Like many of you I have experienced the frustrations with club training/fleet etc and am particularly angry with the previous committee and CEO for the decisions (read indecision in many instances) undertaken and the mess they have created. But, I have also experienced the good side of the club. I have made many friends by involving myself in the various flying activities and have learn't much about flying through these activities and from the more experienced flyers and instructors.
I therefore don't want to see RACWA being wound up by Administrators which is a pretty simple call right now. I understand the financial situation the club is in and how difficult it will be to keep it as an ongoing concern but I think we should give the new committee and CEO a chance to work a plan and perhaps with a little luck and much hard work a new RACWA may emerge. I know through a number of discussions with them over the past few weeks that a number of initiatives are underway - some of which have already been hinted at in this forum and some that may radically change RACWA.
The best thing that we members can do right now is to continue to support the club over the next few months - if the Administrators are coming they will need to be called pretty soon or else the new committee will be exposed. Do some flying, get involved and bring your ideas to the committee. The club particularly needs the ideas and support of our younger members - we will know soon enough if we still have a RACWA.
Regards
Like many of you I have experienced the frustrations with club training/fleet etc and am particularly angry with the previous committee and CEO for the decisions (read indecision in many instances) undertaken and the mess they have created. But, I have also experienced the good side of the club. I have made many friends by involving myself in the various flying activities and have learn't much about flying through these activities and from the more experienced flyers and instructors.
I therefore don't want to see RACWA being wound up by Administrators which is a pretty simple call right now. I understand the financial situation the club is in and how difficult it will be to keep it as an ongoing concern but I think we should give the new committee and CEO a chance to work a plan and perhaps with a little luck and much hard work a new RACWA may emerge. I know through a number of discussions with them over the past few weeks that a number of initiatives are underway - some of which have already been hinted at in this forum and some that may radically change RACWA.
The best thing that we members can do right now is to continue to support the club over the next few months - if the Administrators are coming they will need to be called pretty soon or else the new committee will be exposed. Do some flying, get involved and bring your ideas to the committee. The club particularly needs the ideas and support of our younger members - we will know soon enough if we still have a RACWA.
Regards
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My comments here are only general as I have no idea of the specifics as they relate to RACWA. However, I have followed the thread with interest and can see some similarities with what has happened elsewhere.
Most aero clubs in Australia were formed before there was any legislation such as the Associations Incorporation Act in Tasmania under which most amateur social and sporting clubs are formed. This act gives the club the same protection as if it was a company but without all the formalities that are involved in the administration of a company.
Most aero clubs, especially the traditional ones, were formed as a company limited by guarantee. This means they are a company but that their liability is limited to the extent of the guarantee undertaken by the members and the profits from their trading cannot be distributed as income to any person. In other words, profit has to be re-invested back into the club.
One consequence of this is that while most aero club committee members think of themselves as being a committee member and are usually referred to like that but they are not. They are board members and have the same legal obligations and duties as say the directors of BHP Billiton. This misunderstanding has often led to problems.
Where a lot of aero clubs ran into trouble was that the structure of a company limited by guarantee did not sit well with commercial activities which required raising capital. To this end many clubs incorporated an associated proprietary company where profits could be distributed to shareholders. Now, where those shareholders were only the aero club members all was good but in many cases there were individual shareholders and this often caused the tail to wag the dog.
Certainly with the aero club where I am a member the forming of a separate trading company with the shareholders being the club and certain individuals sowed the seeds for a very bitter parting of the ways some years later.
For reasons which I am at a loss to understand aero clubs don't seem to be able to manage commercial activities very well (although I suspect greed on the part of some has a lot to do with it). Aviation as an industry is very hard on its players and in reality there are very few who can be seen as outstanding successes and the past is littered with the failures. Aero clubs can be successful but it takes a lot of hard work and rigid budget control, and, unfortunately in these days, the principles of commercial management have to be applied.
I wish the members of RACWA all the best for their future.
Most aero clubs in Australia were formed before there was any legislation such as the Associations Incorporation Act in Tasmania under which most amateur social and sporting clubs are formed. This act gives the club the same protection as if it was a company but without all the formalities that are involved in the administration of a company.
Most aero clubs, especially the traditional ones, were formed as a company limited by guarantee. This means they are a company but that their liability is limited to the extent of the guarantee undertaken by the members and the profits from their trading cannot be distributed as income to any person. In other words, profit has to be re-invested back into the club.
One consequence of this is that while most aero club committee members think of themselves as being a committee member and are usually referred to like that but they are not. They are board members and have the same legal obligations and duties as say the directors of BHP Billiton. This misunderstanding has often led to problems.
Where a lot of aero clubs ran into trouble was that the structure of a company limited by guarantee did not sit well with commercial activities which required raising capital. To this end many clubs incorporated an associated proprietary company where profits could be distributed to shareholders. Now, where those shareholders were only the aero club members all was good but in many cases there were individual shareholders and this often caused the tail to wag the dog.
Certainly with the aero club where I am a member the forming of a separate trading company with the shareholders being the club and certain individuals sowed the seeds for a very bitter parting of the ways some years later.
For reasons which I am at a loss to understand aero clubs don't seem to be able to manage commercial activities very well (although I suspect greed on the part of some has a lot to do with it). Aviation as an industry is very hard on its players and in reality there are very few who can be seen as outstanding successes and the past is littered with the failures. Aero clubs can be successful but it takes a lot of hard work and rigid budget control, and, unfortunately in these days, the principles of commercial management have to be applied.
I wish the members of RACWA all the best for their future.
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The Way It Is
RACWA will not close, neither will it go bankrupt. It has an asset that is worth millions (10 of them last time I looked at the accounts) So to paraphrase Mark Twain "reports of RACWA's death are greatly exaggerated." RACWA was on final but has started the overshoot!
Hi Mr MM,
Reur "It has an asset that is worth millions (10 of them last time I looked at the accounts)"
Are you saying that that is the value on 'An' asset - singular - vs assets - plural..??
Reur "It has an asset that is worth millions (10 of them last time I looked at the accounts)"
Are you saying that that is the value on 'An' asset - singular - vs assets - plural..??
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Last I looked the carrying value of WAAC was a significant part of the club "assets" so one would question their true value in a curb side assessment which is where administrators go, the fire sale would value WAAC at zero I suspect.
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Which Asset
Joker10 - it's clear you need a lesson or two in reading a balance sheet and that you didn't attend the special general meeting. Murrayfield is the asset I'm referring to. The CEO and the treasurer put it all on the presentation they did. The Club owes about 2.5 million dollars, and Murrayfield is worth way more than that. So if they sold it even in a fire sale it'd be worth well in excess of their total debt. If they were smart with the proceeds of the sale, they would indeed have a bright future - both RACWA and WAAC. Yes it's selling off the familty silver, but better they do it than the bank. Problem is that the current committee and ceo may be able to save it and get it on the straight and narrow, but as we've seen too often in the past, a change of committee can screw things up. If it happens again, they won't have an asset like Murrayfield to fall back on. Then they'll really be in the poo. It needs good management into the future if it's to have a future after it gets through this mess.