Para Dropping & Pay in GA

[bensonC]

Wondering if I should wade into the debate or not..........................I reckon that this has just become a pissing contest and its all most parallel to the student who slogged it out doing grave yard shifts to pay for there training vs the student has mummy and daddy's amex tussling for moral superiority. Its just too bad that we are all human beings and will do what ever it takes to get what we want and need.

There are apprentice trades people out there that get paid a wage to learn while making their employers money. Maybe all the student pilots out there should jump up and down until every flying school pays them to learn to fly then gives them a charter job as soon as they finish training. It has been mention by a few in here that this industry is different to many others, in the fact that it was probably devalued many moons ago when some duderhead must of metioned to his mate that he actually enjoyed flying.

At the end of the day who cares who did what or who to end up where they are flying, most of us are in the game not just for the money but the enjoyment of aviation and the rich and rewarding career that it can be (apparently!) I would rather be sitting in the back of a kero-buner knowing that both the fellas in the pointy end are there because they want to not just for their pay check at the end of the day.

[Clearedtoreenter]

Hey! lk978, I just noticed you called me an idiot. I don't like that. Can't help wondering what you said before you edited... I notice you seem to to going for the person and not the issue throughout your stupid posts. (notice your posts are stupid not you, you Pillock!) The simple reality is for some if they want to fly, they fly for nothing, or not at all. I'm not defending that but I can't knock those who are in that position.

[aseanaero]

For a small local club operation that charges member enough to cover cost of A/C then they try and locate a pilot willing to give up a day or two every now and then, It is important to remember most of them are club members who jump as well trading off some slots for flying loads. I personally have no problem with this; I liken it to a gliding club. However there are some clubs that don’t distinguish the two areas of the operation.

I think these sorts of clubs are dying out now

I would suggest where these operations exist that you ask for a fee per tandem of which they are making money from. If they are just using you for your licence and you’re not a club member who jumps, I would find alternative ways of getting hours where you will learn something more valuable. Because all they see you as is an elevator operator.

The main problem is when it is a commercial business generating up to $900 revenue per load for a C182 and even more for the larger aircraft for a tandem operation. Now $20 - $25 for the pilot is not much to ask is it?

This is the problem , they really are commercial ops under the guise of 'clubs' . In those sorts of operations when everyone else has their hand out (tandem masters, packers , video guys etc) the pilots should be paid also and operations should be at a professional level.

When I was flying real club loads I bent the rules sometimes , when it came to carrying mums and dads on tandems (who were club members for legal reasons) I didn't have any tolerance to 'bending' the rules and then ran into problems with 'the cash machine' on the drop zone. There were a number of areas where the operation was being naughty (200kg over MTOW was one) and I'm sure if anything went wrong fingers would have been rightly pointed at the pilot. I figured it was just a matter of time before I got busted for something and it wasn't fun anymore.

I paid for my own Porter endorsement (instructor time plus fuel) and flew for the hours and the fun of it and no one ever called me a scab 20 yrs ago , it was great flying and that's what people did to build hours.

I guess times change

[Aerozepplin]

Its such a intense argument I believe because of the unusual nature of aviation.
There can't be many industries where the recreational and professional collide quite so keenly. You don't have weekend doctors who preform a bit of surgery on themselves and their mates, halving the bill at the end because they love the work. (although I'm sure most doctors do love their work, the amature and professional word don't collide... because there isn't an amature world)

I sometimes look at the job ads for Airways, six months training and you're in an ATC job getting $50k+ and wonder if I made the right choice. Then I remember that horrible truth, I love flying. A sentiment shared by most on this board I'm sure.

[jaeiou]

My final words on this issue

j3, I'm releuctant to give too much away about myself. These forums can be read by anyone and I wish to protect my identity. Suffice to say my TT is greater than triple digits with all the trimmings. Have been around a while and currently flying for a company that will happily pay pilots as little as it can get away with, hence the implicit threat not to complain about the deal in the knowledge there is always someone else willing to do the same thing for less. Have encountered a few shonks but never worked for less than Award (have turned down offers from blokes thinking they were doing me a favour by offering to let me fly their paying customers for no reward). Still have to do work outside the industry to survive. Have only paid for own renewals/endorsements at times when unemployed. My views are from the trenches; not as someone on high who hasn't done or is not still doing the hard yards.

As for the poster who lamented the difficulty of getting work with just 150 hours: yes it's tough to get those first few hundred hours, but this does not give anyone making money from your labour the excuse to pay nothing for your services. Flying being a fun pursuit is irrelevant. There are prostitutes who enjoy what they do but they certainly don't give it away! First and foremost, people have to make a living and have a right to be paid for their hard earned skills. Being a pilot is a responsible job. People trust us with their lives. Even a bare CPL holder has experience and skills that are worthy of being paid for. It is unhelpful for pilots to devalue the profession by working for nothing.

Yes, it's understandable for people to think that if they don't do it for nothing someone else will, "so what the heck," they say, "I'll look after myself and the rest can go and get st#%$#d." I stand by my comment that working for nothing is immoral on the part of the operator and employee. Fair dinkum not-for-profit clubs aside, an operator who behaves in such a way is scum and deserves to go broke (but they won't!); the pilot is making it hard for everyone else in the industry who doesn't have the luxury of working for free and only serves to humiliate and undermine themselves as well as devalue the market. Even a first year apprentice tradesman, graduate lawyer or junior at a fast food joint or retail store are paid a meagre wage (a lot of these folk also enjoy what they do). Difficult and tempting as it might be, don't allow unscrupulous operators to con you into thinking your labour is not worth anything. Just because it's the way it has always been doesn't mean it's the way it must continue to be. Collectively, we only have ourselves to blame for the Dickensian practices that occur.

So much for having Labor governments in power throughout most of the country. In any other industry...

[aseanaero]

There can't be many industries where the recreational and professional collide quite so keenly

Amateur gynacology ?

[xxgoldxx]

its all context really..

Para dropping aint commercial and that aint gunna change any time soon.. if you dont like it go see CASA... dont vent here ..!!!

there are i think very few who do not pay something these days.. so lets say it $5 a load (or $20 for that matter). not to award either way so I guess Im a scab...

I live in Sydney with a week job house kids etc and looking for a mid life career change..

Should I sell up, quit my job, move the family to Broome and pay rent of $800 a week etc etc for a "award" job of $35 K just so you mob with jobs already can be happy Im not a scab..

Take a big pay cut.. massive removal cost.... etc etc...
Being a "scab" aint that bad I reckon..

profit = income recieved - costs incurred..

Can you guys really say that every employee you ever worked for did EVERYTHING by the book 100% of the time ??

if you ever bent F&Duty or pushed last light.. logged that MR a bit shy.. put that extra bag onboard...then really as they say .. people in glass houses...

we all did what we had to to get where we are...

[aseanaero]

You got to fly a Porter? You lucky bastard

Hi Owen , I loved the Porter , if you ever get a chance jump at it !

They glide really well also ...

[the wizard of auz]

Amateur gynacology ?

I don't know much about it, but I'm willing to have a look.

Mate I would give a hundred of my caravan hours for 2 in a Porter

I second that.

[aseanaero]

Serious, would love to hear about it some day

Owen , start a post in DG+P , there must be a bunch of guys here that flew Porters in Oz , PNG and NZ . I don't know how many are still in Oz with jump ops , the one I used to fly is now in Europe (France I think).

The fun part was coming down as you know , we'd be on the ground before the meaties.

[j3pipercub]

Xxgoldxxx. Liked your post, interesting take on things I hadn't considered.

I'll third the porter. Is there still one out at the museum?? If so maybe a bunch of us could 'borrow' it and go for a few laps. Although I'd prefer a PBY endo instead...

[Van Gough]

I live in Sydney with a week job house kids etc and looking for a mid life career change..

Should I sell up, quit my job, move the family to Broome and pay rent of $800 a week etc etc for a "award" job of $35 K just so you mob with jobs already can be happy Im not a scab..

Take a big pay cut.. massive removal cost.... etc etc...
Being a "scab" aint that bad I reckon..

I'm sure you would have a different point of view if someone came along to your week job in Sydney and made you unemployed by working for nothing

[dik cheney]

there are i think very few who do not pay something these days.. so lets say it $5 a load (or $20 for that matter). not to award either way so I guess Im a scab...

I live in Sydney with a week job house kids etc and looking for a mid life career change..

Should I sell up, quit my job, move the family to Broome and pay rent of $800 a week etc etc for a "award" job of $35 K just so you mob with jobs already can be happy Im not a scab..

4x it sounds like you got yourself a hobbie rather than a career change. What are you going to do, fly some skydivers on weekends and wait for an airline job? Good luck with that.

[xxgoldxx]

VG

Fair point.. however I am employed in a full time position with award protection and union interests etc etc

Para dropping is NOT a commercial position and in many cases is undertaken by PPL pilots.

Thats the rules. Thats reality.

There is no breach of any rules and its great for me... so why are commercial pilots trying to dictate a union mentality to a PPL pilot...

how can I effect your job if I dont even have a CPL...??

The operator pays me to "caretake" the DZ and I get to fly turbine aircraft for "free" all around the country with 500 hrs total...

name another "hobby" where that happens...???
(glider ops is the same..no CPL there..)

When I apply for a CPL job there will be comercial requirements to meet on both sides..

Until then I will continue to have a ball.!!

dik..
ask your airline mates how many have para time... i think you would be surprised ... will you tell them they have got there under false pretences..??

[flying-spike]

It's what you are worth

As a former chief pilot who was bombarded with applications every week I had more than a few applicants ring and offer to fly for nothing and even offer to pay the difference in insurance premiums in order to cover their low experience. The conversations finished something like this:

" I have paid my way for training and travelled from one end of the country to the other on the off chance of getting a job, if you are willing to work for nothing then that is what you are worth".......CLICK

[Van Gough]

Para dropping is NOT a commercial position and in many cases is undertaken by PPL pilots

One thing that should be noted is that alot of these places are the very definition of a commercial operation - short flights, high workload, quick turnarounds, absolute minimum fuel, bad weather, commercial pressure to fly, fatigue issues, paying passengers...its astounding that CASA allow the practice of PPLs flying jump ops to continue

[aseanaero]

Van Gough , agree with your comments.

In terms of pilots getting paid for flying it's mostly happening at the larger drop zones anyway and a lot of the bigger aircraft are using CPLs.

I guess it's the small to medium drop zones where some pilots aren't getting paid and the argument used is they are PPL and it's illegal (as the skydivers want a bigger pay packet).

I do like the idea of getting around this by paying the pilot for on drop zone services for non flying related duties .

20 years ago 90%-95% of jump pilots were flying for free and it was only the big drop zones like Picton that were paying pilots. I interacted with a lot of GA guys at Parafield in those days (charter pilots, instuctors etc) and no one ever bagged me for flying for free , they actually supported it for building hours and none of them wanted to fly feral meat bombs in ancient 30 to 35 year old jump planes.

It was really the advent of tandem jumps which changed the scene for good and bad , my drop zone was able to go from a C182 to a Porter but a lot of the fun went out the door also , most of the jumpers had jobs they weren't happy with and all of a sudden they were able to go and earn a full time income out of their hobby , as a pilot going through this transition period you could see the difference in attitude.

Before when they paid for their own jumps they would accept if we held a load to wait for the weather to clear up as they had a limited budget anyway but when someone else was paying for their jumps and they were putting money in their pockets and had bills to pay the whole drop zone would want to lynch the pilot if he 'wussed out' due to cloud.

I was doing it for fun and hours but after a couple of years of tandems things weren't so much fun anymore . I pushed it sometimes with the GPS and solid overcast at 10,000ft but drew the line at doing IFR para drops with 8/8's cloud base at 4,000 (which extended to above exit height) which some pilots attempted (I don't know whether this still happens ). I really disagreed with this as there was a training area and a lane of entry right next to the drop zone and none of the pilots that did it had an instrument rating !

How many times have VFR pilots been running along under a solid cloudbase under 5,000ft and heard a 'VFR' jump plane at 12,000 or 14,000ft dropping through an imaginary 'hole' ?

That was the reality of commercial pressures where no jumping meant no pay for the now full time tandem masters , packers , cameraman , manifest etc and they had bills to pay each week.

One point that's interesting is given that low time PPLs were/are flying at the smaller drop zones the fatal accident rate is quite low , if you look at the majority of fatal accidents worldwide (the US in particular) it's usually the larger commercial operations with commercial pilots , maybe because they are pushing the envelope even harder than the unpaid PPL guys due to the commercial realities of a DZ today , look at the causes of most of these fatal accidents , weather and loss of power after take off as the pilot was fatigued and miscalculated his fuel.

[WichWayIsUp]

I completely and whole heartedly agree with plankbender 100%. I will say this from the start, I am low hour pilot with 250 hours under the belt. It is hard times for all us at the moment with the way the economy is going. Nevertheless for any up an comming pilots who wants to make a career out this industry, they will find it even harder. So I understand the mentallity and the idea of working for free, because you take what you can get to get ahead in this industry.

But for f&%k sakes were are some of your morals and dignity. It seems to me that sum of you threw that out of the window the day you got that piece of paper saying that you can fly a plane now. Working for free for any organistion (besides a club obviously) is a blatent use and abuse of our skills, and some of us have just about signed deals with the devil to get our CPL's. So I ask why, why, why would anyone work for free, unless daddy or mummy is there to help cushion the fall because you are not receiving an income. I also understand and value the comments about we should be flying because it is a passion and not a job. But how da hell will I be eating tonight if I cant even find a paying job, because the market is getting flooded with guys that are willing to work for less than peanuts.

I will raise my hand and say that I made the mistake of taking that first job for free, which I want to kick myself for. Luckily my uncle talked some sense into me and aksed why i would be doing this to myself. I really felt cheap and it was so demeaning to me. And to put the icing on the cake i got less than 10hours of work over a period of 3months which is another joke in itself. It has been almost 3 months since i touched plane, no easy task for me. Regardless I decided that I am travelling to africa to find a real flying job as I have some connections over there.

The point out this whole story is that if your willing to make this industry a happy and fun enviroment for all of us, you will do the hard yards by travelling the miles and looking for that first paying job. I would much rather look back on the start of my career with pride and say that I did the hard yards with pride and dignity.

These are hard times, but they will pass. The thing that we have to be worried about is how do get through it with our heads held high.

Kind regards

[aseanaero]

One point that's interesting is given that low time PPLs were/are flying at the smaller drop zones the fatal accident rate is quite low , if you look at the majority of fatal accidents worldwide (the US in particular) it's usually the larger commercial operations with commercial pilots

I found this site which is interesting and in fact shows it IS the little ops with inexperienced pilots that have most of the fatalities mainly due to inexperience ( loss of control, weight and balance issues , poorly handled emergencies). I stand to be corrected , the facts speak for themselves. When the big aircraft go in they stick in your memory but there are lots of C182/205/206s going in also.

Accidents

If you go to the spreadsheet the 3 main causes of accidents in 2005 to 2007 were equally FUEL , CONTROL FLIGHT INTO TERRAIN and LOSS OF CONTROL.

70% of accidents from 1992 to 2007 involved C182, 205, 206

Turbine accidents were 31% C-90 King Air , 31% Twin Otter , 20% Porter and 17% Caravan .

I was amazed how many stall spin accidents on jump run there are in the USA , that seems to rarely happen in Oz .

When you look at the statistics there's a big difference between PPL C182 ops and experienced meat bombers (mostly CPLs) using turbines. When you consider how many loads are done in the USA even with the commercial pressures of a tandem and training DZ the accident rate for the turbine DZs is probably the same if not better than Part 135 charter ops .




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[xxgoldxx]

point 1...

I AM IN NO WAY DEFENDING A LEGIT AIRWORK/CHTR/RPT OP THAT WOULD HIRE A PILOT FOR LESS THAN AWARD.. (or a para op that would pay nothing).... however..

VG etc

all your points are absolutely true .. requires skill and hard work to master... but the point remains.. it is NOT a COMMERCIAL OPERATION IN THE EYES OF CASA..

yes they have looked at it.. yes it is was under scrutiny .. and yes over time I think you will probably see a requirement for it to be a CPL pilot..

so what will the award be for a CPL pilot that flies a private non AOC operation..?? who will want to put thier hand up to try and manage that one..??

people pay a fortune from overseas countries to come here and fly gliders.. they are towed by PPL pilots in anything from Pawnees to ultralights etc.. they pay to get a lift to height .. then they do thier own thing.. they charge passengers for flights as well.. should they have an AOC..??

trikes do the same under the TIF clause in HGFA and I presume something similar in RAA... how comitted to future pilots do you think the average trike ride backpacker pilot is in Cairns, Byron Bay or Broome...??

it is a minefield.. and skydive is not the only one.. but why hassle some guy who wants to get in.. get paid... have fun.. get out and move on..?

asean is obviously someone who got where they are and has alot of stories to tell from meatbombing..

so asean .. from the horses mouth.. are you proud of your achivements or do you feel like a "scab" for having flown the porter etc and worked for less than (who's) award...? or are you better for the experience and enjoying your current life.....