Virgin Blue hiring
Guys expect to be offered ejet positions as 737 positions will most likely be offered to current ejet FOs or RFOs. Or take an RFO position as date of joining will BE IMPORTANT, it's a group approach. The quicker you get in the better. If anyone tells you that an RFO has no date of joining tell em their dreaming 
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Seriously, I think it's you who are dreaming.
CRFo's currently have no DOJ provisions outside of international.. Their domestic DOJ is their date of induction in domestic irrespective of how many years they spent on the 777.
There is an integration committee currently working on a group wide seniority list to alleviate this problem, except the most junior domestic F/O's are not happy with CRFO's. having the same rights to domestic positions, even though all SFO and command positions are filled by domestic crew. It's a one way street.
CRFo's currently have no DOJ provisions outside of international.. Their domestic DOJ is their date of induction in domestic irrespective of how many years they spent on the 777.
There is an integration committee currently working on a group wide seniority list to alleviate this problem, except the most junior domestic F/O's are not happy with CRFO's. having the same rights to domestic positions, even though all SFO and command positions are filled by domestic crew. It's a one way street.
fmcinop,
"Virgin Australia will publish a list of Pilots in order of date of joining the Virgin Australia
Group"
This is straight from the V aus long haul EBA. Keyword "Group". So your position on the group seniority list is important down the track. Therefore get in quick, no matter what position they offer...
"Virgin Australia will publish a list of Pilots in order of date of joining the Virgin Australia
Group"
This is straight from the V aus long haul EBA. Keyword "Group". So your position on the group seniority list is important down the track. Therefore get in quick, no matter what position they offer...
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Ok. Let me make it clear hopefully this time.
It may be in the international document but there is also a consultation clause. When the EBA was voted on both unions sent out letter confirming that this had not been agreed to by either domestic or NZ SO Really means nothing until they agree. Guess what, they didn't. An integration committee has been set up to work on the actual policy. First meeting was on the 1st Nov. A proposed policy has be put out from the AFAP and we wait for VIPA to do the same. What is clear is what is in the international EBA will not form the basis of the agreement.
Now, unless you work for Virgin, actually fly under the international EBA or are part of the integration committee (I can answer yes to 2 of those and will let you work out which ones), let me say it again, slowerly this time, CRFOS currently have no right to a start date based on their original start as a CRFO. their seniority currently begins the day they transfer to domestic.
If no agreement can be made between the AFAP and VIPA the 3 branches will be totally silo'd. This has been put in writing by the company.
If and when and should and maybe there is an integration agreement reached than you are correct any and all current crew will be placed on that list based on their date of joining or another agreed date. There may well be/ most probably will be conditions/ exclusions placed on CRFO's transferring across though but all other crew should be pure DOJ. we will just have to wait and see the final policy. At the end of the day, if your offered a jet job..... Take it.
It may be in the international document but there is also a consultation clause. When the EBA was voted on both unions sent out letter confirming that this had not been agreed to by either domestic or NZ SO Really means nothing until they agree. Guess what, they didn't. An integration committee has been set up to work on the actual policy. First meeting was on the 1st Nov. A proposed policy has be put out from the AFAP and we wait for VIPA to do the same. What is clear is what is in the international EBA will not form the basis of the agreement.
Now, unless you work for Virgin, actually fly under the international EBA or are part of the integration committee (I can answer yes to 2 of those and will let you work out which ones), let me say it again, slowerly this time, CRFOS currently have no right to a start date based on their original start as a CRFO. their seniority currently begins the day they transfer to domestic.
If no agreement can be made between the AFAP and VIPA the 3 branches will be totally silo'd. This has been put in writing by the company.
If and when and should and maybe there is an integration agreement reached than you are correct any and all current crew will be placed on that list based on their date of joining or another agreed date. There may well be/ most probably will be conditions/ exclusions placed on CRFO's transferring across though but all other crew should be pure DOJ. we will just have to wait and see the final policy. At the end of the day, if your offered a jet job..... Take it.
Last edited by fmcinop; 10th Nov 2012 at 09:20.
Fmc good post although your grammer could have been more coherant. I am trying to understand then what the advantage is in joining as a cruiser if currently no seniority? If its flying a jet my understanding is the hours logged arent worth much so what other advantages are there apart from staff travel?
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If and when and should and maybe there is an integration agreement reached than you are correct any and all current crew will be placed on that list based on their date of joining or another agreed date. There may well be/ most probably will be conditions/ exclusions placed on CRFO's transferring across though but all other crew should be pure DOJ. (my italics).
Last edited by Oakape; 10th Nov 2012 at 21:17.
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I think you will find that the AFAP and VIPA represent Australia pilots only. The first proposal is an AFAP one and the next will come from VIPA. VANZ will have to fight their own battle through their own union. The AFAP and VIPA have no legal right to represent any NZ pilot.
At least the AFAP were gracious enough to offer protection of all NZ commands for NZ pilots. They certainly did not have too even make the offer.
If you are an VAANZ pilot, talk to your own union and take the argument up with them.
HAppy Bandit,
Try typing it all on an iphone with spell check changing every second word to something else on you and doing it all on the small screen.
The advantage of taking a CRFO position is A: you dont know if it will ever be offered to you again. B: you have no idea if and when the next domestic course will be and C: taking a punt nn integration, you will have a start date and a seniority number ahead of other who wait for a domestic position.
The only problem to that brilliant plan is if the unions cant agree on a policy and the 3 arms of Virgin are silo'd. Then life may not be quite so good.
I dont think CRFO time it totally useless at all. If you have never operated a jet its a great way to learn. International is so different to domestic so you are learning things most domestic crew don't know but are handy to have up your sleeve. THe 777 is so Similar to the 737 the training course will be than much easier when the time comes. Once you do eventually make it onto a domestic jet you will learn an entirely new set of procedures and ways to fly, many things international long haul guys have never seen. At the end of it all you have a well balanced approach to flying having been exposed to more than most pilots ever will be.
I still say, if it's offered, take it!
At least the AFAP were gracious enough to offer protection of all NZ commands for NZ pilots. They certainly did not have too even make the offer.
If you are an VAANZ pilot, talk to your own union and take the argument up with them.
HAppy Bandit,
Try typing it all on an iphone with spell check changing every second word to something else on you and doing it all on the small screen.
The advantage of taking a CRFO position is A: you dont know if it will ever be offered to you again. B: you have no idea if and when the next domestic course will be and C: taking a punt nn integration, you will have a start date and a seniority number ahead of other who wait for a domestic position.
The only problem to that brilliant plan is if the unions cant agree on a policy and the 3 arms of Virgin are silo'd. Then life may not be quite so good.
I dont think CRFO time it totally useless at all. If you have never operated a jet its a great way to learn. International is so different to domestic so you are learning things most domestic crew don't know but are handy to have up your sleeve. THe 777 is so Similar to the 737 the training course will be than much easier when the time comes. Once you do eventually make it onto a domestic jet you will learn an entirely new set of procedures and ways to fly, many things international long haul guys have never seen. At the end of it all you have a well balanced approach to flying having been exposed to more than most pilots ever will be.
I still say, if it's offered, take it!
Last edited by fmcinop; 11th Nov 2012 at 02:47.
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I really don't know what the VANZ guys and girls had to complain about in the original offer. They would still have first pick of any VANZ commands and would start to accrue seniority for VAA positions from the middle of the year. So in six or so years time they could jump straight into a VAA command if they chose. At the moment they would have to transfer to VAA and join at the bottom, so they only stood to gain from the offer. As the majority of VAA guys and girls have to agree in the EBA to any integration proposal, don't expect them to agree to you taking a place ahead of them for a VAA command.
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We are talking about group seniority & using individual start dates to determine a position on that list, aren't we? I believe that VAI (except for CFO's) has that now, but that offer wasn't made to VANZ pilots as far as I am aware.
Last edited by Oakape; 11th Nov 2012 at 04:45.
So any more information in regards to required numbers? Can anyone else confirm Ejet and CRFO vacancies? My sources have told me the next ground school isn't planned until March/April next year...
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Bombs Gone I am not sure why you would say that VANZ pilots will be able to tranfer to a command in VAA within 6 years.
The reality is that the "4-6 years to a command" has well and truely finished. Unless there is a massive and unprecedent expansion, any new joiners into VAA/VAI will take at least 10-12 years (the traditional industry norm) to get a Left Hand Seat.
If you dont believe me, consider the numbers: Currently 550+ CzFOs/FOs/SFOs in the system. If there are 50 commands per year, that is 11 years to command - and 50 commands/year would be optimistic!
I started in 2008 and there are still about 300 FOs in front of me for a command. Even at 50 commands/year that means I will take another 6 odd years to command.
The reality is that the "4-6 years to a command" has well and truely finished. Unless there is a massive and unprecedent expansion, any new joiners into VAA/VAI will take at least 10-12 years (the traditional industry norm) to get a Left Hand Seat.
If you dont believe me, consider the numbers: Currently 550+ CzFOs/FOs/SFOs in the system. If there are 50 commands per year, that is 11 years to command - and 50 commands/year would be optimistic!
I started in 2008 and there are still about 300 FOs in front of me for a command. Even at 50 commands/year that means I will take another 6 odd years to command.
Last edited by Anthill; 12th Nov 2012 at 06:00.
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skysook,
I wouldn't be expecting any intakes until at least March next year either. I think people might be getting a bit ahead of themselves... the most recent email from V suggested that there won't be any domestic intakes for a while. I highly doubt that would change so fast.
What's another 3 months anyway? We have already been waiting 8 months!!
I wouldn't be expecting any intakes until at least March next year either. I think people might be getting a bit ahead of themselves... the most recent email from V suggested that there won't be any domestic intakes for a while. I highly doubt that would change so fast.
What's another 3 months anyway? We have already been waiting 8 months!!
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http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Virgin-executive-tips-slower-pace-of-growth-pd20121120-28QGZ?OpenDocument
Perhaps this has something to do with the slow up
Perhaps this has something to do with the slow up