Jetstar NZ Pay

[an3_bolt]

And what will your baristas be earning in ten years time

They will probably be earning exactly the same as you.

I think you may have missed the point - or I did not make myself as clear as I could have.

It is this simple - non skilled labour is earning more than skilled AND invested labour. You have spent many years gaining a licence and maintaining it and upgrading it at considerable cost. You have taken the risk and invested in yourself as a business. Your licence is a business. Just like a plumber or electrician or a doctor. Lose your licence and you are out of business!!!

Let us take the example of a doctor. 6 years or so at uni (can do it with Hex these days), and then a few as an intern or similar under someones guidance doing a specialist. Kind of sounds like GA. Then after that you try to set yourself up in a clinic (preferably attached to a hospital) in a partnership. Only those who have a bit of brains and skill get invited into the club at the clinic - hey just like an airline!! And then you get a return on your investment. But it is not just raining gold coins - you have to work and maintain your skills. And it all comes in due course. That is why specialist charge an arm and a leg - to pay costs and return on their investment and lost wages.

Now - back to airlines. If things do not progress and expand - there is a good chance in 5-10 years you just might be earning the same wage "in real terms" that you are earning right now. If it all goes well - you might just double your money - but that is not exactly hard off a very low base wage.

Now - why would anyone pay more when you are attempting to justify there lowest offer? Kind of like saying to the bank "I understand that you have to make money, justify expenses etc and that 11% interest on my mortgage is alright with me - no need to negotiate on that. Not the best deal in town, but your branch is just around the corner and you are convenient although I could get a better deal down the road. "

Rather I would say "You got a hell of a lot of my money with you - you better give me the going worldwide rate - or I will take my money elsewhere. I am perpared to go and get the best rate."

On the back of my beer coaster - I add the figures.......8 years or so at GA wages then real airline position with increasing wage adjusted for inflation etc through to retirement. Then I add up short time in GA and then crap airline wages through to retirement adjusted for inflation etc

Do your own maths and see what you come up with. If you want it all now you get less return in the long term.

I am not trying to take the crap out of anyone or give them a hard line. Just trying to show an alternative point of view about "business".

You are a business. You are only worth what you think you are worth.

[jack red]

...........i'm sorry an3_bolt.......

You are a business. You are only worth what you think you are worth.

...i was sure the saying was
"You are a business. You are only worth what your clients think you are worth".
in this case read client as airline!.............

[an3_bolt]

NO

I was saying exactly what is written. People will pay what is "going rate pricing" or what is perceived to be the correct pricing. When people start saying that they are worth $56,000 - that is what they will get paid. No more - no less. If you say you are worth $200,000 they will not get paid that as the going rate is less. The balance is in between.

The client will pay what they think you are worth - yes - and when you say I am worth $56,000 - why pay anymore. I am sure they would be prepared to pay more if they need to.

Go do a business course and study marketing and pricing.

I give up.

I have better things to be doing - like watching TV.

[hotnhigh]

I really want to hear genex's take on all of this.
One sad slippery slope that has enveloped aviation downunder the last few years. GA from top to bottom now.
Now let's see, well take aircraft from these blokes and give it to these blokes, and how much do I save? Noice.
Still.........the JPC will look after us.

[Spikey21]

"You are a business. You are only worth what your clients think you are worth".

So based on that principle then jack, let me know when you are selling your car/house/wife whatever and I will tell you what it is worth and you will gladly accept that... yeah right.

[remoak]

Hands up all those who have doubled their pay in the last 20 years, ie. 1989 to 2009.

Yep, thought so, just remoak and a couple of cessna drivers.

Well you clearly know nothing about startups... so let me help you.

1. Join new airline as experienced F/O.
2. Airline expands and needs more captains.
3. Senior F/Os all get commands.
4. Captains pay plus 10 years of increments = double what you started on (more or less).

For both Easyjet and Ryanair, experienced F/Os regularly get early commands, during some periods after only 6-9 months. The same will happen her if J* expand - which is why joining early is a smart move.

[Spikey21]

For both Easyjet and Ryanair, experienced F/Os regularly get early commands, during some periods after only 6-9 months.

and if they are really lucky they may now get paid as a Capt with either airline the same or less than what a BA f/o was getting paid ten years ago and he didnt have to pay for an endorsement (+ the Jitstar admin fee )

What are we actually doubling here. The lower the entry $ the easier it is to double it but you still end up with fa.

[Dee]

Back to the thread topic:

Anyone know if there is DTA or overtime for hours in excess of say 75 per roster. Any overnights? and what is the source of this salary that was mentioned? any truth in it?

whats the call out rate on a day off etc....

[Muff Hunter]

Dee,

No DTA, NO Overnights, O/T after 75 hours at around $150hr capt and $95hr F/O

Again, No Super, No JQ Perf Bonus and No Retention Bonus...

Figures are correct at this stage (confirmed by a very reliable source) as JQ are still waiting to see how many suckers they can get......

[Dee]

Thanks MH, no super, but I see they are going to contribute to the kiwisaver.... do you get interest on those deposits and can Australians benefit from this system.

And do you get any extra for working on a day off.

At this stage looks very cheap!!

[Spikey21]

but I see they are going to contribute to the kiwisaver

1% woohoo !!

KiwiSaver - Your pay and contributions

[Gnd Power]

... because we all know that lifestyle is worth megabucks - more than the salary differential between our Euro salaries and what's on offer here.
Straight onto a nice shiny new jet, at or near the top of the seniority list... I'd take it.

I guess that once you have made your euros’ (been a pretty good exchange rate btw) and have probably set yourself up financially, why should you care about anything OR anyone else.

Although perhaps you are just winding up, hope so.

Has been done to death I know, but low cost doesn't necessarily have to mean coffee making salary.

[Dee]

1% woohoo !!

Hey i didnt say it was great, also looks like the contribution is no cost to the company in the first year as the government give the company the money to cover it.....cmon

[remoak]

why should you care about anything OR anyone else.

Some of you guys just crack me up.

Do you SERIOUSLY believe that ANYONE sits down after having had a job offer from a jet operator, and thinks "now is there anybody who might be hurt/disadvantaged/mentally scarred if I accept this job? Because if there is, I won't take it"? I mean, what planet are you on?

Everybody here advances their career however they can. Some are more morallly inclined than others, but the idea that anyone should turn down a job with a legitimate airline on the basis that doing so may hurt their colleagues, is complete nonsense. it never happens.

More to the point, T&Cs for pilots, globally speaking, have been on the slide for years. That is partly because they were over-valued in the first place, but also because the industry can no longer support them. It has little to do with pilots screwing each other. Of course, in the sleepy little backwater that is Antipodean aviation, this fact is resisted by those who believe in the anachronistic idea that they are automatically "entitled" to a Qantas/Air NZ salary.

So, no doubt, all of you whinging about the salary/conditions/recruitment process are not going to apply? Crap! You are all whining on PPRuNe to show "solidarity" with your union-minded colleagues, while busily filling out your applications and queuing up to take the psychometric tests.

Welcome to the real world!

[DeltaT]

It saddens me that they are offering terrible pay conditions but if its the only job going, what would you do?
Kiwis do not have an award rate wage such that we can pick and choose some single engine job that can still out pay a regional position.
What would be happening in Australia if you did not have your minimum award?
As has been mentioned earlier, if J* NZ want to set themselves up with poor morale, and as soon as the tide turns all the pilots go elsewhere then J* NZ can dig their own hole.

This is the NZ MP for Transport
New Zealand Parliament - Joyce, Steven
Go to the lower right of the page and click on his name under 'email contacts'.
Instead of us all turning on each other with bitter words, you can redirect your efforts to someone who is in a position to make a change.
Tell him about the situation, and for that matter that includes you Australian pilots.

[remoak]

Steven Joyce is a politician. He cannot, and will not, try and tell an airline how much to pay their staff. As long as Jetstar pay over the minimum wage, they can do what they want and no government will ever try and influence them on that subject.

There is a union in NZ of course (well, sort of), but I'll bet you serious money that they won't do a thing..

[DeltaT]

You are right, he won't. But we can apply pressure for a *NZ* pilot award wage too!!

[GADRIVR]

Remoak....the main reason T&Cs have been sliding for years (well since 1989 if you do your homework) is because of people like you....a minority granted.
As long as there are weak links in the chain, the slide continues.
I'll say it again.
Truckies fair better than us overall as an industry
Train drivers fair better than us as an industry.
Most other jobs that require a bit above average intelligence fair beter than us as an industry.
As long as there people with a "f*** you Jack, I'm ok" mentality...yep you're right...the industry will continue to decline.
Good on ya cobber.....what a top bloke you are

[remoak]

As long as there people with a "f*** you Jack, I'm ok" mentality...yep you're right...the industry will continue to decline.

Ah Ok so you are going to turn down a jet job in order to stand on principle, are you? Rather fly your GA POS and spend your life in crappy places blaming everyone but yourself for your lack of progression?

The reality is that every slot that Jetstar has will be easily filled, probably oversubscribed by 500%. These people aren't shafting you or anybody else, and they aren't setting out to harm the industry. They are valuing their services at a certain level, and that's all. Being smart people, they know that their overall prospects are dramatically better than any truckie, train driver, or whatever. They also know that in this climate, having a job at all in aviation is a bonus, and now is definitely not the time to be haggling over pay.

And since you brought up 1989, that is indeed a salutary lesson. The pilots valued their services at a certain level, and pretty much everyone else disagreed... and look what happened. Now ask yourself if that was the smartest move, in terms of preserving pay and conditions? And no, I don't want to get into a fight over '89, few people here can think clearly about it anyway.

The sooner some of you lose the 1950's UK union rhetoric, the better. Those days are long gone.

[distracted cockroach]

For goodness sake, we have a number of recent case studies that tell us what will happen here...look at Pac Blue and Jetconnect. Both started out paying similar salaries to those stated here, both ended up in dire straits with poor pilot retention. Both ended up unionised and together the pilots negotiated improved salaries and conditions (well I believe Pac Blue are in the process)
Jetstar NZ will be similar......mark my words. It just takes a bit of time and a lot of bloody hard work.