Is RACWA on finals? YOU WERE WARNED!!
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Lead Sled
I know who Joker10 is and he certainly hasn't had a long knowledge of the goings on at RACWA. He's occasionally brought his T28 up to show it off and spoke at the Old Flyers Group once. Big deal. This thread is getting as boring and full of crap as Tony's Old Flyers address. I'm outa here. Cya.
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Adios Mooney Maniac, Actually just so you know I hve been around Jandakot for 20 + years and I do know how it operates.
RACWA has been an accident waiting to happen for a decade, maniacs aside, it is in reality a dinasour that has lost its way, the balance sheet is so close to fiction that ASIC should ( and may with appropriare prompting) take a real interest in the activity of Directors, S 183 of the Corporations Law comes to mind as a starting point.
RACWA has been an accident waiting to happen for a decade, maniacs aside, it is in reality a dinasour that has lost its way, the balance sheet is so close to fiction that ASIC should ( and may with appropriare prompting) take a real interest in the activity of Directors, S 183 of the Corporations Law comes to mind as a starting point.
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YPJT Missed your posting and yes you are right pre paid is positive for cash flow and negative for assets until brought to value through trade.
Maybe MM could give us all a quick accounting lesson on how assets are valued.
The most common approach I am aware of is "price is what the market will bear"
Anything else is wild speculation.
Maybe MM could give us all a quick accounting lesson on how assets are valued.
The most common approach I am aware of is "price is what the market will bear"
Anything else is wild speculation.
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I have the answer to the debt problem and the culture of the club...
Is the building, planes, etc insured?.... anyone got a jerry can and matches... at least then I can pi** on the ashes... then it can be rebuilt and made what it should have been in the first place.
Completely agree with the instructor texting about 70% of the time while doing circuits and supposed to be teaching, I even had one clown who would open the door on finals joking about me having cross-wind, then told him I didn't want to pay for that sort of "proffessional instruction" (bastard wrote a bad comment in my training file saying I would argue and would make a bad pilot)... [I kept my mouth shut about it till now] and no he was not a Grade 3 instructor, he was a Grade 2... but he was only in his 20's. [last I heard he was sacked for being an idiot]
so that brings me to the point - it's not wether they are Grade 1/2/3.. it's if they have life experiences and are mature enough and have the dedication and passion for the job as well as a love for teaching and helping people acheive their goals as they once did. - which sadly was non-existent with some RACWA instructors as it was just their first flying job to get hours and didn't really give a rats ass and never took it seriously.
oh well...
Is the building, planes, etc insured?.... anyone got a jerry can and matches... at least then I can pi** on the ashes... then it can be rebuilt and made what it should have been in the first place.
Completely agree with the instructor texting about 70% of the time while doing circuits and supposed to be teaching, I even had one clown who would open the door on finals joking about me having cross-wind, then told him I didn't want to pay for that sort of "proffessional instruction" (bastard wrote a bad comment in my training file saying I would argue and would make a bad pilot)... [I kept my mouth shut about it till now] and no he was not a Grade 3 instructor, he was a Grade 2... but he was only in his 20's. [last I heard he was sacked for being an idiot]
so that brings me to the point - it's not wether they are Grade 1/2/3.. it's if they have life experiences and are mature enough and have the dedication and passion for the job as well as a love for teaching and helping people acheive their goals as they once did. - which sadly was non-existent with some RACWA instructors as it was just their first flying job to get hours and didn't really give a rats ass and never took it seriously.
oh well...
Last edited by Sbaker; 29th Dec 2010 at 13:55.
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Needless to say, summing up why the aero club failed.
lets say;
RACWA = ROOF.
STUDENTS = PILLARS.
INSTRUCTORS / STAFF / PROCEDURES / ETC = GROUND.
Many RACWA instructors were bad, as well as alot of procedures and mis-management... so the ground was unstable, which made the pillars collapsed and bought down the roof with them (RACWA), hundreds of ex-RACWA student's can't be wrong - I know several companies who refuse to hire RACWA instructors (who never saw outside of those red bricks).
If RACWA treated their students properly, the students and the cash flow would have stayed, and RACWA would be going strong despite the mismanagement. RACWA was too busy chasing the quick buck rather than developing long term relationships with it's clients.
lets say;
RACWA = ROOF.
STUDENTS = PILLARS.
INSTRUCTORS / STAFF / PROCEDURES / ETC = GROUND.
Many RACWA instructors were bad, as well as alot of procedures and mis-management... so the ground was unstable, which made the pillars collapsed and bought down the roof with them (RACWA), hundreds of ex-RACWA student's can't be wrong - I know several companies who refuse to hire RACWA instructors (who never saw outside of those red bricks).
If RACWA treated their students properly, the students and the cash flow would have stayed, and RACWA would be going strong despite the mismanagement. RACWA was too busy chasing the quick buck rather than developing long term relationships with it's clients.
Last edited by Sbaker; 29th Dec 2010 at 13:52.
Sbaker who are these companies that won't touch RACWA instructors? A lot of they guys and gals I worked with are now working with Skywest, Skippers, Network, Qantas and possibly VB (I can't keep remember about VB that might have been a Uni mate). Who isn't hiring? I don't mind a generalisation and you are of course entilted to your opinion but we weren't all bad.
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its worth????
MM and J10...
I reckon the both of you are right...and wrong!
The damage from the acquisition of WAAC still continues today. Because there is the JAA qualification and the fact that WAAC is an RTO, there are a number of overheads that NEED to be maintained REGARDLESS of whether there are students booked or otherwise.
When there is little activity, such as now, those costs continue to be a burden that are a HUGE drain on the rest of RACWA.
The prepayment of student fees, like the prepayment of flying hours by the members, DOES NOTHING for the organisation. They are a LIABILITY, and administration burden. The accounts need to be maintained and audited,( read cost money). The monies are only beneficial ONCE they have actually been spent by the student/member.
The value of Murrayfield....that is interesting...the whole of the 3 lots there have the appropriate zoning for residential (airpark), commercial and air activities as well as the runways NOW being registered as an airport.
The overall value of the land IS contingent on the WHOLE of the land being intact, IMHO, if 1 piece was "SOLD" off, then the value of the remainder would be diminished.
As for its current "whole" value...I would think that if the bank was to firesale it, i.e. 90 days settlement, then around $4m. If RACWA "controls" the sale, which is easily done, then $6m-$7m would be fair. RACWA CAN use the land as leverage to get a good result for their members...they just have to lose the culture that has been in existence since 2005!!!!
NEW YEAR WILL BE INTERESTING...STILL WAITING TO SEE THE BIG AD CAMPAIGN PROMISED BUT NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK OF.
I reckon the both of you are right...and wrong!
The damage from the acquisition of WAAC still continues today. Because there is the JAA qualification and the fact that WAAC is an RTO, there are a number of overheads that NEED to be maintained REGARDLESS of whether there are students booked or otherwise.
When there is little activity, such as now, those costs continue to be a burden that are a HUGE drain on the rest of RACWA.
The prepayment of student fees, like the prepayment of flying hours by the members, DOES NOTHING for the organisation. They are a LIABILITY, and administration burden. The accounts need to be maintained and audited,( read cost money). The monies are only beneficial ONCE they have actually been spent by the student/member.
The value of Murrayfield....that is interesting...the whole of the 3 lots there have the appropriate zoning for residential (airpark), commercial and air activities as well as the runways NOW being registered as an airport.
The overall value of the land IS contingent on the WHOLE of the land being intact, IMHO, if 1 piece was "SOLD" off, then the value of the remainder would be diminished.
As for its current "whole" value...I would think that if the bank was to firesale it, i.e. 90 days settlement, then around $4m. If RACWA "controls" the sale, which is easily done, then $6m-$7m would be fair. RACWA CAN use the land as leverage to get a good result for their members...they just have to lose the culture that has been in existence since 2005!!!!
NEW YEAR WILL BE INTERESTING...STILL WAITING TO SEE THE BIG AD CAMPAIGN PROMISED BUT NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK OF.
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a pile of twoddle
Sbaker...
RACWA Instructors are considered to be one of the best trained Instructors in WA.
There ARE many that have gone onto bigger things. Some have been picked up by airlines, others by CASA. Some are doing there own bit in GA.
Oh but a few......(that I can think of off the top)
Mary Walton, Roger Weeks, John Douglas OA (still there), John McBride, Karin Hibbard, Mike Pottier.
There are many more..some of whom are working along the strip!
Sbaker....you not make instructors ranks?
RACWA Instructors are considered to be one of the best trained Instructors in WA.
There ARE many that have gone onto bigger things. Some have been picked up by airlines, others by CASA. Some are doing there own bit in GA.
Oh but a few......(that I can think of off the top)
Mary Walton, Roger Weeks, John Douglas OA (still there), John McBride, Karin Hibbard, Mike Pottier.
There are many more..some of whom are working along the strip!
Sbaker....you not make instructors ranks?
There is an element of truth in that, Van G. People who have never done anything outside those walls have been indoctrinated into some extraordinary ways of doing things...often in contravention of all published documents ... and it can mean a huge amount of extra training to get RACWA trained people to open their eyes and minds to the real world, even simple things like using NAIPS, VNCs, POHs etc etc. And some have been known to go round saying that anyone who doesn't do things exactly the same way as the mighty RACWA is "a cowboy". 
It can be a bit like deprogramming someone who has been in a cult. Very time consuming and not always worth the effort unless they are exceptional in other ways, and many of them are.
It can be a bit like deprogramming someone who has been in a cult. Very time consuming and not always worth the effort unless they are exceptional in other ways, and many of them are.
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I'm talking about some of the instructors (a few bad apples) - maybe I am generalising a bit too much.
In regards to being hired by other companies - I was talking about other flight training schools. (quoting a CFI)
in his words:
As RACWA's approach is one size fits all. (standardised training)
Whereas a proper way to train a student pilot is to tailor the learning towards the individual student, as everybody learns differently.
AirSic: I have not taken an instructor course as i'm actually working up north driving haul pacs to pay off a house before i subject myself to $30k, maybe $40k a year wage.
I might be a bit harsh on them, but this is mostly based on personal experience. But saying that, I have had the pleasure of being taught by some very talented instructors at RACWA who are good natural teachers... but unfortunately they all moved on from RACWA before I could fly with them more.
In regards to being hired by other companies - I was talking about other flight training schools. (quoting a CFI)
in his words:
As RACWA's approach is one size fits all. (standardised training)
Whereas a proper way to train a student pilot is to tailor the learning towards the individual student, as everybody learns differently.
AirSic: I have not taken an instructor course as i'm actually working up north driving haul pacs to pay off a house before i subject myself to $30k, maybe $40k a year wage.
I might be a bit harsh on them, but this is mostly based on personal experience. But saying that, I have had the pleasure of being taught by some very talented instructors at RACWA who are good natural teachers... but unfortunately they all moved on from RACWA before I could fly with them more.
Last edited by Sbaker; 30th Dec 2010 at 10:53.
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The issue is not about Instructors nor individual employees, It is about a management structure that went horribly wrong and convinced themselves that the Commercialisation of the enterprise was more important than the rights or opinions of the members who had put them there and had really funded the development of the "Taj Mahal"
Nothing new in this, it destroyed the Newcastle Aero Club in the late 60's/early 70's contributed to the down fall of the RQAC in the 80's and totlly destroyed the Royal Club at Bankstown ( Scofields ).
Sad thing really is RACWA are / were slow learners and we see the ultimate evidence of this today.
Yes Murray Field has a value, personally I suspect it is way short of where RACWA want it to be, WAAC has no value, it was a silly purchase chasing a dream that doesn't really exist, training for JAA in Australia is like prospective training NASA astronauts.
A collective bunch of tired C150 C/152 are worth next to nothing and a bunch of old Mooneys are just that, "old Mooneys"
The Chipmunk is probably good value around $ 80 K and that won't get anything out of escrow, the Tigers are really a maintenance liability.
So where does that leave them, with a Building sitting on leased land ( no freehold) which is an ongoing libility to JAH ( Ascot Capital )
Suspect value for Murray Field ( unrealisable )
No doubt an enthusiastic staff willing them to somehow trade out of this mess and a diminishing membership.
Bloody uncomfortable for Directors I would think.
Nothing new in this, it destroyed the Newcastle Aero Club in the late 60's/early 70's contributed to the down fall of the RQAC in the 80's and totlly destroyed the Royal Club at Bankstown ( Scofields ).
Sad thing really is RACWA are / were slow learners and we see the ultimate evidence of this today.
Yes Murray Field has a value, personally I suspect it is way short of where RACWA want it to be, WAAC has no value, it was a silly purchase chasing a dream that doesn't really exist, training for JAA in Australia is like prospective training NASA astronauts.
A collective bunch of tired C150 C/152 are worth next to nothing and a bunch of old Mooneys are just that, "old Mooneys"
The Chipmunk is probably good value around $ 80 K and that won't get anything out of escrow, the Tigers are really a maintenance liability.
So where does that leave them, with a Building sitting on leased land ( no freehold) which is an ongoing libility to JAH ( Ascot Capital )
Suspect value for Murray Field ( unrealisable )
No doubt an enthusiastic staff willing them to somehow trade out of this mess and a diminishing membership.
Bloody uncomfortable for Directors I would think.
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J-10 you are right to a point
Joker,
"The issue is not about Instructors nor individual employees, It is about a management structure that went horribly wrong and convinced themselves that the Commercialisation of the enterprise was more important than the rights or opinions of the members who had put them there and had really funded the development of the "Taj Mahal"
Nothing new in this, it destroyed the Newcastle Aero Club in the late 60's/early 70's contributed to the down fall of the RQAC in the 80's and totlly destroyed the Royal Club at Bankstown ( Scofields )."
Could not agree with you more!
WHERE TO FROM HERE???
I think that the mindset of the current CEO and committee is to leave the past right there...in the past.
There are some exciting things happening at the moment so we are lead to believe....I wish that the current "management" would just come out and tell it as it is in regards to the way forward, other than they have to come up with $1.2m by end of June 2011.
At the EGM it was announced that the Chippie has gone...but is still at the club...the new owner has left it on-line - a bloody hero as far as the club is concerned. Confirmed on the night at $77k plus GST.
I have seen it in the hangar recently, it hasn't moved from its prominent place.
The Tiger(s) are still there, the Partnavia and 2 mooney's are for sale, along with the 182rg and 2 cessna 172's? ( I may be wrong on the cessnas). I think only 1 tiger is for sale???? NOT SO SURE WHICH ONE - I doubt the "Shirley Adkins" as she is a relatively new ship and is the name sake of the "adkins", LIFE members.(rightly so).
It was also announced on the night that there are 42....yes 42 aircraft that belong to RACWA, sitting there!
The other assets are sitting there doing nothing. The CEO announced, sort of, that there is interest on the sale of Murrayfield....who to? There are 6 interests that are in "conversation" with RACWA...his words!
There is an ad campaign starting soon - no details available as needed to be kept hush hush??? not sure why - the CEO did say he was getting it done "with no funds".
I must say...I have a lot of faith in the CEO...perhaps not so much in the new Pres! The NEW treasurer seems to have the enthusiasm, and the ability...I only hope they are not thwarted by the evil ways of the old culture!
If Murrayfield has to go....so be it! Get out of the S$%T, MOVE ON and get a committee with new rules and policies so that we don't fall into the same hole again!
"The issue is not about Instructors nor individual employees, It is about a management structure that went horribly wrong and convinced themselves that the Commercialisation of the enterprise was more important than the rights or opinions of the members who had put them there and had really funded the development of the "Taj Mahal"
Nothing new in this, it destroyed the Newcastle Aero Club in the late 60's/early 70's contributed to the down fall of the RQAC in the 80's and totlly destroyed the Royal Club at Bankstown ( Scofields )."
Could not agree with you more!
WHERE TO FROM HERE???
I think that the mindset of the current CEO and committee is to leave the past right there...in the past.
There are some exciting things happening at the moment so we are lead to believe....I wish that the current "management" would just come out and tell it as it is in regards to the way forward, other than they have to come up with $1.2m by end of June 2011.
At the EGM it was announced that the Chippie has gone...but is still at the club...the new owner has left it on-line - a bloody hero as far as the club is concerned. Confirmed on the night at $77k plus GST.
I have seen it in the hangar recently, it hasn't moved from its prominent place.
The Tiger(s) are still there, the Partnavia and 2 mooney's are for sale, along with the 182rg and 2 cessna 172's? ( I may be wrong on the cessnas). I think only 1 tiger is for sale???? NOT SO SURE WHICH ONE - I doubt the "Shirley Adkins" as she is a relatively new ship and is the name sake of the "adkins", LIFE members.(rightly so).
It was also announced on the night that there are 42....yes 42 aircraft that belong to RACWA, sitting there!
The other assets are sitting there doing nothing. The CEO announced, sort of, that there is interest on the sale of Murrayfield....who to? There are 6 interests that are in "conversation" with RACWA...his words!
There is an ad campaign starting soon - no details available as needed to be kept hush hush??? not sure why - the CEO did say he was getting it done "with no funds".
I must say...I have a lot of faith in the CEO...perhaps not so much in the new Pres! The NEW treasurer seems to have the enthusiasm, and the ability...I only hope they are not thwarted by the evil ways of the old culture!
If Murrayfield has to go....so be it! Get out of the S$%T, MOVE ON and get a committee with new rules and policies so that we don't fall into the same hole again!
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I agree with you AirSic
It's time to move forward and leave the past in the past.
It seems to me that Murrayfield is the only real option for mending the financial woes of the club. Given the state if the market it may be difficult to sell at this time for a sensible price. I have seen a lot not too far away from Murrayfield that is on the market for $5m - not sure of the zoning and I think it is a larger parcel - but I haven't seen any offers. I would prefer it if an option could be pursued where Murrayfield is not entirely sold off but perhaps a parcel is leased to a developer (eg JV) so that some longer term revenue stream is secured. Off course this won't fix the short term cash problem and any deal will take time to work out particularly given the depressed state of the market - so a fire-sale it may have to be.
Hopefully the new committee has made some progress and will report soon.
It seems to me that Murrayfield is the only real option for mending the financial woes of the club. Given the state if the market it may be difficult to sell at this time for a sensible price. I have seen a lot not too far away from Murrayfield that is on the market for $5m - not sure of the zoning and I think it is a larger parcel - but I haven't seen any offers. I would prefer it if an option could be pursued where Murrayfield is not entirely sold off but perhaps a parcel is leased to a developer (eg JV) so that some longer term revenue stream is secured. Off course this won't fix the short term cash problem and any deal will take time to work out particularly given the depressed state of the market - so a fire-sale it may have to be.
Hopefully the new committee has made some progress and will report soon.
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well said AirSic
If only they could sell Murrayfield to someone or an entity that would be willing to sell it back to them in the future, or give it back to them in peices as they can afford it.. probably take a long time to get back to where they were before.. but if they sell it - at least they would be able to have funds to make some serious changes, and enough dosh left over to upgrade the ageing fleet (which now is a great time looking at the dollar), and somehow make changes to attract back those students that left.
If only they could sell Murrayfield to someone or an entity that would be willing to sell it back to them in the future, or give it back to them in peices as they can afford it.. probably take a long time to get back to where they were before.. but if they sell it - at least they would be able to have funds to make some serious changes, and enough dosh left over to upgrade the ageing fleet (which now is a great time looking at the dollar), and somehow make changes to attract back those students that left.
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Van Gough it is your type of thinking that potentially could save the place !!!
But methinks we will see more of the same old crud that has eminated from there in the past decade, snoooty nosed closed mind RACWA is better than everybody eles.
That is until the recievers are called in !!!!!
But methinks we will see more of the same old crud that has eminated from there in the past decade, snoooty nosed closed mind RACWA is better than everybody eles.
That is until the recievers are called in !!!!!