New Water Bomber for Victoria
Evertonian
The best use for a DC10/747 would be in creating fire breaks. Otherwise, we'd need the fire to burn in a straight line for them to be most effective.
I agree with earlier posts regarding amphibious aircraft, there's just not enough lakes & rivers they can use. As for Port Philip Bay, well, who wants to tell a Farmer that they just dropped 20,000lts of sea water on their land?
Personally, I think our chopper pilots do a sterling job, all things considered and you cannot underestimate their accuracy when compared to fixed wing solutions.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I agree with earlier posts regarding amphibious aircraft, there's just not enough lakes & rivers they can use. As for Port Philip Bay, well, who wants to tell a Farmer that they just dropped 20,000lts of sea water on their land?
Personally, I think our chopper pilots do a sterling job, all things considered and you cannot underestimate their accuracy when compared to fixed wing solutions.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SthrnNSW
Age: 60
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Try this for an exercise.
This time last week, we were working a fire SE of Mathoura.
35°51'8.33"S
144°56'50.83"E
For those who don't know the area, it's floodplain occupied by the world's largest forest of River Redgum. It's also got a lot of reed or cane-grass beds that the locals estimate have fine-fuel loads of up to 100t/ha. We were running three ATs off the Deniliquin strip, on about 25-minutes turnaround.
Would anyone care to whistle up an online map and nominate a spot that'd be suitable for scooping?
Double-Wasp makes a very valid point in saying that we need to distinguish between the use of short term retardants (Water and foam, effectiveness limited to 20 minutes on a 40c day) and long-term retardants such as Phoscheck. Short-term retardants are of very limited use if we don't have people on the ground.
This time last week, we were working a fire SE of Mathoura.
35°51'8.33"S
144°56'50.83"E
For those who don't know the area, it's floodplain occupied by the world's largest forest of River Redgum. It's also got a lot of reed or cane-grass beds that the locals estimate have fine-fuel loads of up to 100t/ha. We were running three ATs off the Deniliquin strip, on about 25-minutes turnaround.
Would anyone care to whistle up an online map and nominate a spot that'd be suitable for scooping?
Double-Wasp makes a very valid point in saying that we need to distinguish between the use of short term retardants (Water and foam, effectiveness limited to 20 minutes on a 40c day) and long-term retardants such as Phoscheck. Short-term retardants are of very limited use if we don't have people on the ground.
Scoopers and Super Scoopers can operate successfully with land based stop and go replenishment. Air Tractors and baby choppers etc are like fighting a house fire with a garden hose. The real issue that is lost is that the vested interests want only a simple solution. Aerial fire fighting requires various levels of appliances and attack methods.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SthrnNSW
Age: 60
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Comparing the Scoopers with JetRangers is pointless. No-one is arguing that the two perform the same work.
Comparing a '415 on a 20+ minute turnaround to a Huey with a 1400 litre bucket on a 2 minute turnaround ..... is a far more reasonable situation in realworld firefighting.
Going back to the original topic, we should ask what the Canadairs would bring to the party that we (or Victoria) hasn't already got.
High productivity aircraft operating off open water sources close to the fire? Yep, got that covered with the Aircrane and multiple helitacks.
Flexible fixed-wing capacity capable of operating off agricultural strips and laying long-term retardant line, or first-attack or fresh lightning strike. Yep, ATs and Dromaders.
What I expect (and granted, i cannot say that I've worked with machines of this capacity) that a large airtanker will do is add the capacity to lay a retardant line of significant length in one pass. This is can be used to limit the forward spread of a fire which has already begun to develop, but is not running hard. It can also be used to provide a break along the edge of a township that is threateded by fire. It won't stop a hard-running fire, but will reduce the radiant heat faced by fire crews and residents attempting to defend homes.
The '415s do not have this capacity. You can't scoop long-term retardant, it has to be premixed and pumped on board. Your capacity to reload is limited by your ability to position batching and pumping equipment to a convenient airstrip. If it takes 90 minutes to physically transport the equipment and set it up, then that is the minimum time taken before your small or medium capacity aircraft can commence to reload after its first drop.
As for "garden hoses"? If we can't do something with 3 ag planes carring a combines 7500-9000 litres, it's hardly likely that a '215 or '415 carrying a maximum of 6100 litres is going to do more when operating off the same strip and under the same conditions. The other nice thing about the ag aircraft is that we can hire them on a "call when needed" basis, which means that we don't have to pay their costs during the quiet seasons. We DO have a "vested interest".... The interest of the taxpayers who have to fund the exercise.
Comparing a '415 on a 20+ minute turnaround to a Huey with a 1400 litre bucket on a 2 minute turnaround ..... is a far more reasonable situation in realworld firefighting.
Going back to the original topic, we should ask what the Canadairs would bring to the party that we (or Victoria) hasn't already got.
High productivity aircraft operating off open water sources close to the fire? Yep, got that covered with the Aircrane and multiple helitacks.
Flexible fixed-wing capacity capable of operating off agricultural strips and laying long-term retardant line, or first-attack or fresh lightning strike. Yep, ATs and Dromaders.
What I expect (and granted, i cannot say that I've worked with machines of this capacity) that a large airtanker will do is add the capacity to lay a retardant line of significant length in one pass. This is can be used to limit the forward spread of a fire which has already begun to develop, but is not running hard. It can also be used to provide a break along the edge of a township that is threateded by fire. It won't stop a hard-running fire, but will reduce the radiant heat faced by fire crews and residents attempting to defend homes.
The '415s do not have this capacity. You can't scoop long-term retardant, it has to be premixed and pumped on board. Your capacity to reload is limited by your ability to position batching and pumping equipment to a convenient airstrip. If it takes 90 minutes to physically transport the equipment and set it up, then that is the minimum time taken before your small or medium capacity aircraft can commence to reload after its first drop.
As for "garden hoses"? If we can't do something with 3 ag planes carring a combines 7500-9000 litres, it's hardly likely that a '215 or '415 carrying a maximum of 6100 litres is going to do more when operating off the same strip and under the same conditions. The other nice thing about the ag aircraft is that we can hire them on a "call when needed" basis, which means that we don't have to pay their costs during the quiet seasons. We DO have a "vested interest".... The interest of the taxpayers who have to fund the exercise.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: of my pants is unknown
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Farmer,
I agree that for those particular fires the Canadairs would not have been able to scoop however they can then be loaded with long term and dump same as any other tanker. Much like how the Fireboss can be used but with a bigger punch. The difference is when the fire does have a suitable source near to it then the other side of the effectiveness would be available.
In Canada in Alberta, NWT, Saskatchewan and British Columbia they use a combination approach of large and small longterm tankers, scoopers, helicopters and ground crews to fight fires. They have the tools available to pick what piece of equipment is most suited. I believe that without having both scoopers and larger tankers we are limiting ourselves needlessly.
While 415 is expensive it could be used as a longterm retardant delivery platform or short term or both in the same mission. However if the cost is too prohibitive maybe a combination of Firebosses and Convair 580's would result in the most "bang for the buck".
Good discussion so far
DW
I agree that for those particular fires the Canadairs would not have been able to scoop however they can then be loaded with long term and dump same as any other tanker. Much like how the Fireboss can be used but with a bigger punch. The difference is when the fire does have a suitable source near to it then the other side of the effectiveness would be available.
In Canada in Alberta, NWT, Saskatchewan and British Columbia they use a combination approach of large and small longterm tankers, scoopers, helicopters and ground crews to fight fires. They have the tools available to pick what piece of equipment is most suited. I believe that without having both scoopers and larger tankers we are limiting ourselves needlessly.
While 415 is expensive it could be used as a longterm retardant delivery platform or short term or both in the same mission. However if the cost is too prohibitive maybe a combination of Firebosses and Convair 580's would result in the most "bang for the buck".
Good discussion so far
DW
Join Date: May 2004
Location: of my pants is unknown
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Farmer you posted just before I did,
I would like to add that these larger aircraft and scoopers should not be at the expense of the smaller tankers and helicopters. They are all needed.
I would bet some solid money that the Aircrane Helo crews are paid throughout the season whether they fly or not. Meaning there is a precedent for crews to be on call all season long cool or hot. A couple guys sitting around on a base somewhere should be able to be accounted for in someone's budget.
As far as the infrastucture goes sure it might take 90 min to set up a remote base but that is just logistics which will always get better with time. There should be some set up already for the ag aircraft its just a matter of making sure strip length is appropriate for the bigger boys.
Definately no longer talking DC10 and 747 they are pretty much there to put shows on for the media.
DW
I would like to add that these larger aircraft and scoopers should not be at the expense of the smaller tankers and helicopters. They are all needed.
I would bet some solid money that the Aircrane Helo crews are paid throughout the season whether they fly or not. Meaning there is a precedent for crews to be on call all season long cool or hot. A couple guys sitting around on a base somewhere should be able to be accounted for in someone's budget.
As far as the infrastucture goes sure it might take 90 min to set up a remote base but that is just logistics which will always get better with time. There should be some set up already for the ag aircraft its just a matter of making sure strip length is appropriate for the bigger boys.
Definately no longer talking DC10 and 747 they are pretty much there to put shows on for the media.
DW
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SthrnNSW
Age: 60
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DW.
No argument on the requirement for a mix of tools to do a variety of jobs. I'm a believer. The issue that we face at the moment is $$, or rather,, the lack of them.
We have an "interesting" funding system in NSW.
The contract aircraft - the ones that we pay to sit ready all season - are paid for out of the Service's budget, up to a point. This is the same budget with which we train and equip firefighters on the ground, build infrastructure, and keep the shop running. From memory, that budget has increased more than 3-fold over the last 15 years, and yet there are still major deficiencies. Aviation has to work hard to justify any extra expenditure.
Declared Emergencies are funded directly by the State Government, which pays for running costs, repairs, consumables and hire of extras through its emergency fund. This is used for hiring the call-when-needed fleet, but can't be accessed to buy or hire aircraft for use outside the specified area of the Declaration.
Gotta go, I have a contractor coming,,,, but please keep in mind the other demands on the Government's wallet. Firefighting is only a vote-winner for a short period after a big season. After that, the voters tend to lose interest and politicians lose incentive to fund us properly. My brigade has no shed, and half the trucks that we should....
Peter
In Canada in Alberta, NWT, Saskatchewan and British Columbia they use a combination approach of large and small longterm tankers, scoopers, helicopters and ground crews to fight fires. They have the tools available to pick what piece of equipment is most suited. I believe that without having both scoopers and larger tankers we are limiting ourselves needlessly.
We have an "interesting" funding system in NSW.
The contract aircraft - the ones that we pay to sit ready all season - are paid for out of the Service's budget, up to a point. This is the same budget with which we train and equip firefighters on the ground, build infrastructure, and keep the shop running. From memory, that budget has increased more than 3-fold over the last 15 years, and yet there are still major deficiencies. Aviation has to work hard to justify any extra expenditure.
Declared Emergencies are funded directly by the State Government, which pays for running costs, repairs, consumables and hire of extras through its emergency fund. This is used for hiring the call-when-needed fleet, but can't be accessed to buy or hire aircraft for use outside the specified area of the Declaration.
Gotta go, I have a contractor coming,,,, but please keep in mind the other demands on the Government's wallet. Firefighting is only a vote-winner for a short period after a big season. After that, the voters tend to lose interest and politicians lose incentive to fund us properly. My brigade has no shed, and half the trucks that we should....
Peter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the rest of the world helicopters are used as initial attack, finding spot fires or lighting strikes and extinguishing the blaze before the fire gets to large.
This means multiple teams all over the country with a medium to large bucket (212 or AS350 ect) and a team of fire fighters who winch in to target the small blaze. Then let the heavy bomber create the breaks for the larger fronts.
What does out initial attack consist of a couple of guys in a jetranger mapping out where the small puffs of smoke are...
I am no expert but I am sure there is a use for professionally trained crews like this for initial attack and search and rescue provided by the fed's at a national level. I think that might upset a few of the chiefs out there.... maybe one day this issue will not be an arena for political grand standing
This means multiple teams all over the country with a medium to large bucket (212 or AS350 ect) and a team of fire fighters who winch in to target the small blaze. Then let the heavy bomber create the breaks for the larger fronts.
What does out initial attack consist of a couple of guys in a jetranger mapping out where the small puffs of smoke are...
I am no expert but I am sure there is a use for professionally trained crews like this for initial attack and search and rescue provided by the fed's at a national level. I think that might upset a few of the chiefs out there.... maybe one day this issue will not be an arena for political grand standing
Evertonian
ik978, you're talking about Hot Shots or Smoke Jumpers I think. I don't think there are many agencies in Oz that want people to jump into the path of a fire with a rake hoe & chainsaw.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SthrnNSW
Age: 60
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lk978.
In NSW we commonly use detection flights on a particularly bad day or after a lightning front has come through. Usually a fixed-wing due to cost considerations and the ability to cover more country than is possible with a Jetty.
First-attack with aircraft is often undertaken with a prepositioned AT802. We keep the contract aircraft on standby in the areas of greatest risk. (according to the weather gurus and the lightning tracker systems..) Particularly if there's been a little rain with the storm, it often works to paint the smoker and the ground around it red, (Phoscheck) with the aim of keeping it quiet until a crew can get in.
As a lot of the rough, timbered country is managed by either State Forests on National Parks, these services do have trained remote-area crews that can either hike in, or winch in from a 'copter. The RFS also has RAFT crews, but we deploy them by winch less often.
As Buster said, there's no great enthusiasm here for parachute crews. If there's a big enough hole for them to jump into, we can land a heli in there.
What does out initial attack consist of a couple of guys in a jetranger mapping out where the small puffs of smoke are...
First-attack with aircraft is often undertaken with a prepositioned AT802. We keep the contract aircraft on standby in the areas of greatest risk. (according to the weather gurus and the lightning tracker systems..) Particularly if there's been a little rain with the storm, it often works to paint the smoker and the ground around it red, (Phoscheck) with the aim of keeping it quiet until a crew can get in.
As a lot of the rough, timbered country is managed by either State Forests on National Parks, these services do have trained remote-area crews that can either hike in, or winch in from a 'copter. The RFS also has RAFT crews, but we deploy them by winch less often.
As Buster said, there's no great enthusiasm here for parachute crews. If there's a big enough hole for them to jump into, we can land a heli in there.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the info guys, I see that we do have some capabilities like we see in other parts of the world but just not at that level.
My biggest problem with our policies is that we tend to think we are so different from everywhere else, if its not our high terrain (laughable compred to Canada) its the bush is too ruggered (have a look at califoria).
" I don't think there are many agencies in Oz that want people to jump into the path of a fire with a rake hoe & chainsaw"
I understand this comment but why not? should we just hire in the crews from the north each season? that would make sense wouldnt it. I believe they are only attackig small fires that hasnt formed a front.
FarmerPete Would having paid highly trained crews help? (i understand that the volunteers are highly trained, but like the difference between army trained and SAS trained)
My biggest problem with our policies is that we tend to think we are so different from everywhere else, if its not our high terrain (laughable compred to Canada) its the bush is too ruggered (have a look at califoria).
" I don't think there are many agencies in Oz that want people to jump into the path of a fire with a rake hoe & chainsaw"
I understand this comment but why not? should we just hire in the crews from the north each season? that would make sense wouldnt it. I believe they are only attackig small fires that hasnt formed a front.
FarmerPete Would having paid highly trained crews help? (i understand that the volunteers are highly trained, but like the difference between army trained and SAS trained)
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No reason why Avalon couldn't become a totally dedicated fire fighting airport, rather than 'mix it' at Tullermarine, is there? Oh yes, I forgot, Lindsey Fox!
Thanks for the vested advice Farmer Brown. The real point is you need lots of assets to fight fires. Early intervention is a policy practiced in Canada but seemingly not here for lack of equipment, valiant manpower or money. No one decries the efforts of the boys and girls who give their all here but rather we need a bigger "stick" to add to the armory.
In Canada the AT's replaced B-26's. My friend who has flown firebombers for >25 years tells me that the -26's would fly when AT's are blown out with high winds. The 215/415's always operate in teams so it is not one replacing multiple smaller machines..
In Canada the AT's replaced B-26's. My friend who has flown firebombers for >25 years tells me that the -26's would fly when AT's are blown out with high winds. The 215/415's always operate in teams so it is not one replacing multiple smaller machines..
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SthrnNSW
Age: 60
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lk978
It's partly to do with OH&S. Too many of the crews lost or burnovers experienced have not been from large fires (people get the hint that those are dangerous) but small or benign-seeming fires that have undergone rapid acceleration due to unforeseen changes in local weather. CSIRO research has resulted in SOP that you don't go close to fires without having a refuge area within a specified distance. Whether the issue has been over-done, is not something that I should comment on here... partly due to an ongoing court-case resulting from the Canberra fires a few years ago.
There's also a perception that the Americans are a little more gung-ho than we are, and almost expect to take the occasional casualty. Whether this is true or not, others will know, but you only need to look at the Coronial inquiry into the Linton fire in Vic to understand why managers get nervous about risk.
It's a little outside my area of expertise, so my comments should not be taken as gospel.. RAFT is a great tool to have available, but must be used with caution. Exactly how much training is required is not for me to say, but the pros - Forestry and NPWS (Sparks and Wildfires 
) are pretty good, and also fit. No reason why volunteers cannot achieve the same skill and fitness levels, but few have the time available.
I like a good early attack, as the longer that we leave a fire burning, the more likely it is to come out and bite us on a bad day.... but sometimes it's also more appropriate to just put a ring around it and burn an area out. At least that way we can have good, solid containment lines. A D8 beats a rake-hoe for making firebreaks, every time IMHO.
Regards.... Peter
<edited to add> It's also worth remembering that a severe lightning front can result in a couple of hundred ignitions. That's a lot of crews if you want to deal with them that way.
Pete
" I don't think there are many agencies in Oz that want people to jump into the path of a fire with a rake hoe & chainsaw"
I understand this comment but why not? .... I believe they are only attacking small fires that hasnt formed a front.
I understand this comment but why not? .... I believe they are only attacking small fires that hasnt formed a front.
There's also a perception that the Americans are a little more gung-ho than we are, and almost expect to take the occasional casualty. Whether this is true or not, others will know, but you only need to look at the Coronial inquiry into the Linton fire in Vic to understand why managers get nervous about risk.
FarmerPete Would having paid highly trained crews help? (i understand that the volunteers are highly trained, but like the difference between army trained and SAS trained)
) are pretty good, and also fit. No reason why volunteers cannot achieve the same skill and fitness levels, but few have the time available.I like a good early attack, as the longer that we leave a fire burning, the more likely it is to come out and bite us on a bad day.... but sometimes it's also more appropriate to just put a ring around it and burn an area out. At least that way we can have good, solid containment lines. A D8 beats a rake-hoe for making firebreaks, every time IMHO.
Regards.... Peter
<edited to add> It's also worth remembering that a severe lightning front can result in a couple of hundred ignitions. That's a lot of crews if you want to deal with them that way.
Pete
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SthrnNSW
Age: 60
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the vested advice Farmer Brown. The real point is you need lots of assets to fight fires. Early intervention is a policy practiced in Canada but seemingly not here for lack of equipment, valiant manpower or money. No one decries the efforts of the boys and girls who give their all here but rather we need a bigger "stick" to add to the armory.
I only know that in NSW, the budget is determined by a levy on insurance. There comes a point where spending extra money becomes wasteful because the return is too low. To be hard-nosed about it, sometimes it is cheaper to replant and rebuild than it is to spend huge amounts of money on methods of firefighting that show diminishing returns. As I said before, both roads and health systems are underfunded, and this costs us far more lives than fire does.
Fire is not a sacred cow, and must be kept in perspective.
Oh, and by the way. Farmer Brown kept cattle. Yr Obed Svnt is a sheep and grain cocky, who is so passionate about quick response that he keeps a private fire unit parked outside his back door all summer.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Darwin, Australia
Age: 53
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
3 Posts
FarmerPete,
I had heard whispers that there would be firebosses coming into the country, but I hadn't heard that they were here yet. One comment I would make after looking at the www.firebossllc.com website the other day is that the fireboss requires about 300m more length to work than the Canadairs (both actual scoop and 50' to 50'). I'd love to have a play in a fireboss, but with no plans to fly ag its never going to happen.
I do agree that unless you are using the 415's for scooping they become a poor cousin compared to 802's and the like - escpecially when you consider they lift 1 1/2 ton less from land than they can scoop from water. Carrying around the weight of flying boat hull when operating as a land aircraft is inefficient. At least if the fireboss is like the caravan it can be switched between standard and amphibian gear overnight.
What would be very interesting is a comparison between the cost of operating a 415 to say three firebosses (I suspect that would provide similar throughput).
With all due respect, as a seaplane pilot I would not accept a risk assement performed on a body of water that I was planning to operate off by anyone other than an experienced seaplane pilot. I work in open water where we have to regularly work around boats, where it is very rare to find even very experienced skippers that understand our requirements.
What is really sad is seeing the political budgetry influences on the selection of the size and type of assets used for firefighting, especially when it distorts the selection away from a more effective system for the same actual investment. And then there is the question about how we value life.
I'm a firm beleiver in hit em early and hit em hard. I am also a firefighter in Queensland (auxiliary) and at times I wish I was back in Victoria (volunteer) where we would use dozers and 4WD tankers where up here we use knapsacks and rakehoes, and be home in a fraction of the time. However on the same token I much prefer the fire behaviour up here.
I had heard whispers that there would be firebosses coming into the country, but I hadn't heard that they were here yet. One comment I would make after looking at the www.firebossllc.com website the other day is that the fireboss requires about 300m more length to work than the Canadairs (both actual scoop and 50' to 50'). I'd love to have a play in a fireboss, but with no plans to fly ag its never going to happen.
I do agree that unless you are using the 415's for scooping they become a poor cousin compared to 802's and the like - escpecially when you consider they lift 1 1/2 ton less from land than they can scoop from water. Carrying around the weight of flying boat hull when operating as a land aircraft is inefficient. At least if the fireboss is like the caravan it can be switched between standard and amphibian gear overnight.
What would be very interesting is a comparison between the cost of operating a 415 to say three firebosses (I suspect that would provide similar throughput).
With all due respect, as a seaplane pilot I would not accept a risk assement performed on a body of water that I was planning to operate off by anyone other than an experienced seaplane pilot. I work in open water where we have to regularly work around boats, where it is very rare to find even very experienced skippers that understand our requirements.
What is really sad is seeing the political budgetry influences on the selection of the size and type of assets used for firefighting, especially when it distorts the selection away from a more effective system for the same actual investment. And then there is the question about how we value life.
I'm a firm beleiver in hit em early and hit em hard. I am also a firefighter in Queensland (auxiliary) and at times I wish I was back in Victoria (volunteer) where we would use dozers and 4WD tankers where up here we use knapsacks and rakehoes, and be home in a fraction of the time. However on the same token I much prefer the fire behaviour up here.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SthrnNSW
Age: 60
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Werbil...
Point taken, very happily. This is about as good as it gets on the Murray until you get closer to SA. Bit hard to see what's under the surface, isn't it? That is a small tinny, BTW.
It is. But it's the same in all walks of life. I'm wary of claiming exceptions. Because of the emergency funbding regiome, the RFS is actually slightly less concerned about cost-effectiveness than was DSE-Vic when I trained with them.
You mean like this? 
I like the way that the Forestry boys do fire-breaks. No mucking about here.
Cheers............ Pete
With all due respect, as a seaplane pilot I would not accept a risk assement performed on a body of water that I was planning to operate off by anyone other than an experienced seaplane pilot.
What is really sad is seeing the political budgetry influences on the selection of the size and type of assets used for firefighting, especially when it distorts the selection away from a more effective system for the same actual investment. And then there is the question about how we value life.
I'm a firm beleiver in hit em early and hit em hard. I am also a firefighter in Queensland (auxiliary) and at times I wish I was back in Victoria (volunteer) where we would use dozers ....
I like the way that the Forestry boys do fire-breaks. No mucking about here.
Cheers............ Pete
Evertonian
I understand this comment but why not? should we just hire in the crews from the north each season? that would make sense wouldnt it. I believe they are only attackig small fires that hasnt formed a front.
I think I mentioned on the other thread that I had met the guy who developed the fire curtains we use on our Tankers (and I can readily vouch for!). His Brother was a Smoke Jumper & died on Storm King Mountain in 1994. Now, there were many circumstances & stuff ups that contributed to this tragedy, but basically, these guys & girls have little in the way of protection if they get caught. The only survival PPE they have is a collapsible shelter they carry with them & need to deploy when in danger. The shelter stops radiant heat, but not direct flame, and you need to be out of the wind to successfully deploy them to a suitable standard. Rarely will it be still during the conditions you need to deploy them in.
Remember, if the jumpers get caught, someones got to go in to help them anyway.
These portable shelters are not recommended or supplied to any agency in Oz that I am aware of, as they possibly provide a false sense of security. (There's probably a myriad of other reasons I'm not aware of too!)
Anyway, you are right in saying that they can, and do, knock out small, remote fires, but I think the agencies here believe the risk is too great.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While we in OZ go around in circles on this subject and as usual try to find political solutions for engineering problems,the rest of the World gets on with real solutions.
I note on the Freight Dog forum that there is a thread running on the future of Atlantic Cargo's 6 L188s. Its suggested that they are to be used in Canada for fire bombers. Given that some of Airsprays fleet are ex Atlantic, its quite probable.
But hey here in Australia we're different, we don't need aircraft like Airspray's long liners do we, a bit of spin here and there and we are OK (until next time)???
Wunwing
I note on the Freight Dog forum that there is a thread running on the future of Atlantic Cargo's 6 L188s. Its suggested that they are to be used in Canada for fire bombers. Given that some of Airsprays fleet are ex Atlantic, its quite probable.
But hey here in Australia we're different, we don't need aircraft like Airspray's long liners do we, a bit of spin here and there and we are OK (until next time)???
Wunwing