Para Dropping & Pay in GA
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Gold,
You're right , it's a really complex situation , it is a private operation in the eyes of the law requiring a PPL and there are other similar operations like glider clubs .
Pilots are a commodity whether we like it or not , if there's an oversupply and people are fighting to stay in the race to get a full time job and they can afford to live by other means they will fly for nothing as they see it as a way of staying current and building hours until something better comes along. And as a 'commodity' if there was a shortage of pilots and the drop zones had a choice of paying pilots or shutting down ops they would pay.
The bigger drop zones pay because they have expensive equipment and high work load for the pilots and to get the skills they want they can't get it for free. Some smaller drop zones pay because they think it's fair that everyone makes a dollar. There will always be those that will want to get their pilots for nothing.
If you have tried all other avenues for real employment 'up north' but you are way short of hours and if you can get 200 to 500hrs under your belt in 12 months dropping meat bombs without pay and if the alternative was letting your training and currency lapse and it was all for nothing I'd do it. After you've done your 12 months go looking again for a job.
When I flew skydivers 20 yrs ago nobody criticised me for flying at the DZ for free , I also ferried aircraft , met farmers at outer airports and guided them through the lane of entry to Parafield , drove the fuel truck (got paid for that) and did whatever I could to get different experiences. Meat bombing is a good skills builder also.
Everybody's situation is different and there's not always jobs 'up north' or we have a wife and kids at home and are not in a position to just pack bags into the back of the wagon and head off looking for a job. Pilots are supposed to be able to make command decisions and this sort of call is a command decision for your own circumstances.
--
You're right , it's a really complex situation , it is a private operation in the eyes of the law requiring a PPL and there are other similar operations like glider clubs .
Pilots are a commodity whether we like it or not , if there's an oversupply and people are fighting to stay in the race to get a full time job and they can afford to live by other means they will fly for nothing as they see it as a way of staying current and building hours until something better comes along. And as a 'commodity' if there was a shortage of pilots and the drop zones had a choice of paying pilots or shutting down ops they would pay.
The bigger drop zones pay because they have expensive equipment and high work load for the pilots and to get the skills they want they can't get it for free. Some smaller drop zones pay because they think it's fair that everyone makes a dollar. There will always be those that will want to get their pilots for nothing.
If you have tried all other avenues for real employment 'up north' but you are way short of hours and if you can get 200 to 500hrs under your belt in 12 months dropping meat bombs without pay and if the alternative was letting your training and currency lapse and it was all for nothing I'd do it. After you've done your 12 months go looking again for a job.
When I flew skydivers 20 yrs ago nobody criticised me for flying at the DZ for free , I also ferried aircraft , met farmers at outer airports and guided them through the lane of entry to Parafield , drove the fuel truck (got paid for that) and did whatever I could to get different experiences. Meat bombing is a good skills builder also.
Everybody's situation is different and there's not always jobs 'up north' or we have a wife and kids at home and are not in a position to just pack bags into the back of the wagon and head off looking for a job. Pilots are supposed to be able to make command decisions and this sort of call is a command decision for your own circumstances.
--
Last edited by aseanaero; 21st Aug 2009 at 15:47.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there friendly and have killer parties!
The classic moment of the night was when a 200 litre drum exploded and flew up into the air like in a Hollywood movie and everyone wondered where it went (it was a pitch black night) and it landed with a thud behind the crowd !
Other inventions was the homemade LPG powered tennis ball bazooka that could crack a car windscreen (Kyle where are you now ?
)Things have probably calmed down over the years but more people get injured falling off balconies or trees during the parties than skydiving
Thats fine Plank,
BUT you can't be on the high horse say others are immoral and lack dignity yet only three months ago have done the same thing!!!! Paint is still a little too fresh so to speak...and you come across as living in a rather glassy house. One wonders if young WWIU would have stayed if the flying was really regular and frequent...
j3
BUT you can't be on the high horse say others are immoral and lack dignity yet only three months ago have done the same thing!!!! Paint is still a little too fresh so to speak...and you come across as living in a rather glassy house. One wonders if young WWIU would have stayed if the flying was really regular and frequent...
j3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Around
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a very interesting thread to read. Mainly because I am a pilot in Nz and it would appear from most of the posts on here are from Australian pilots due to the general gist being about working for free, or less than "Award".
Now, in good ol' NZ, we do not have an 'award' rate for our pilots. We have 'minimum wage', which is based on an hourly rate. It's $12.50/hour. We also have pilots working for less than this. "Why?" do you ask? Well, its easy. For those of us who are in a GA job with a reasonable amount of time (total, multi, ato AND ifr) it is somehow seen as a priviledge. Our bosses basically think that if we are only "on duty" for 4 hours and yet we have been working (albeit with a "rest" of 8 hours hanging around an airport terminal or somewhere just as fun with no way of getting anywhere else) for 12, we were lucky to get our 1.5 multi hours and that they are doing us a favour by giving us that....
Or we are on duty for the maximum 11 hours (ato) and yet still get paid the same as if we had only worked for 8. After 8 hours, most GA pilots in NZ are getting LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE. Most of us are in that situation. Our bosses say, "But some days you only work 6 hours, so it kinda averages out". Once again, they think they are doing us a favour.
From what I can work out, under the award rate, my boss would be forced to pay me about $40k. Which, to be honest, they can afford. But there is nothing to make them do this.
Is this going to change? No, it isn't. Because we are all to scared of losing our jobs or not getting the flying if we kick up a stink. There is ALPA, but once again, too scared to do anything cos you don't want to be "That guy" and risk not furthering your career because you were the one branded a sh%t stirrer. The guys in the Airlines are just so glad to be out of it that they push it so far from their memory that they're not gonna stand up for us either ("I survived it, so you can too, son"). So we all suffer in silence because "thats what's always happened" and "one day it will all be worth it".
Unfortunately we all b%tch and moan and get ulcers about it and it is all because of these people who work for free, and yet we do it. Don't ask me why. I cannot tell you. Maybe we all need a bullet.
Be interesting to hear from other kiwi guys/gals on this...
Sorry, it's been a long day. I feel better now, though.
Unfortunately we all b%tch and moan and get ulcers about it and it is all because of these people who work for free, and yet we do it. Don't ask me why. I cannot tell you. Maybe we all need a bullet.
Now, in good ol' NZ, we do not have an 'award' rate for our pilots. We have 'minimum wage', which is based on an hourly rate. It's $12.50/hour. We also have pilots working for less than this. "Why?" do you ask? Well, its easy. For those of us who are in a GA job with a reasonable amount of time (total, multi, ato AND ifr) it is somehow seen as a priviledge. Our bosses basically think that if we are only "on duty" for 4 hours and yet we have been working (albeit with a "rest" of 8 hours hanging around an airport terminal or somewhere just as fun with no way of getting anywhere else) for 12, we were lucky to get our 1.5 multi hours and that they are doing us a favour by giving us that....
Or we are on duty for the maximum 11 hours (ato) and yet still get paid the same as if we had only worked for 8. After 8 hours, most GA pilots in NZ are getting LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE. Most of us are in that situation. Our bosses say, "But some days you only work 6 hours, so it kinda averages out". Once again, they think they are doing us a favour.
From what I can work out, under the award rate, my boss would be forced to pay me about $40k. Which, to be honest, they can afford. But there is nothing to make them do this.
Is this going to change? No, it isn't. Because we are all to scared of losing our jobs or not getting the flying if we kick up a stink. There is ALPA, but once again, too scared to do anything cos you don't want to be "That guy" and risk not furthering your career because you were the one branded a sh%t stirrer. The guys in the Airlines are just so glad to be out of it that they push it so far from their memory that they're not gonna stand up for us either ("I survived it, so you can too, son"). So we all suffer in silence because "thats what's always happened" and "one day it will all be worth it".
Unfortunately we all b%tch and moan and get ulcers about it and it is all because of these people who work for free, and yet we do it. Don't ask me why. I cannot tell you. Maybe we all need a bullet.
Be interesting to hear from other kiwi guys/gals on this...
Sorry, it's been a long day. I feel better now, though.
Unfortunately we all b%tch and moan and get ulcers about it and it is all because of these people who work for free, and yet we do it. Don't ask me why. I cannot tell you. Maybe we all need a bullet.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: aussie
Age: 51
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hey asean.
cheers for the comments.. I am not that 500 pilot any more ... but remember it well..
I did some jump flying then and got the hours to get in the door elsewhere..had alot of fun in the process..
many years later I still do some now and then just for giggles..
when the operator tries to pay I just ask for beer instead...
guess thats not quite award either but hey.. its my life right...!
cheers for the comments.. I am not that 500 pilot any more ... but remember it well..
I did some jump flying then and got the hours to get in the door elsewhere..had alot of fun in the process..
many years later I still do some now and then just for giggles..
when the operator tries to pay I just ask for beer instead...
guess thats not quite award either but hey.. its my life right...!
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: nook in the corner
Age: 41
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NO PAY NO WORK 
As long as operator is making a profit. we deserve a cut too.
IMHO: we ought to have another or offshoot in AOPA or some union where we all can together standup against the exploitation.
United We Stand Divided we Fall.
As long as operator is making a profit. we deserve a cut too.
IMHO: we ought to have another or offshoot in AOPA or some union where we all can together standup against the exploitation.
United We Stand Divided we Fall.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hypothetical
Let's assume we have a law abiding, well run and safe skydiving op in all ways except that the owner or club committee decides to ignore the law and pays award wages to a new CPL because they think that's the right thing to do.
Tax records , copies of pay slips etc. are also kept.
For whatever reason CASA comes along and says that paying the pilot is in breach of the APF and CASA regulations as the pilot is working for hire or reward under a private operation.
Then what happens ?
While everyone likes to get recognised and rewarded for their efforts , education and training at the moment paying pilots in skydiving ops is against the law.
If a PPL was caught selling joy flights to his mates and friends and making a profit and he got nailed for it nobody would feel sorry for him as it is clearly against the regulations.
Here we have have another situation in skydiving ops in which a pilot cannot receive reward or compensation in a 'private club operation' .
Most of the posts on this thread continue to ignore this fact. The award doesn't apply to 'private' operations, and if you get paid you the pilot are in breach of the regs.
Pilots getting paid and not getting paid is partly also the result of confusion over what the law really is in respect of pilots in these operations , not just greed by the operator or club.
--
Tax records , copies of pay slips etc. are also kept.
For whatever reason CASA comes along and says that paying the pilot is in breach of the APF and CASA regulations as the pilot is working for hire or reward under a private operation.
Then what happens ?
While everyone likes to get recognised and rewarded for their efforts , education and training at the moment paying pilots in skydiving ops is against the law.
If a PPL was caught selling joy flights to his mates and friends and making a profit and he got nailed for it nobody would feel sorry for him as it is clearly against the regulations.
Here we have have another situation in skydiving ops in which a pilot cannot receive reward or compensation in a 'private club operation' .
Most of the posts on this thread continue to ignore this fact. The award doesn't apply to 'private' operations, and if you get paid you the pilot are in breach of the regs.
Pilots getting paid and not getting paid is partly also the result of confusion over what the law really is in respect of pilots in these operations , not just greed by the operator or club.
--
Last edited by aseanaero; 25th Aug 2009 at 02:17.
When you live....
Hypothetically wrong?
Aseanaero - there is nothing wrong, AFAIK, with being paid to do non-commercial operations.
There are many many pilots employed on private operations all around the world who's owners don't hold an AOC and pay their pilots award wages or better.
You are confusing the requirement to hold an AOC (i.e. run a commercial operation) with the 'not for hire or reward' limitations on a PPL. CASA would not be able to bust anyone for a breach of it's or APF regs.
UTR
There are many many pilots employed on private operations all around the world who's owners don't hold an AOC and pay their pilots award wages or better.
You are confusing the requirement to hold an AOC (i.e. run a commercial operation) with the 'not for hire or reward' limitations on a PPL. CASA would not be able to bust anyone for a breach of it's or APF regs.
UTR
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Around
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Plank- The old grey matter seems to be running a bit slow down here in this cooler wx, so in answer to your question basically, no. I thought it was one of those mysterious things that just happened, like presents from Santa or babies arriving. Now that you mention it tho, going to look into how the award came about...care to enlighten me in the mean time? Or point me in the right direction to research it?
I would have no idea how to start if one was brave enough to get the ball rolling in regards to it on this side of the ditch... The reason I say brave enough is cos I'm sure there was alot of work involved and that's the perfect time for rumours, gossip and defamation to start. Sure, the instigator is being thanked now, but what did they go through before it came law?
I would have no idea how to start if one was brave enough to get the ball rolling in regards to it on this side of the ditch... The reason I say brave enough is cos I'm sure there was alot of work involved and that's the perfect time for rumours, gossip and defamation to start. Sure, the instigator is being thanked now, but what did they go through before it came law?
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Red rocks, mountains and small fire arms
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jumpflying should be seen as a hobbie, not as work. However, you should get paid for it or the operator should pay for the classrating. At least at a commercial center if you work fulltime. However, the jumpflying itself is already rewarding enough if you fly a couple of hours purely as a hobby. And you learn alot of handflying in the process. Unusual attitudes is not very uncommon. Having guys hangin on your struts giving you the finger at 13000' and trying to follow you as you aim the nose to mother earth is priceless, especially when videotaped. You get to do a lot of cloudsurfing on the way down, beautifull views, fast short and high approaches.. You are really free as a meatbombdropper. But stay within the limits, as there have been a lot of twisted metal before you all.. And it is always the next guy who get killed because you are pulling the G's over and over again. And that is exactly why you should be paid as a pilot, so you have obligations to hang on to!
However, If I would win the lottery tomorrow, I'll be jumppilot as long as I could... for free....
However, If I would win the lottery tomorrow, I'll be jumppilot as long as I could... for free....
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And it is always the next guy who get killed because you are pulling the G's over and over again
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Red rocks, mountains and small fire arms
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ Assanearo,
Exactly, thats what I mean... There have been many accidents in skydiving where the plane gets overstressed. Thats why one should always be within the envelope.. Your left wing does not break the first time you pull 4 G's, probably also not the 6th, 20th of 99th time... Thats why it's always the next guy who has to pay for your behaviour, or vice versa... The amount of brand new shiny a/c's is not that huge in skydiving ops... Lot's of 'm have seen better days..
@ framer,
Correct, it can be very demanding. That's why one should only do so because he or she truly enjoys it (hobby). Otherwise it is a long, stressfull and dreadfull day. This does not mean that you should not get paid for it. However, don't go into jumpflying for the pecunia's...
Exactly, thats what I mean... There have been many accidents in skydiving where the plane gets overstressed. Thats why one should always be within the envelope.. Your left wing does not break the first time you pull 4 G's, probably also not the 6th, 20th of 99th time... Thats why it's always the next guy who has to pay for your behaviour, or vice versa... The amount of brand new shiny a/c's is not that huge in skydiving ops... Lot's of 'm have seen better days..
@ framer,
Correct, it can be very demanding. That's why one should only do so because he or she truly enjoys it (hobby). Otherwise it is a long, stressfull and dreadfull day. This does not mean that you should not get paid for it. However, don't go into jumpflying for the pecunia's...
Last edited by J.I.P; 12th Nov 2009 at 10:02. Reason: twice the same sentence
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Greta
Age: 67
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting thread.
Been around the DZ scene for long time. so have have seen it all i suppose when it comes to operators and how they pay their staff. The commercial side of jumping has changed greatly since the tandem concept started becoming popular around the late eighties. resort style drop zones started popping up all over the place catering for just tandems. The traditional old club theme exists only at a few Drop Zones. Amazing how the tandem masters packers the few video flyers that are left since "handcam" started, sound just like you guys. the get st##ed around just like you. not quite working for free but having the risk of losing your job to someone else willing to do it, if you complain. so pretty simple if you work for a full on tandem op in any type aircft you must get paid a decent return. even if only for the responsibility of flying human cargo under sometimes iffy conditions ect. How you land the job and if you have other duties beside flying to earn your bucks then that is up to you if you want to accept it. job satisfaction thats a personal choice. but flying a perfect sortie is as complex as flying any 'Heavy' and pulling them off brought a smile to my face. but when it comes to clubs and i belong to one of the oldest, you will possibly find now that if the aircraft is hired in it usually comes with the pilot. club owned aircraft tend to be flown by either club members rotating around loads or local retired types who just want to finish up with some back to basic flying. i've been to many many boogies, some just as wild as the "guns and flames" presentation all over the country jumping free and getting plenty of right seat time just for pumping jet A and making sure no one walked into a prop. i've also seen plenty of people riped off wage and condition wise in many places and the reason is nobody will stand up and insist on fair and just remunation. there will always be someone who will come along and undercut you. until that link is broken the problems will always remain. It is only recentley these pump um out DZ's were being made to pay superanuation to there staff.
to the guys who would love to trade caravan hrs for the Porter you going to be peeved you read this. just from pumping fuel i managed the folowing
15hrs porter, 55hrs turbine beaver, 25hrs nomad, and 400hrs of real quality time in twin otters KZP, KZQ. admitedly just right seat time but never would have had any other hope in hell of flying them any other way or learning the flying skills i have today. shame this century has been so serious just no real fun left in it now.
Been around the DZ scene for long time. so have have seen it all i suppose when it comes to operators and how they pay their staff. The commercial side of jumping has changed greatly since the tandem concept started becoming popular around the late eighties. resort style drop zones started popping up all over the place catering for just tandems. The traditional old club theme exists only at a few Drop Zones. Amazing how the tandem masters packers the few video flyers that are left since "handcam" started, sound just like you guys. the get st##ed around just like you. not quite working for free but having the risk of losing your job to someone else willing to do it, if you complain. so pretty simple if you work for a full on tandem op in any type aircft you must get paid a decent return. even if only for the responsibility of flying human cargo under sometimes iffy conditions ect. How you land the job and if you have other duties beside flying to earn your bucks then that is up to you if you want to accept it. job satisfaction thats a personal choice. but flying a perfect sortie is as complex as flying any 'Heavy' and pulling them off brought a smile to my face. but when it comes to clubs and i belong to one of the oldest, you will possibly find now that if the aircraft is hired in it usually comes with the pilot. club owned aircraft tend to be flown by either club members rotating around loads or local retired types who just want to finish up with some back to basic flying. i've been to many many boogies, some just as wild as the "guns and flames" presentation all over the country jumping free and getting plenty of right seat time just for pumping jet A and making sure no one walked into a prop. i've also seen plenty of people riped off wage and condition wise in many places and the reason is nobody will stand up and insist on fair and just remunation. there will always be someone who will come along and undercut you. until that link is broken the problems will always remain. It is only recentley these pump um out DZ's were being made to pay superanuation to there staff.
to the guys who would love to trade caravan hrs for the Porter you going to be peeved you read this. just from pumping fuel i managed the folowing
15hrs porter, 55hrs turbine beaver, 25hrs nomad, and 400hrs of real quality time in twin otters KZP, KZQ. admitedly just right seat time but never would have had any other hope in hell of flying them any other way or learning the flying skills i have today. shame this century has been so serious just no real fun left in it now.
Correct, it can be very demanding. That's why one should only do so because he or she truly enjoys it (hobby). Otherwise it is a long, stressfull and dreadfull day.
I never found it to be dreadful, just good honest hard work sometimes. Thats ok, nothing wrong with that when you're earning up to $500 a day. horses for courses I guess.
regards,
Framer
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Got into a dogfight over the DZ once with the other jump plane , I was on the way down and passed by the other aircraft quite close (the other pilot saw me coming and we had formated on each other many times) and surprisingly the climbing aircraft broke off the climb chased me for a few thousand feet.
Both pilots and skydivers enjoyed it , manifest and committee were not impressed , but it still puts a smile on my face.
Lots of magic moments , incredible last load sunsets , formation cross country positioning flights , chasing sheep off the runway , all great stuff. How do you put a price on memories like that ? For me it was worth it .
.
Both pilots and skydivers enjoyed it , manifest and committee were not impressed , but it still puts a smile on my face.
Lots of magic moments , incredible last load sunsets , formation cross country positioning flights , chasing sheep off the runway , all great stuff. How do you put a price on memories like that ? For me it was worth it .
.
Last edited by aseanaero; 12th Nov 2009 at 22:46.