New Water Bomber for Victoria
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Farmer Pete,
Love your work here attempting to bring an relatively informed voice to this perrennial issue that we have on this site, every fire season. I agree just about totally with you in very respect, you have very obviously been in the fire attack scene for some time.
I look to the DC10 at Avalon with some circumspection, that this is a big ticket political item that demonstrates that the vic goverment is doing something, BIG about the forthcoming season. I hope it is effective, though i have many doubts. we will see. At least some big bucks are being allocated, this is a serious matter after all.
As far as the hoary old tracker chestnut that is dished up as the solution every year, a drommy with one engine and single pilot will do the job from a remote fire base that the tracker needs a proper airport for, and yes, I know they were carrier borne, but snowy plains does not have a catapult.
HD
Love your work here attempting to bring an relatively informed voice to this perrennial issue that we have on this site, every fire season. I agree just about totally with you in very respect, you have very obviously been in the fire attack scene for some time.
I look to the DC10 at Avalon with some circumspection, that this is a big ticket political item that demonstrates that the vic goverment is doing something, BIG about the forthcoming season. I hope it is effective, though i have many doubts. we will see. At least some big bucks are being allocated, this is a serious matter after all.
As far as the hoary old tracker chestnut that is dished up as the solution every year, a drommy with one engine and single pilot will do the job from a remote fire base that the tracker needs a proper airport for, and yes, I know they were carrier borne, but snowy plains does not have a catapult.
HD
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Harley
The reason that every fire season the subject of heavy fire bomber comes up is because as an aviation industry we look on in amazement as we attempt to fight fires with small aircraft and helicopters while the rest of the world supplements the lighties with heavies.I for one after extensive discussions with experts can't see why we are different to the rest of the world who seems to use the heavies mainly to extinguish inaccessable fires early after they start.
My suspicion is further aroused by academic papers that make statements that heavies have been trialed here but don't work. The only reference that I can find for heavy trials are solo F27, DC6 and Canadairall at different times. The rest of the world uses multiple heavy aircraft. Why are we different?
The reason that the Trackers come up is (a) they are here and in resonable condition and (b) they seem to work in California where they are used extensivily against similar fires to those that we experience here.The arrival of the DC10 at such short notice shows that even in tight times Government can find money. I for one would rather see that much money funding a number of L188/C130/Orion types distributed around the country.
Wunwing
The reason that every fire season the subject of heavy fire bomber comes up is because as an aviation industry we look on in amazement as we attempt to fight fires with small aircraft and helicopters while the rest of the world supplements the lighties with heavies.I for one after extensive discussions with experts can't see why we are different to the rest of the world who seems to use the heavies mainly to extinguish inaccessable fires early after they start.
My suspicion is further aroused by academic papers that make statements that heavies have been trialed here but don't work. The only reference that I can find for heavy trials are solo F27, DC6 and Canadairall at different times. The rest of the world uses multiple heavy aircraft. Why are we different?
The reason that the Trackers come up is (a) they are here and in resonable condition and (b) they seem to work in California where they are used extensivily against similar fires to those that we experience here.The arrival of the DC10 at such short notice shows that even in tight times Government can find money. I for one would rather see that much money funding a number of L188/C130/Orion types distributed around the country.
Wunwing
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C130s
I met a guy the other day who reckons he has got 2 converted C130s on the way from canada...... He reckons they will be here within 3 weeks and is going to operate them out of a strip up near Shepparton. He seemed like he was full of shlt.......... anyone heard of anything like this??????
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Just out of curiosity with the reoccurring Tracker chestnut Wunwing, who would be buying the aircraft, who would be paying for the refurb and modifications and who would you have operating them? As an aviation industry we have companies that have invested heavily in aircraft, facilities and crew.
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bellsux
Why are the Trackers a "chestnut"? The Mac' Dictionary defines a chestnut
among other things as a stale joke or anecdote".I assume that is what you think the conversion of the Trackers is?
As far as the industry having big investments I couldn't agree with you more. By definition any transport mode including aviation has big investments. If you are referring to the fire supression part of aviation then I suggest that no one has the monopoly on that.If you or anyone has large investments in equipment that has no other use than fire supression without firm contracts or commitments then that is bad business.You appear to be saying as have others, that the current operators don't want competition.
Like most threads that grow and in this case the thread is not all that big, read all the posts before commenting.The thread was started because of the Vic government bringing in a DC10.That shows that at least one level of Government is willing to spend additional money on large firebombers.What I am saying is that I, among others believe that that money would be better spent on a number of resident larger fire bombers. This is how the rest of the world functions.I don't understand why we are different. Fires are fires no matter what language we speak or what direction the bathwater goes down the sink.
As far as the Trackers I am aware of at least 2 airwork operators, currently not in the firebombing business, who are interested in some Tracker aircraft for firebombing. Since all 11 are currently for sale I guess we will soon see if its a genuine interest or not.
As far as the suitability of the Trackers for conversion, the number used overseas would indicate that they are suitable for the purpose including Eucalypt fires. Having said that, clearly there is a move to bigger units, with Conair converting to CV580s including 2 recently ex Australian aircraft, Airspray to L188s and Aerounion to Orions.
For converting Trackers, there appears to be 2 different conversions with the Conair Firecat the better option weight wise.Given the skill level here I don't see why those conversions couldn't be done under license here. by existing companies who already have a large industry investment in equipmentand skills.
Wunwing
Why are the Trackers a "chestnut"? The Mac' Dictionary defines a chestnut
among other things as a stale joke or anecdote".I assume that is what you think the conversion of the Trackers is?
As far as the industry having big investments I couldn't agree with you more. By definition any transport mode including aviation has big investments. If you are referring to the fire supression part of aviation then I suggest that no one has the monopoly on that.If you or anyone has large investments in equipment that has no other use than fire supression without firm contracts or commitments then that is bad business.You appear to be saying as have others, that the current operators don't want competition.
Like most threads that grow and in this case the thread is not all that big, read all the posts before commenting.The thread was started because of the Vic government bringing in a DC10.That shows that at least one level of Government is willing to spend additional money on large firebombers.What I am saying is that I, among others believe that that money would be better spent on a number of resident larger fire bombers. This is how the rest of the world functions.I don't understand why we are different. Fires are fires no matter what language we speak or what direction the bathwater goes down the sink.
As far as the Trackers I am aware of at least 2 airwork operators, currently not in the firebombing business, who are interested in some Tracker aircraft for firebombing. Since all 11 are currently for sale I guess we will soon see if its a genuine interest or not.
As far as the suitability of the Trackers for conversion, the number used overseas would indicate that they are suitable for the purpose including Eucalypt fires. Having said that, clearly there is a move to bigger units, with Conair converting to CV580s including 2 recently ex Australian aircraft, Airspray to L188s and Aerounion to Orions.
For converting Trackers, there appears to be 2 different conversions with the Conair Firecat the better option weight wise.Given the skill level here I don't see why those conversions couldn't be done under license here. by existing companies who already have a large industry investment in equipmentand skills.
Wunwing
Last edited by Wunwing; 17th Dec 2009 at 02:26.
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I have read the arguments for and against over the pages and have kept an open mind but still don't believe it is a good option. Personally I do think they are an old joke compared to an AT802 and belong either on a pole outside the RSL, a museum or better still, recycled into a beer can. My questions still remain unanswered. As these airframes have been for sale for quite a considerable time one could easily assume that it is not a cost effective option.
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The Conair Firecat Turbo carries 3300 L, only 200 L more than the AT 802Fs that Vic DSE has already contracted. Leave the Trackers as gate guards.
AT Driver
AT Driver
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I don't understand why we are different. Fires are fires no matter what language we speak or what direction the bathwater goes down the sink.
Evertonian
Very true max...and then there's a fire that changes everything you thought you knew about a fire in your local patch patch.
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Here it is.....
On 15th December 2009 CASA Instrument EX108/09 was released that relates to Conduct of Aerial Application (Firebombing) Operations by DC10 Aircraft Reg No. N`7085, SN 47957 by Agfire Aviation......
Here's the link to the DC10 Supertanker that's obviously on its way....
Welcome to 10 Tanker Air Carrier
My question is....how are they going to fill the tank up with the 12000ltrs once it has been deployed? Have to go back to an airport I'd think as I can't see this thing scooping along a lake etc to scoop up water....
No doubt....this'll be some pretty interesting stuff to keep an eye out for...
Stiky
On 15th December 2009 CASA Instrument EX108/09 was released that relates to Conduct of Aerial Application (Firebombing) Operations by DC10 Aircraft Reg No. N`7085, SN 47957 by Agfire Aviation......
Here's the link to the DC10 Supertanker that's obviously on its way....
Welcome to 10 Tanker Air Carrier
My question is....how are they going to fill the tank up with the 12000ltrs once it has been deployed? Have to go back to an airport I'd think as I can't see this thing scooping along a lake etc to scoop up water....
No doubt....this'll be some pretty interesting stuff to keep an eye out for...
Stiky
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They claim 30 minute turn around (Fuel/retardent load) and 45 minutes to anywhere in the state. And that's 48,000 litres or 12,000 US gals.
Last edited by Super Cecil; 21st Dec 2009 at 00:53.
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Thanks for that Cec....my mistake...you're right...12000US Gal...that's not the only error I made
the correct registration for the DC10 to which the CASA Instrument relates is N17085 (typo on my part their earlier...) .Oh the shame....
Still though, it does make me wonder where they're going to operate from because that refill / turnaround rate is still a big call in anyone's terms given the size of that aircraft.....
I just checked the Sydney Airport Message Board Forum (type in the Rego..) the DC10 is here...
Its route here was So California Logistics (KVCV) - Kona Itl (PHKO) - Pago Pago (NSTU) then avalon. From its logs on all its stops it travelled at FL280.
"10 Tanker Air Carrier" DC-10 - Sydney Airport Message Board
Apparently it's using Bomber 911 or similar callsign and was last seen in the sky down in Victoria (probably out of Avalon..) on the 18th December...anyone seen it yet?????
Stiky
the correct registration for the DC10 to which the CASA Instrument relates is N17085 (typo on my part their earlier...) .Oh the shame....Still though, it does make me wonder where they're going to operate from because that refill / turnaround rate is still a big call in anyone's terms given the size of that aircraft.....
I just checked the Sydney Airport Message Board Forum (type in the Rego..) the DC10 is here...
Its route here was So California Logistics (KVCV) - Kona Itl (PHKO) - Pago Pago (NSTU) then avalon. From its logs on all its stops it travelled at FL280.
"10 Tanker Air Carrier" DC-10 - Sydney Airport Message Board
Apparently it's using Bomber 911 or similar callsign and was last seen in the sky down in Victoria (probably out of Avalon..) on the 18th December...anyone seen it yet?????
Stiky
Last edited by Stikybeke; 21st Dec 2009 at 02:23. Reason: Information Update
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601 et al
Some of the fires inthe West Coast of Calfornia and a lot around the Med are Eucalypts. Using large aircraft seems to be considered the norm there. Try and drag up video of the Canadairs fighting the resulting scrub fire in Greece after the Helios crash. They sure look like Eucalypts to me. Hence my comments about bathwater etc.
I've watched from nearby large firebombers in action in LA with Eucalypts burning and yes the fire was extinguished with the help of Trackers, a DC6 and a couple of Orions.
Wunwing
Some of the fires inthe West Coast of Calfornia and a lot around the Med are Eucalypts. Using large aircraft seems to be considered the norm there. Try and drag up video of the Canadairs fighting the resulting scrub fire in Greece after the Helios crash. They sure look like Eucalypts to me. Hence my comments about bathwater etc.
I've watched from nearby large firebombers in action in LA with Eucalypts burning and yes the fire was extinguished with the help of Trackers, a DC6 and a couple of Orions.
Wunwing
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Must admit the Cl415 looks good, if interested in something bigger (lo/hi mix?) then the Japanese US-2 might be a good option - esp if federally funded (air force? - they use the same engines as a C-130J)
The US-2 Amphibian Aircraft - Operations in large-scale fire disasters | ShinMaywa Industries, Ltd.
http://www.shinmaywa.co.jp/english/n...f/09-02-19.pdf
I must admit personally I like the russian be-200 especially with RR engines but bit worried about ongoing support and maint.
The US-2 Amphibian Aircraft - Operations in large-scale fire disasters | ShinMaywa Industries, Ltd.
http://www.shinmaywa.co.jp/english/n...f/09-02-19.pdf
I must admit personally I like the russian be-200 especially with RR engines but bit worried about ongoing support and maint.
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When pointing out that large air-tankers are used overseas, it's also worthwhile noting that these same overseas areas still have destructive fires.
In California, for instance, we have a state with roughly the same land area as the state of Victoria, and a GDP which is the equivalent of the whole of Australia. Maybe they can afford more resources than any one Australian state.
Yet for all this, of the 20 largest fires in California's recorded history, over half have occurred during the last ten years.
http://www.fire.ca.gov/communication...s/20LACRES.pdf
It'd be interesting to see more detailed stats, and we can happily speculate why the last 10 years has seen so many large fires in California.... but the one thing it does not demonstrate is that the Americans are vastly more succesful than we are in the prevention of destructive fires. Not so much that we look stupid for not imitating them.
In California, for instance, we have a state with roughly the same land area as the state of Victoria, and a GDP which is the equivalent of the whole of Australia. Maybe they can afford more resources than any one Australian state.
Yet for all this, of the 20 largest fires in California's recorded history, over half have occurred during the last ten years.
http://www.fire.ca.gov/communication...s/20LACRES.pdf
It'd be interesting to see more detailed stats, and we can happily speculate why the last 10 years has seen so many large fires in California.... but the one thing it does not demonstrate is that the Americans are vastly more succesful than we are in the prevention of destructive fires. Not so much that we look stupid for not imitating them.
In California, for instance, we have a state with roughly the same land area as the state of Victoria, and a GDP which is the equivalent of the whole of Australia. Maybe they can afford more resources than any one Australian state...
Schwarzenegger Would Close 220 State Parks To Cut Deficit