Qantas Thought Police
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You are hired, you receieve the manual. You resign, you hand back the manual. In the mean time you do not reveal its contents to anyone.
Instead of just telling us it is wrong expend your answer and tell us why...
Comfy...Exactly what is wrong and who and what is being harmed with these study notes?
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Still R Dinosaurs
EPs have been taught the same way for over forty years.
No modern educational approach...just the same old training methods dreamt up in another century.
As has been pointed out the guy should be invited to join the team and be congratulated for his forward thinking and hard work.
The whole point of training is understanding and application of information.
This guys stuff is a breath of fresh air
No modern educational approach...just the same old training methods dreamt up in another century.
As has been pointed out the guy should be invited to join the team and be congratulated for his forward thinking and hard work.
The whole point of training is understanding and application of information.
This guys stuff is a breath of fresh air
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To start with, I'll make it clear that I am not a fan of the way EP's are taught. I completely agree that creativity and a better system would be great.
I also think that someone who has the ability to present information to the crew in a way that makes them learn for the exam is commendable, and it would be great if this person's skills were harnessed and used to create company training material.
In fact, when it comes down to it, in an Ideal world (which I acknowledge it isn't), study guides shouldn't be necessary, as the EP's exam should already be firm knowledge throughout the year, not just for the exam. We know, however, that the exam doesn't just test that practical knowledge.
HOWEVER, the problem remains. We work for an airline that has certain rules about intellectual property, and about controlled/uncontrolled information. There are risks of dissemination of information to the general public when it is reproduced in a form outside of the approved manuals, especially when the company cannot control the validity of that information. Information Services would not be impressed.
I think if this was a free study guide for all crew, he might have got away with it, and crew would be better off.
Using Qantas copyrighted information, in an uncontrolled document, that he then SELLS, is something the company has every right to stop, and I would think it very remiss of them not to.
I also think that someone who has the ability to present information to the crew in a way that makes them learn for the exam is commendable, and it would be great if this person's skills were harnessed and used to create company training material.
In fact, when it comes down to it, in an Ideal world (which I acknowledge it isn't), study guides shouldn't be necessary, as the EP's exam should already be firm knowledge throughout the year, not just for the exam. We know, however, that the exam doesn't just test that practical knowledge.
HOWEVER, the problem remains. We work for an airline that has certain rules about intellectual property, and about controlled/uncontrolled information. There are risks of dissemination of information to the general public when it is reproduced in a form outside of the approved manuals, especially when the company cannot control the validity of that information. Information Services would not be impressed.
I think if this was a free study guide for all crew, he might have got away with it, and crew would be better off.
Using Qantas copyrighted information, in an uncontrolled document, that he then SELLS, is something the company has every right to stop, and I would think it very remiss of them not to.
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EP Question?
How many coat hangers are allowed to be hung in the P/C J/C toilet.
What an inane moronic question.
This is where EP training is at present......bloody pre school
What an inane moronic question.
This is where EP training is at present......bloody pre school
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How many coat hangers are allowed to be hung in the P/C J/C toilet.
Before one answers, one should take into consideration the following:
- Is the toilet door a bi fold door or a soild door as the hangers would impede the opening and closing of the door.
- Has one completed a risk assessment as to the serviceability of the hook on the back of the door, because if the hangar fell, the passenger would have to bend down to pick it up, exposing them to a possible back strain
- Each and every hangar should be inspected to ensure the white protective cap is fitted to the hook of the hangar, so as not to risk a scratch or eye injury. Crew members should wear safety glasses when carrying out this inspection.
So the question is not as simple as it looks
(im taking the mickey here.... but I dont doubt that some boffin in safety would love this idea)
Before one answers, one should take into consideration the following:
- Is the toilet door a bi fold door or a soild door as the hangers would impede the opening and closing of the door.
- Has one completed a risk assessment as to the serviceability of the hook on the back of the door, because if the hangar fell, the passenger would have to bend down to pick it up, exposing them to a possible back strain
- Each and every hangar should be inspected to ensure the white protective cap is fitted to the hook of the hangar, so as not to risk a scratch or eye injury. Crew members should wear safety glasses when carrying out this inspection.
So the question is not as simple as it looks
(im taking the mickey here.... but I dont doubt that some boffin in safety would love this idea)
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Our Vision is to provide an End-to-End client-centric learning experience. Using Worlds Best Practice to enhance our customer focused outcomes we as a team will utilise both pro-active and passive learning techniques to achieve these goals. Through our Leaders Leading innovations we will become 'A Great Place To Work'.
I actually made this up in 20 seconds over a bottle of red and thinking about some of the tripe we get fed at Airservices. Is this what your manuals are like?
I actually made this up in 20 seconds over a bottle of red and thinking about some of the tripe we get fed at Airservices. Is this what your manuals are like?
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yeah! another great EP question from our
How long do you have to wait before using the plunger on the bodum?
Yeah really important and very "controlled"
intellectual property, and about controlled/uncontrolled information.
Yeah really important and very "controlled"
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cartexchange -
I completely agree that question does not belong in EP's, and if it did in fact appear in the exam, that you should take it first to the managers, and if no response, to CASA.
I completely agree that question does not belong in EP's, and if it did in fact appear in the exam, that you should take it first to the managers, and if no response, to CASA.
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Guys/Gals,
Surely when you study you would not use this 'study kit' as your only resource. It is not controlled and therefore cannot be relied on. Surely you consult the EP manual anyway. Relying on study notes produced by someone else would be crazy.
Surely when you study you would not use this 'study kit' as your only resource. It is not controlled and therefore cannot be relied on. Surely you consult the EP manual anyway. Relying on study notes produced by someone else would be crazy.
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true tempo, however the whole process is flawed.
2 of the "new" instructors actually give out incorrect information during the day!!!! how controlled is that.
re the Bodum!
And yes it is an EP question! and there are more inane questions as well.
I use the Manual and the study notes! and I Will continue to do so.
Recently the manual was incorrectly proof read and important information was omitted( Minimum operating crew details)
So how reliable is the "EP manual"
2 of the "new" instructors actually give out incorrect information during the day!!!! how controlled is that.
re the Bodum!
And yes it is an EP question! and there are more inane questions as well.
I use the Manual and the study notes! and I Will continue to do so.
Recently the manual was incorrectly proof read and important information was omitted( Minimum operating crew details)
So how reliable is the "EP manual"
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He recently emailed a photo he had apparently taken onboard an aircraft of emergency equipment, to those on his mailing list.
It was all with good intentions highlighting inconsistencies but I think you would need to get approval to do such things and maybe he didn't.
I think this alone would have been of concern to the company/CASA.
It was all with good intentions highlighting inconsistencies but I think you would need to get approval to do such things and maybe he didn't.
I think this alone would have been of concern to the company/CASA.
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Photo
Any passenger with a mobile phone in flight mode could do the same thing.
Who contols the document?
CASA or Qantas.
Its only of interest to Pilots and Cabin Crew
Who contols the document?
CASA or Qantas.
Its only of interest to Pilots and Cabin Crew
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HOWEVER, the problem remains. We work for an airline that has certain rules about intellectual property, and about controlled/uncontrolled information.
I think if this was a free study guide for all crew, he might have got away with it, and crew would be better off.
I still don't see the problem because although I agree that the company does own the EP manual and it's intellectual property involved in it's design and procedures covered there has been no theft or misuse.This is nothing more than someone working to make something which exists more efficient.
This is a bit like someone in the office moving the furniture around to make the office more efficient.He is not stealing anything nor removing anything that belongs to the company.If this company information is not supplied to any one outside of the company then there is not theft of intellectual property...pure and simple.
In fact the funny thing that Twiggs and comfy will not tell you is that the company themselves had their own study guide printed some years ago.From memory it was printed that the study guide was not intended to replace or be used as substitute for the company EP manual but was solely intended as a study guide.This meant that you could take this away on trips instead of a 3 Kg manual and which did the company a favour by saving weight in your suitcase.
The only thing was that study guide produced by the company was never as good as the one produced by this chap...and that is probably half the problem here...sour grapes
Twiggs....once again you are taking the company line but that is no surprise is it?
As Ka.Boom said any pax could take that pic and as long as it is not given to the press or any other company or person outside the company what is the problem?
I think this alone would have been of concern to the company/CASA.
Yeah That would do it I guess...
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In Summation
The CC fellow involved did an outstanding job
The company EP presentation is crap
An injunction was over the top
Why not invite the fellow to join the EP department
Too many management noses out of joint
Another way of further disengaing employees.
Just extend the bloody copyright to him
The company EP presentation is crap
An injunction was over the top
Why not invite the fellow to join the EP department
Too many management noses out of joint
Another way of further disengaing employees.
Just extend the bloody copyright to him
Last edited by argusmoon; 27th Oct 2008 at 10:34. Reason: spelling
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Comfy really does have a point about controlled/uncontrolled documents. Anyone willing to disregard this as being important hasn't come on board with ISO 'Quality Management' type procedures or thinking.
It may seem like beaurocratic junk but take for example if the aircraft crew fire extinguisher was relocated and the company 'controlled documents' were ammended as such. If a seperate document is being used in parallel by the crew and it is different it leaves the company and crew wide open.
Or to take a more serious example, an engineer is keeping a photocopied (hence 'uncontrolled') work procedure in his drawer for doing a particular job. An AD comes out which changes the work procedure or some critical aspect and the engineer completely misses it because he is still working off last months' photocopy in his drawer because he couldn't be bothered looking up the manual.
This is serious stuff and has resulted in problems/accidents/incidents and so a company has a duty of care to make sure the chances of these things happening is minimised and CASA should be looking on to make sure companies have systems in place to ensure this also.
I would see the best way through this would be to have Qantas get the guy on board in the training dept so that his kit can be kept up to date and ammendend when necessary in line with company manuals and procedures. That way his training aids get to help everybody in the company and they are totally legitimate. This could only be good for everybody. Maybe the obvious is not always what happens though...!
It may seem like beaurocratic junk but take for example if the aircraft crew fire extinguisher was relocated and the company 'controlled documents' were ammended as such. If a seperate document is being used in parallel by the crew and it is different it leaves the company and crew wide open.
Or to take a more serious example, an engineer is keeping a photocopied (hence 'uncontrolled') work procedure in his drawer for doing a particular job. An AD comes out which changes the work procedure or some critical aspect and the engineer completely misses it because he is still working off last months' photocopy in his drawer because he couldn't be bothered looking up the manual.
This is serious stuff and has resulted in problems/accidents/incidents and so a company has a duty of care to make sure the chances of these things happening is minimised and CASA should be looking on to make sure companies have systems in place to ensure this also.
I would see the best way through this would be to have Qantas get the guy on board in the training dept so that his kit can be kept up to date and ammendend when necessary in line with company manuals and procedures. That way his training aids get to help everybody in the company and they are totally legitimate. This could only be good for everybody. Maybe the obvious is not always what happens though...!
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Bottom line - learn from the company manuals. A guide is just that - a guide.
There is no easy way to pass the exam but by study and being smart enough to know the subject material.
I have written many "guides" over the years for myself for various training events. They are obsolete the second they are written. Beware the amendment cycle.
Remember its not rocket science that is being taught here. It just takes a bit of work.
I wouldn't buy a guide from anyone - I would spend the time learning the subject matter myself. A statement that could be perceived as arrogant/cocky but at the end of the day I have to rely on only my knowledge in the event of an emergency - not the knowledge in some guide that helps me pass an exam.
Think about it.
There is no easy way to pass the exam but by study and being smart enough to know the subject material.
I have written many "guides" over the years for myself for various training events. They are obsolete the second they are written. Beware the amendment cycle.
Remember its not rocket science that is being taught here. It just takes a bit of work.
I wouldn't buy a guide from anyone - I would spend the time learning the subject matter myself. A statement that could be perceived as arrogant/cocky but at the end of the day I have to rely on only my knowledge in the event of an emergency - not the knowledge in some guide that helps me pass an exam.
Think about it.
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Anyone who uses just a study guide is silly, just the same as anyone who relies solely on the website material is silly (hm yes Qantas have their own online guide- which- funnily enough- has had more than a few errors in it which when emailed to the appropriate people, doesn't get a response but mysteriously changes...)
As for people taking photos... pax take photos all the time, what can we do about it- confiscate their cameras?? As long as those things are in the public space o an aircraft they can't really say no- only if it is 'not for personal use'.
Flew Virgin a couple months ago (company flight was full), found their gelley interesting and took a pic of it (yes sad I know but I wanted to show something about it to a mate)... the crew took it for me...!
Iget the point about not using the most recent procedure.. but that's the fault of the person using the guide, not the one making it. Just the same as someone could not bother updating their manuals. Scary how many crew don't do this either!
As for people taking photos... pax take photos all the time, what can we do about it- confiscate their cameras?? As long as those things are in the public space o an aircraft they can't really say no- only if it is 'not for personal use'.
Flew Virgin a couple months ago (company flight was full), found their gelley interesting and took a pic of it (yes sad I know but I wanted to show something about it to a mate)... the crew took it for me...!
Iget the point about not using the most recent procedure.. but that's the fault of the person using the guide, not the one making it. Just the same as someone could not bother updating their manuals. Scary how many crew don't do this either!
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Information Overload
Crew in general get an overload of information.
Any synopsis is helpful as it helps digest the huge amount of stuff that finds its way into company mailboxes.
The updates for EP manuals come thick and fast.
Many of these updates are to compensate for mistakes made in previous updates.
Fortunately the basics stay the same.
A door on a 747 hasnt changed much since the 100 was born.
All this other rubbish about coat hangers and bodums is absurd.
The whole EP training and presentation needs to be overhauled
Any synopsis is helpful as it helps digest the huge amount of stuff that finds its way into company mailboxes.
The updates for EP manuals come thick and fast.
Many of these updates are to compensate for mistakes made in previous updates.
Fortunately the basics stay the same.
A door on a 747 hasnt changed much since the 100 was born.
All this other rubbish about coat hangers and bodums is absurd.
The whole EP training and presentation needs to be overhauled
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This is fast becoming yet another example of a mountain out of a molehill...
Twiggs post about a pic is anecdotal at best and even if true refers to a visual reference to an inconsistency in positioning of safety equipment.
The pic is not a sequential illustration of an engineering or surgical procedure!
This is all about a study aid because the official manual is cumbersome and costly to carry with you on trips.Instead of encouraging this chap the company is clamping down on an innovation which without a doubt helps crew to study and do the job they are paid to do.
The point regarding crew being confused with amendments is concerned is also erroneous.If a crew member does not amend their manual then they will also not amend their notes and this will show in their EP exam's.
I do not know of anyone who has not made notes during study with their manuals.A good example of this is the safety equipment locations.To look at say Fire Extinguishers for each aircraft you have to flick through the various chapters in the manual which is unwieldy,awkward & inconvenient.
Instead the study notes puts all the locations of fire extinguishers for all aircraft on the same page.The benefit of this is obvious and beneficial to anyone trying to study.
The EP manual is just as affected and rendered obsolete as a result of amendments as a study guide is.
This study guide is not theft but instead uses available resources to accomplish a noble goal which instead of being encouraged is being squashed.
The usual suspects in the office do not like it because they cannot take credit for any of it...and that is probably the crux of this situation more than anything else.
I would not be surprised if at some point in the future the company comes out with something very similar (surprise....surprise) and all of a sudden is a great idea to those very people who are dismissive of it at the moment.
Twiggs post about a pic is anecdotal at best and even if true refers to a visual reference to an inconsistency in positioning of safety equipment.
The pic is not a sequential illustration of an engineering or surgical procedure!
This is all about a study aid because the official manual is cumbersome and costly to carry with you on trips.Instead of encouraging this chap the company is clamping down on an innovation which without a doubt helps crew to study and do the job they are paid to do.
The point regarding crew being confused with amendments is concerned is also erroneous.If a crew member does not amend their manual then they will also not amend their notes and this will show in their EP exam's.
I do not know of anyone who has not made notes during study with their manuals.A good example of this is the safety equipment locations.To look at say Fire Extinguishers for each aircraft you have to flick through the various chapters in the manual which is unwieldy,awkward & inconvenient.
Instead the study notes puts all the locations of fire extinguishers for all aircraft on the same page.The benefit of this is obvious and beneficial to anyone trying to study.
I have written many "guides" over the years for myself for various training events. They are obsolete the second they are written. Beware the amendment cycle.
This study guide is not theft but instead uses available resources to accomplish a noble goal which instead of being encouraged is being squashed.
The usual suspects in the office do not like it because they cannot take credit for any of it...and that is probably the crux of this situation more than anything else.
I would not be surprised if at some point in the future the company comes out with something very similar (surprise....surprise) and all of a sudden is a great idea to those very people who are dismissive of it at the moment.
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I, for one, am not dismissive of the idea of having a study guide/synopsis to assist in learning the manuals (yes, the EP's manual is a hell of a document).
This doesn't detract from the point that 1) Its an uncontrolled document (which prevents it from being provided to crew, even if it was made by an EP's instructor) and 2) Someone is making money out of something that he is clearly not permitted to do (go look up the restrictions Qantas, like all other major companies, has on the use of intellectual property).
This doesn't detract from the point that 1) Its an uncontrolled document (which prevents it from being provided to crew, even if it was made by an EP's instructor) and 2) Someone is making money out of something that he is clearly not permitted to do (go look up the restrictions Qantas, like all other major companies, has on the use of intellectual property).