Requirements for Tailwheel Endorsment
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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I think his reasoning was because the Tiger would land slower in the three point attitude, and If I did muff it, they would have a lesser chance of me righting the machine off, and the fact it was a sealed strip I was learning on. Only a guess though, as it was never really explained.
Grandpa Aerotart
Interesting observation djpil. When I did my TW endo I had about 40 hours TT (RPPL) and the fella that did my training owned a Pitts S2a. He never showed me wheeler landings even in the last hour of xwind circuits on the old cross runway at YSBK. 3 pointers into wind and '2 pointers' crosswind...and that was how I flew the Decathlon (and later the Tiger Moth) until after I had flown the C185 in PNG years later. I taught myself wheelers in the 185.
In PNG I ended up training people on the 185...most from scratch with no previous TW time...all struggled with wheeler landings and as strong x winds were not an issue usually and wheeler landings are not a great idea on short, rough, steep, muddy jungle strips I invariably, having demoed wheelers and watched them bounce wheelers into nice, safe 'recovery' 3 pointers, signed them out and let them work wheelers out for themselves later. All did. As my first CP said to me.."Doesn't matter a fck if you bounce as long as you bounce in a straight line"
Last month I hopped in a mate's brother's late model C180 at YCAB and did several nice xwind wheelers and then got a little slow and bounced the into wind 3 pointer
but we bounced in a straight line
C185skywagon...Check your PMs. He has plans to tour the East Coast and I think it wont take much arm twisting for a flyin/pissup at Cherribah.
The aircraft is in a 40' container enroute WA as we speak. This pic was taken by the previous owner...a 777 captain/LAME in Texas who completed a ground up restoration on it 10+ years ago.
In PNG I ended up training people on the 185...most from scratch with no previous TW time...all struggled with wheeler landings and as strong x winds were not an issue usually and wheeler landings are not a great idea on short, rough, steep, muddy jungle strips I invariably, having demoed wheelers and watched them bounce wheelers into nice, safe 'recovery' 3 pointers, signed them out and let them work wheelers out for themselves later. All did. As my first CP said to me.."Doesn't matter a fck if you bounce as long as you bounce in a straight line"
Last month I hopped in a mate's brother's late model C180 at YCAB and did several nice xwind wheelers and then got a little slow and bounced the into wind 3 pointer
but we bounced in a straight lineC185skywagon...Check your PMs. He has plans to tour the East Coast and I think it wont take much arm twisting for a flyin/pissup at Cherribah.
The aircraft is in a 40' container enroute WA as we speak. This pic was taken by the previous owner...a 777 captain/LAME in Texas who completed a ground up restoration on it 10+ years ago.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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"Doesn't matter a fck if you bounce as long as you bounce in a straight line"
Probably the best piece of tailwheel advice I have ever heard. If that beautiful piece of machinery is heading to WA, I would certainly appreciate a crawl over it.
My 2 cents worth!
I learned to fly in a C150 with an instructor that was insistent on nose high fully stalled landings.
I did my tail wheel endorsement in a J4 Auster when I had about 100 hrs. A complete pig of an aeroplane but once I got the hang of keeping it straight using its almost useless rudder (at low airspeeds anyway) and awkward heel brakes, I had very little troubles with it. Maybe 3 hrs dual. Only ever did 3-pointers and was told "you can't wheel an Auster" by someone who know what he was talking about (WWII Wirraway instructor) - so I never tried. Doing a TW endorsement without a good workover on wheel landings is a serious deficiency in my opinion.
Next taildragger was a J1 Auster. Much more responsive to rudder input than the J4.
Then I towed gliders in a Pawnee 235 - but that shouldn't count cause you could fly than thing like a NW aircraft and would have to try hard to come to grief. Easiest TW I have ever flown.
A mate had a C180, and I was fortunate enough to be able to fly that pretty well as much as I liked until I was comfortable and competant. Did a couple of hrs of circuits ICUS and then maybe 10 hrs solo in a very short space of time. His brother then bought a C185 and I got to drive that a lot, both ICUS and solo. I was never totally confident in the 180/185 until I had mastered tail-low wheelers. Fantastic experience that I didn't have to pay for!
I have also flown Tiger Moth and Harvard.
After I did an Instructors Rating, I used to do TW endorsements in a PA18 Super Cub. What a fun little aeroplane! You could do wheelers and 3-pointers till your heart's content in that sucker, and turn messed up wheelers into 3-pointers and vis versa! While I had some interesting excursions with pilot's coming to grips with their first TW aeroplane, I never felt I might "loose it".
I have never flown Citabria/Decathalon but I figure they would be much the same.
I think an initial Tail Wheel endorsement should be a minimum of 3-5 hrs dual depending on the candidate, and should cover the principles of why they are so keen to depart from a straightline roll on TO and Landing, how to position the control surfaces when taxying, TO and landing in winds from all points of the compass, and a thorough workout on 3-pointers and wheelers both into wind and in various x-winds.
Somewhere in another thread I have related the story of someone who learnt to fly in a C150, did their navs in a C172 and then, with about 50 hrs in their log book, insisted on doing an intial TW endorsement in a C185 - it ended in tears!
Dr
I learned to fly in a C150 with an instructor that was insistent on nose high fully stalled landings.
I did my tail wheel endorsement in a J4 Auster when I had about 100 hrs. A complete pig of an aeroplane but once I got the hang of keeping it straight using its almost useless rudder (at low airspeeds anyway) and awkward heel brakes, I had very little troubles with it. Maybe 3 hrs dual. Only ever did 3-pointers and was told "you can't wheel an Auster" by someone who know what he was talking about (WWII Wirraway instructor) - so I never tried. Doing a TW endorsement without a good workover on wheel landings is a serious deficiency in my opinion.
Next taildragger was a J1 Auster. Much more responsive to rudder input than the J4.
Then I towed gliders in a Pawnee 235 - but that shouldn't count cause you could fly than thing like a NW aircraft and would have to try hard to come to grief. Easiest TW I have ever flown.
A mate had a C180, and I was fortunate enough to be able to fly that pretty well as much as I liked until I was comfortable and competant. Did a couple of hrs of circuits ICUS and then maybe 10 hrs solo in a very short space of time. His brother then bought a C185 and I got to drive that a lot, both ICUS and solo. I was never totally confident in the 180/185 until I had mastered tail-low wheelers. Fantastic experience that I didn't have to pay for!
I have also flown Tiger Moth and Harvard.
After I did an Instructors Rating, I used to do TW endorsements in a PA18 Super Cub. What a fun little aeroplane! You could do wheelers and 3-pointers till your heart's content in that sucker, and turn messed up wheelers into 3-pointers and vis versa! While I had some interesting excursions with pilot's coming to grips with their first TW aeroplane, I never felt I might "loose it".
I have never flown Citabria/Decathalon but I figure they would be much the same.
I think an initial Tail Wheel endorsement should be a minimum of 3-5 hrs dual depending on the candidate, and should cover the principles of why they are so keen to depart from a straightline roll on TO and Landing, how to position the control surfaces when taxying, TO and landing in winds from all points of the compass, and a thorough workout on 3-pointers and wheelers both into wind and in various x-winds.
Somewhere in another thread I have related the story of someone who learnt to fly in a C150, did their navs in a C172 and then, with about 50 hrs in their log book, insisted on doing an intial TW endorsement in a C185 - it ended in tears!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 23rd Jan 2009 at 03:54.
Grandpa Aerotart
Speaking of taildraggers that 'can't' be wheel landed...The Helio Courier was much like that. Like the 185 the Helio was an aeroplane that circumstances dictated I teach myself...a phone call to a mate who had flown it many years before being the sum total of 'dual' received. I never actually tried to wheel land it...something about the geometry and its landing characteristics just said 'don't'. If anyone reading has time in Helio Couriers and wheel landed them I'd be fascinated to hear about it.
Mind you with a typical Vref of about 25kts and a max crosswind limit of 7kts there was no need...if the wind was strong and across you just land on an into wind taxiway...or across the runway for that matter.
Mind you with a typical Vref of about 25kts and a max crosswind limit of 7kts there was no need...if the wind was strong and across you just land on an into wind taxiway...or across the runway for that matter.
Silly Old Git
Olsem Porter Chuck
Porter just sunk onto the ground like sittin down in granmas old overstuffed armchair
I flew the C195 in about 73, real daunting bugger was that and for some reason not much I really liked cept for the noise.
Porter just sunk onto the ground like sittin down in granmas old overstuffed armchair
I flew the C195 in about 73, real daunting bugger was that and for some reason not much I really liked cept for the noise.
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Well, I am most likely the least experienced of pilots here, but I do at least have a tiger moth, chipmunk and almost a J3 cub rating (as well as a bit of time in a harvard, piston provost and spitfire (the 2 seater!))
My instructor was quite thorough in teaching both wheelers and 3 pointers. God help you trying to do a 3 pointer in a tiger in a crosswind or gusty conditions!! The tiger was the first taildragger I did a rating in and the chipmunk for example was a doddle in comparison to 3 point. The tiger everything needs to line and and only wants to 3 point stick hard back, etc, whereas the others seem to be less fickle.
Certainly the wheeler buys you time to sort it all out if it is gusty and is the only way to go in a crosswind. Three pointer is the go for those nice days or trying to get into a tight paddock
Just my opinion!
My instructor was quite thorough in teaching both wheelers and 3 pointers. God help you trying to do a 3 pointer in a tiger in a crosswind or gusty conditions!! The tiger was the first taildragger I did a rating in and the chipmunk for example was a doddle in comparison to 3 point. The tiger everything needs to line and and only wants to 3 point stick hard back, etc, whereas the others seem to be less fickle.
Certainly the wheeler buys you time to sort it all out if it is gusty and is the only way to go in a crosswind. Three pointer is the go for those nice days or trying to get into a tight paddock
Just my opinion!
I had a c150 which was a lovely and benign little aeroplane to fly, then I converted it ( myself ) to a taildragger. Boy did that make it interesting. With low power and a very "springey" undercarriage it was very interesting. Used to 3 point it all the time, to be honest, I never realy mastered wheelers in that machine despite owning it for several years. Decatherlon, piece of cake, RV6 and 7 the same.
SM227:
To start, get yourself a copy of the book "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot" by Harvey S. Plourde. It's full of all sorts of information explaining what goes on with taildraggers. Plenty of simple diagrams and great explanations. Most other books and dare I say instructors too often say simply "you must never.... (whatever)
" but they don't (and probably can't) explain WHY. Why? Because that's what they got told, and they're just blindly repeating the nonsense.
Good luck with it, it's not the demon many say.
To start, get yourself a copy of the book "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot" by Harvey S. Plourde. It's full of all sorts of information explaining what goes on with taildraggers. Plenty of simple diagrams and great explanations. Most other books and dare I say instructors too often say simply "you must never.... (whatever)
" but they don't (and probably can't) explain WHY. Why? Because that's what they got told, and they're just blindly repeating the nonsense.Good luck with it, it's not the demon many say.
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Few tail wheel airplanes are tricky to fly, I can only recall a couple that required you really keep on top of them.
One was the Grumman Turbo Goose because it was really over powered and could get away from you in a hurry.
The other was the Anson mk.5 with the vacuum over hydraulic brakes, only the British could design such an abortion of a brake system.
One was the Grumman Turbo Goose because it was really over powered and could get away from you in a hurry.
The other was the Anson mk.5 with the vacuum over hydraulic brakes, only the British could design such an abortion of a brake system.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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yeah, pretty sure they took that system directly from the J series Bedford truck and transplanted it. was ****e personified.
I did my first tailwheel endo in a PA18-100 Cub and was taught wheelers and 3-pointers. Subsequently in the cub I generally did whatever landing seemed appropriate at the time.
I then started flying a Pitts S2A and was cautioned not to wheel it because it has a shorter couple between the main wheels and C of G with the tail up and tends to be pitchy and twitchy. I did 600 hours in it (about 2000 landings) and never bothered trying to wheel it, 3-pointers worked nicely and, as someone else mentioned above, you can't see anything out the front anyway.
The guy who cautioned me about wheelers in the Pitts sent me away in a Tiger Moth but suggested that wheelers were the easiest way to land one. I've tried both and agree with him, so Tigers normally get a wheel landing from me. I found the Harvard easier to wheel on as well, but the Maule would get 3-pointers.
I've never flown a Polikarpov, but when there was a gaggle of them at Wanaka all the pilots had different ideas on how to land them. I saw the prop on one chewing up grass during a rather tail high wheeler.
Ultimately it seemed that each aircraft lends itself to one type of landing or the other, but I think it's a bit lacking not to train both types in the beginning.
I then started flying a Pitts S2A and was cautioned not to wheel it because it has a shorter couple between the main wheels and C of G with the tail up and tends to be pitchy and twitchy. I did 600 hours in it (about 2000 landings) and never bothered trying to wheel it, 3-pointers worked nicely and, as someone else mentioned above, you can't see anything out the front anyway.
The guy who cautioned me about wheelers in the Pitts sent me away in a Tiger Moth but suggested that wheelers were the easiest way to land one. I've tried both and agree with him, so Tigers normally get a wheel landing from me. I found the Harvard easier to wheel on as well, but the Maule would get 3-pointers.
I've never flown a Polikarpov, but when there was a gaggle of them at Wanaka all the pilots had different ideas on how to land them. I saw the prop on one chewing up grass during a rather tail high wheeler.
Ultimately it seemed that each aircraft lends itself to one type of landing or the other, but I think it's a bit lacking not to train both types in the beginning.
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Citabria's a fun little aeroplane, highly recommended. Got mine done in 2.1hr. I think it would have taken much longer if it had been a more challenging tailer, like a Cub or something.
Best tailwheel/basic aeros endorsement I ever heard of was 1.7hr VDO. Airswitch was something like 1.4hr.
Best tailwheel/basic aeros endorsement I ever heard of was 1.7hr VDO. Airswitch was something like 1.4hr.
I think it would have taken much longer if it had been a more challenging tailer, like a Cub or something.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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The Tiger I learned in did not have brakes. I had more trouble with the heel brakes in the super cub than the tiger.
A Tiger's not meant to have brakes, or a tailwheel, or a mixture control, or carb heat control, or any electrics, or anything really, other than a stick, rudder, throttle, and mag switches. Don't get me started on the Canadian built ones with a canopy.
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Aerocat, as i'm sure you know the Tiger's got fully automatic Carby heat. Now that's innovation Don't even get that on a 2009 Piper Archer!
Still ahead of our time those Tigers
Don't even get that on a 2009 Piper Archer!Still ahead of our time those Tigers
Silly Old Git
WIZZA that was the Thruxton Jackaroo
Cubs brakes wernt really required except for park/taxy
Yer would end up in the hedge trying to find the buggers for anything else
The Poms had their heads up their arse with air brakes, they stuck em on everything.Even the poor old Cloggies caught the disease and bunged em on the Friendship. I dont know of anyone actually ground looping a Fokker, but I've seen some gaudy pedalling
Cubs brakes wernt really required except for park/taxy
Yer would end up in the hedge trying to find the buggers for anything else
The Poms had their heads up their arse with air brakes, they stuck em on everything.Even the poor old Cloggies caught the disease and bunged em on the Friendship. I dont know of anyone actually ground looping a Fokker, but I've seen some gaudy pedalling
Last edited by tinpis; 25th Jan 2009 at 21:50.