Standards of training/english
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Standards of training/english
[Rant]
Had cause yesterday to fly a few places not normally visited and spend a bit of time listening to the airways. Based on this limited sample, it would seem that the qualitity of both english and 'solo' students is way down.
Highlights from yesterday included:
1. MB tower to aircraft sitting at holding point for extended period of time (no previous call) - "Sportstar at the holding point, advise when ready". Reply "I would like to take off please".
2. Melbourne centre to VFR around Romsey - many calls unanswered then finally VFR calls for area QNH. Asked to set transponder to mode C, centre is told that it is - but miraculously altitude data then appears. Told that he's a mile from the CTA step, reply - ok, descending now. Told to expedite descent to 3500 - reply it's ok, I'm already at 4000' (and inside CTA) - absolutely no concept of urgency.
3. Melbourne centre to VFR north of Kilmore - (at least this guy responded) - "squawk ident" - reply was unintelligible. 2 more repeats followed by centre "push the button on your transponder that says 'ident'". Finally message gets through - importantly because centre was trying to advise him of traffic 1 mile ahead, same level and catching.
4. (and this isn't just aimed at students) - repeated, repeated requests for VFR aircraft to identify themselves being ignored. Up around Mangalore this is a frequent frequent occurance.
Hats off to all the ATC who have to deal with obviously unprepared, unready students being sent off into the skies. I couldn't do it.
[/rant]
UTR
Had cause yesterday to fly a few places not normally visited and spend a bit of time listening to the airways. Based on this limited sample, it would seem that the qualitity of both english and 'solo' students is way down.
Highlights from yesterday included:
1. MB tower to aircraft sitting at holding point for extended period of time (no previous call) - "Sportstar at the holding point, advise when ready". Reply "I would like to take off please".
2. Melbourne centre to VFR around Romsey - many calls unanswered then finally VFR calls for area QNH. Asked to set transponder to mode C, centre is told that it is - but miraculously altitude data then appears. Told that he's a mile from the CTA step, reply - ok, descending now. Told to expedite descent to 3500 - reply it's ok, I'm already at 4000' (and inside CTA) - absolutely no concept of urgency.
3. Melbourne centre to VFR north of Kilmore - (at least this guy responded) - "squawk ident" - reply was unintelligible. 2 more repeats followed by centre "push the button on your transponder that says 'ident'". Finally message gets through - importantly because centre was trying to advise him of traffic 1 mile ahead, same level and catching.
4. (and this isn't just aimed at students) - repeated, repeated requests for VFR aircraft to identify themselves being ignored. Up around Mangalore this is a frequent frequent occurance.
Hats off to all the ATC who have to deal with obviously unprepared, unready students being sent off into the skies. I couldn't do it.
[/rant]
UTR
Well this kind of thread/discussion/chat pops up every now & then sadly mainly because it's getting more & more obvious that R/T procedures play little by way of importance in airmanship these days.
It's difficult enough trying to deal out the cards (pilots) whom I come across at a conutry strip that have little idea what they are doing other than steering a plane around the sky willy nilly with little clue half the time of any sought of procedures.
"UTR" sadly I wasn't too shocked to read yr comments but very disappointed. Blame? Well perhaps to start with the level of training, afterall nobody is born with experience to fly & everything that's involved we are all taught from scratch.
Answer? ZERO, not fixable sadly
Wmk2
p.s...............just so some of you pvt drivers don't get too cranky here every now & then I come across a pvt pilot who is very pro & it shows, you are a minority sadly.
It's difficult enough trying to deal out the cards (pilots) whom I come across at a conutry strip that have little idea what they are doing other than steering a plane around the sky willy nilly with little clue half the time of any sought of procedures.
"UTR" sadly I wasn't too shocked to read yr comments but very disappointed. Blame? Well perhaps to start with the level of training, afterall nobody is born with experience to fly & everything that's involved we are all taught from scratch.
Answer? ZERO, not fixable sadly
Wmk2
p.s...............just so some of you pvt drivers don't get too cranky here every now & then I come across a pvt pilot who is very pro & it shows, you are a minority sadly.
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"is there an instructor on board"....
Owen, good luck to you mate, I feel your frustration.
I guess CASA, Governments, et all will sit up and take notice when there is a major SNAFU.
Fingers will point, brows will be furrowed, questions asked, and at the end,,,,,,,,,,,?
I guess CASA, Governments, et all will sit up and take notice when there is a major SNAFU.
Fingers will point, brows will be furrowed, questions asked, and at the end,,,,,,,,,,,?
'OS' as goldstar said(whoops 'Gordstar'
) I feel yr frustration but at least you can sit there shaking yr head (which you must do a lot) some of us drivers can't afford to just 'sit' there we have to act & at times it's a real inconvenience & bloody dangerous. Recently I flew into a well known gliding strip where there was some kind of comp on. Trust me I had every eye available onboard looking out for gliders as these are at times in another world despite giving several calls I recieved just one who had good situational awareness & plain english R/T procedures.
BLT is now a huge concern for us do the increased foreign training going on there, same CTAF as 2 other well used AD's of which you can hear traffic at all 3 when approaching the BLT circuit.
'OS' if you have to ask.......'is there an instructor onbaord' then God 'elp us!!!
Wmk2
) I feel yr frustration but at least you can sit there shaking yr head (which you must do a lot) some of us drivers can't afford to just 'sit' there we have to act & at times it's a real inconvenience & bloody dangerous. Recently I flew into a well known gliding strip where there was some kind of comp on. Trust me I had every eye available onboard looking out for gliders as these are at times in another world despite giving several calls I recieved just one who had good situational awareness & plain english R/T procedures.BLT is now a huge concern for us do the increased foreign training going on there, same CTAF as 2 other well used AD's of which you can hear traffic at all 3 when approaching the BLT circuit.
'OS' if you have to ask.......'is there an instructor onbaord' then God 'elp us!!!
Wmk2
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Cracks me up to see a thread like this on what could basically be described as "clear & effective communication" being distorted by those with a lengthy history of piss-poor written communication here... not that your opinions aren't valid; they are -when they're decipherable!!! Syntax, grammar and spelling seem to be some sort of foreign concept...
Clear, concise, accurate communication = professionalism? Yup, reckon so, at least in part. But if you're going to crack on about someone else's lack of professionalism in communication, be sure your own is up to par.
Hypocrisy? Rampant, as far as I can see.
Clear, concise, accurate communication = professionalism? Yup, reckon so, at least in part. But if you're going to crack on about someone else's lack of professionalism in communication, be sure your own is up to par.
Hypocrisy? Rampant, as far as I can see.
Owen Stanley
Shut UP. It, like, sounds cool an' that.
"On climb XXX Pending clearance"
...and makes us seem like WE know better than YOU
"On climb XXX Pending clearance"
...and makes us seem like WE know better than YOU
'OS' apologies you being a pilot also means you have to not only put up with it whilst grounded but deal with it in a manor to secure yr ass!
As much as I hate to say this my IFR cousins are just as bad also at R/T phrases with not saying what's expected & adding stuff that's not relevant etc but at the very least they get across comments that are of importance (no excuse though I know) it's the 'farmer brown' pilots that are a danger to themselves & the rest of us. 'Farmer brown' is just a phraseology, not meant to be directed at the primary producers of this great country.
EDUCATION is the only way to stamp out this problem, but the only trouble is that the 'students' as such have already left school & the new ones are simply not being taught correctly in the first place! Discipline has gone right out the window!
Quite a while back now I had to 'go-around' at EN due to a foreign student pilot was having all sorts of truobles reading back an airways clearance to the twr & the ATC guy couldn't get a clear transmission in to advise me of a ldg clearance. How did this student get to this stage without being corrected by his/her instructor somewhere long the way of their training?
'RS' written coms are irrelevant here.
Wmk2
As much as I hate to say this my IFR cousins are just as bad also at R/T phrases with not saying what's expected & adding stuff that's not relevant etc but at the very least they get across comments that are of importance (no excuse though I know) it's the 'farmer brown' pilots that are a danger to themselves & the rest of us. 'Farmer brown' is just a phraseology, not meant to be directed at the primary producers of this great country.
EDUCATION is the only way to stamp out this problem, but the only trouble is that the 'students' as such have already left school & the new ones are simply not being taught correctly in the first place! Discipline has gone right out the window!
Quite a while back now I had to 'go-around' at EN due to a foreign student pilot was having all sorts of truobles reading back an airways clearance to the twr & the ATC guy couldn't get a clear transmission in to advise me of a ldg clearance. How did this student get to this stage without being corrected by his/her instructor somewhere long the way of their training?
'RS' written coms are irrelevant here.
Wmk2
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Originally Posted by Wally Mk2
...written coms are irrelevant here.
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There is a world of difference between shorthand of a defined, known context and someone just not making an effort. Think about it -just a little- and you should see that my posts are both on-topic and pertinent.
YPPF isn't as bad as "can i take off please" but as far as following instructions by ATC they are shocking here.
example. Flying circuits last year using 21L, FTA tobago is instructed to overfly the circuit and join the circuit behind me (mid downwind) Then i spot the tobago cutting straight in front of me and joining the downwind leg resulting in myself taking precautionary measures so that i didnt come close enough to warrant a report being filed.
I notice alot when flying down there that aircraft are instructed to follow aircraft that they havent sighted and don't until its too late. Instead they just blurt their callsign out without visually sighting the aircraft that they are required to follow!
T5
example. Flying circuits last year using 21L, FTA tobago is instructed to overfly the circuit and join the circuit behind me (mid downwind) Then i spot the tobago cutting straight in front of me and joining the downwind leg resulting in myself taking precautionary measures so that i didnt come close enough to warrant a report being filed.
I notice alot when flying down there that aircraft are instructed to follow aircraft that they havent sighted and don't until its too late. Instead they just blurt their callsign out without visually sighting the aircraft that they are required to follow!
T5
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I have done, and no they're not. We're talking about verbal comms, not letters to the editor. Personally I like to do both as correctly as possible, but each to their own on a forum.
That'll be my last words on the matter unless you want to carry on the debate in a received pronunciation forum somewhere else. I won't dwell on the subject any longer since it adds nothing to the topic of poor verbal comms.
Moving swiftly on then - back to verbal comms.
I'm still a student pilot and agree with all the criticisms above me - after all, if it shocks someone with my lack of experience then something must be up!! However another thing that makes my air time that little bit harder (especially when very low hours) is the amount of quick, garbled and slurred broadcasts (most notably on CTAF) by the more experienced. You get the sense they are boradcasting because they have to; but they're forgetting the importance of the broadcast in the first place. My training airfield shares CTAF with 2 others making the comms very busy. Therefore it doesn't help when all I hear is that someone is heading for my airfield but I don't know where from or what they're aiming for.
In my opinion it's unprofessional, lazy and dangerous.
That'll be my last words on the matter unless you want to carry on the debate in a received pronunciation forum somewhere else. I won't dwell on the subject any longer since it adds nothing to the topic of poor verbal comms.
Moving swiftly on then - back to verbal comms.
I'm still a student pilot and agree with all the criticisms above me - after all, if it shocks someone with my lack of experience then something must be up!! However another thing that makes my air time that little bit harder (especially when very low hours) is the amount of quick, garbled and slurred broadcasts (most notably on CTAF) by the more experienced. You get the sense they are boradcasting because they have to; but they're forgetting the importance of the broadcast in the first place. My training airfield shares CTAF with 2 others making the comms very busy. Therefore it doesn't help when all I hear is that someone is heading for my airfield but I don't know where from or what they're aiming for.
In my opinion it's unprofessional, lazy and dangerous.
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I was almost cleaned up last week on decent into YBLT. Student pilot up from Point Cook, advised position as being 8 miles to the SW. I was 10 Miles to the SE a little lower than him. As I was scanning for traffic and completeing some checks somthing didnt feel right. I asked the Seminol of his possition and altitude again and before he could respond he decended directly over the top of me at about 100ft to spare. I had enough wit to get his rego form under his wing. Then he responded with 5 miles to the SW. I got on the radio and told him he had almost 
killed me and some. Also asked if there was a instuctor with him who I hoped might have been able to explain in english what the had just taken place. He did not respond with one more call nor did he complete the aproach or landing into Ballarat. Last I saw him he was in a shallow left turn to the South. Guess what, there was no aircraft to the SW. If you are reading this mate, please get your bearings correct and brush up on your english and one of the most important things, think about what you are going to say before hand. This also includes creating a mental picture before you take off about the difference segments of the flight. Piss poor preparation means piss poor performance. As a young wise instuctor once told me. Never forgot it.
In the past 2 years this is becoming an issue in YBLT..
killed me and some. Also asked if there was a instuctor with him who I hoped might have been able to explain in english what the had just taken place. He did not respond with one more call nor did he complete the aproach or landing into Ballarat. Last I saw him he was in a shallow left turn to the South. Guess what, there was no aircraft to the SW. If you are reading this mate, please get your bearings correct and brush up on your english and one of the most important things, think about what you are going to say before hand. This also includes creating a mental picture before you take off about the difference segments of the flight. Piss poor preparation means piss poor performance. As a young wise instuctor once told me. Never forgot it.In the past 2 years this is becoming an issue in YBLT..
Last edited by Mick.B; 22nd Jan 2009 at 09:16.
Like Robin Pilot, I too am a student pilot. In every other thing I have ever been trained in you can rely on those that are more experienced than you to be able to be used as a guide if you are on the right track.
When it comes to radio calls I have learnt it is usually best to look it up yourself which is a sad fact that a lot of pilots obviously have a lack of respect for the correct way, which makes it harder for us new guys to KNOW the correct way!
When it comes to radio calls I have learnt it is usually best to look it up yourself which is a sad fact that a lot of pilots obviously have a lack of respect for the correct way, which makes it harder for us new guys to KNOW the correct way!
O.S.
Not denying that. I have learned to love AsA documents :P BUT as a new student (I'm talking when I was in the first 5 hours here) you expect that everyone else is (to an extent) doing it by the book.
Not denying that. I have learned to love AsA documents :P BUT as a new student (I'm talking when I was in the first 5 hours here) you expect that everyone else is (to an extent) doing it by the book.
Fair Call! I am not denying the use of good phraseology and your post prompted me to skim through the AIP to refresh my knowledge. If I am ever not sure what to say (depending on if ATC is waiting for a response or not) I will ask my instructor or make do using as plain and simple English as possible. In either case I will promptly check the by the book way once on the ground.
No matter what though as a student pilot it boggles the mind that people have this slack attitude. When a situation like the above occurs (and so far I have never had the tower come back and say err what?), I feel extremely embarrassed as I judge other pilots by their radio calls and assume you all do the same. How do these pilots live with themselves?
No matter what though as a student pilot it boggles the mind that people have this slack attitude. When a situation like the above occurs (and so far I have never had the tower come back and say err what?), I feel extremely embarrassed as I judge other pilots by their radio calls and assume you all do the same. How do these pilots live with themselves?
