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Where does it explain these 'different' symbols in the Jepps?
It's much faster and easier for us to preempt them IMO.
But, that is a distraction from the point I was making. Which is:
If you are IFR, IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO "REQUEST TRAFFIC" AT ANY TIME.
The words "request traffic" are redundant. Do you "request traffic" as part of your IFR taxi report?
Do you seriously believe that if you omit those words, Centre won't give you any traffic information?
"Visual on top" is my pet hate. Report visual when visual.
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It is obvious that there can not be a written phrase for everything. My understanding of the "Visual" call was so the controllers can issue us with a Visual Approach.
le Pingouin, nearly every time I have been asked to sight and follow or sight and pass, I have been asked "are the conditions suitable for......" or "report sighting".
le Pingouin, nearly every time I have been asked to sight and follow or sight and pass, I have been asked "are the conditions suitable for......" or "report sighting".
Quote:
It's much faster and easier for us to preempt them IMO.
The Green Goblin, you seem to be saying that it is better to obtain traffic closer to the actual TOPD point - rather than 2-3 minutes earlier. I just don't buy this.
It's much faster and easier for us to preempt them IMO.
The Green Goblin, you seem to be saying that it is better to obtain traffic closer to the actual TOPD point - rather than 2-3 minutes earlier. I just don't buy this.
But when flying in remote areas often centre 'forget' to pass on traffic for you before your TOD.
As the descent checklist is usually run about 10 miles prior to your nominated TOD the traffic will usually be requested as per the reasons I stated in my original post. I would say at least 50% of the time in a remote area you will have to request the traffic from centre as you will pass your TOD before they pass it on.
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... when flying in remote areas often centre 'forget' to pass on traffic for you before your TOD
I would say at least 50% of the time in a remote area you will have to request the traffic from centre as you will pass your TOD before they pass it on.
If thats the case FGD then why is everyone doing it 
If you're flying from terminal area to terminal area then it will never be an issue, but if you get out and do some 'real' flying you may be uttering those nasty words yourself!
Safe flying ace
If you're flying from terminal area to terminal area then it will never be an issue, but if you get out and do some 'real' flying you may be uttering those nasty words yourself!
Safe flying ace
GG,
Why don't you kill two birds with one stone and report 'approaching TOD XXXX' when you are 10 miles from TOD? (Isn't that what the AIP says anyway?)
They will give you traffic for descent and you can commence your descent 2-3 mins later without any further calls on centre.
Why don't you kill two birds with one stone and report 'approaching TOD XXXX' when you are 10 miles from TOD? (Isn't that what the AIP says anyway?)
They will give you traffic for descent and you can commence your descent 2-3 mins later without any further calls on centre.
le Pingouin, nearly every time I have been asked to sight and follow or sight and pass, I have been asked "are the conditions suitable for......" or "report sighting".
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by Monopole
My understanding of the "Visual" call was so the controllers can issue us with a Visual Approach.
Some believe that one cannot call "VISUAL" outside 30 nm but this belief is erroneous. If at, say, 60 nm one can see the destination city, is confident of navigating visually to the field, meeting the aforementioned conditions, one can call "VISUAL".
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What about "??? TWR, VH?, READY IN TURN"
How about, " READY I'm moving in front of all youse" or "READY I'm taxiing straight"
Maybe just "READY" ........ mmmmmmmmm
How about, " READY I'm moving in front of all youse" or "READY I'm taxiing straight"
Maybe just "READY" ........ mmmmmmmmm
.
When you live....
In flight conditions
Ok, I'll bite.
On first contact with approach, when required to report in flight conditions, how would you describe VMC but with a layer of cloud (overcast or scattered on inbetween) below you? I use 'on top' (different to visual on top but that's by the by)?
Back to some of the earlier bugbears, I heard several sky gods yesterday get queried over the read back of 'nine thousand' because it wasn't clear. One genius, when asked to confirm niner thousand replied with 'nine thousand' which didn't confirm anything at all. Was surprised that ATC let it pass - maybe it was slightly clearer to them second time around.
UTR
Approach, XXXX on descent to 7000 with Echo visual on top
Back to some of the earlier bugbears, I heard several sky gods yesterday get queried over the read back of 'nine thousand' because it wasn't clear. One genius, when asked to confirm niner thousand replied with 'nine thousand' which didn't confirm anything at all. Was surprised that ATC let it pass - maybe it was slightly clearer to them second time around.
UTR
Green Goblin, you are required to report position to ATS prior to changing levels outside controlled airspace. This is when they will give you traffic. You don't need to say "request traffic", just tell them your position and what you are about to do, they will always come back with a traffic statement. If you are in controlled airspace then they may wait until you are approaching class G before giving traffic or handing you off to the low level controller for traffic.
UTR, isn't the call of "visual" made to indicate you can make a visual approach, therefore if you are "visual on top" then you are not visual at all (unable to navigate with reference to the ground or water) and should say nothing.
UTR, isn't the call of "visual" made to indicate you can make a visual approach, therefore if you are "visual on top" then you are not visual at all (unable to navigate with reference to the ground or water) and should say nothing.
I think you will find stating "ready in turn" is a good phrase as sometimes the twr guys get very busy when handling grnd & twr together as one freq & they are distracted & believe yr the next to take off when in fact you are behind another A/C. I have had this exact situation & told to line up, hard to do when I am No2 in line!
Look ALL of us use non std R/T procedures from time to time, when under duress we all tend to say things that are different, humans we are not machines & often act accordingly to the situation at hand. BUT having said that there are some atrocious R/T procedures from pvt toy planes right the way up to international jet carriers.
The "KISS" method works well say as little as possible if safe to do so:-)
Wmk2
Look ALL of us use non std R/T procedures from time to time, when under duress we all tend to say things that are different, humans we are not machines & often act accordingly to the situation at hand. BUT having said that there are some atrocious R/T procedures from pvt toy planes right the way up to international jet carriers.
The "KISS" method works well say as little as possible if safe to do so:-)
Wmk2
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The response to this thread further proves my theory that even if you’re the ace from space but sound like a d*ckhead on the radio, that’s what others will think you are.Guard: There is no reference to a guard frequency in AIP. However most military aircraft have a UHF radio that can Tx/Rx on the selected frequency, and Rx on 243.0 MHz otherwise referred to as “guard” frequency. This is where use of the term “guard” may have come from.
Request Traffic: AIP GEN page 3.4 – 33, down the bottom shows the phrase “request traffic” is an “approved” phrase.
Visual on Top: AIP ENR page 1.1 – 20 paragraph 11.1.6 states that on first contact with Approach Control the pilot should report “flight conditions”. I can’t find anywhere else in AIP that expands on this. Therefore in my opinion; “in cloud” means exactly that, “visual” means I am clear of cloud and can see the ground/water, and “visual on top” means I am clear of cloud but can’t see the ground/water because there’s cloud underneath. I consider this pertinent information to pass to ATC.
The phraseology listed in AIP cannot cover all possible situations. Sometimes “plain speech” is the most efficient way of getting the message across. That’s my justification for using the phrases above to describe “flight condition”.
And my pet hate……….."climbing to flight levels”.
WTF is this supposed to mean? “Hey everybody, I’m flying a pressurised aircraft and can operate above 10,000FT”. Another one of these “kool” phrases to use. How about actually stating what level you’re climbing to as per AIP. Page GEN 3.5 – 55 if you’re too lazy to find it yourself.
When you live....
UTR, isn't the call of "visual" made to indicate you can make a visual approach, therefore if you are "visual on top" then you are not visual at all (unable to navigate with reference to the ground or water) and should say nothing.
Identified - report assigned level, flight conditions, if appropriate, and receipt of ATIS (code).
UTR
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1) OK no one has even touched on HF.
Why do all the majors use non-standard position reports on HF. When SELCAL check fails, and I have to listen to all those reports, it is highly frustrating to try to explain to a co-pilot, that what the American Airlines (or QF or NZ etc) guy just said is in fact not correct. Reference "NEXT" as the last word in the phrase...
i.e. "BN, ABC, XXX AT YYYY, MAINTAINING FL XXX, ESTIMATING XX AT YYYY, XXXX NEXT"
Someone show me where that is in AIP.
2) Another pet hate - use of "REFERENCE THE OMNI" in a departure report.
3) Another one - why do QLINK insist on making CTAF calls on CENTRE. They seem to be the only ones who insist on doing this - I cannot see any benefit to it other than clogging up a busy CEN freq.
4) On the clearance topic, I do "Request clearance" if OCTA and approaching the Class C step - too often recently have I had to enter a hold to remain OCTA because ATC have not given me a clearance in time.
5) On the request traffic topic, I do request traffic when conducting practice instrument approaches and about to depart for next loc - if I can get this before the Missed Approach (workload pending), then I can conduct the missed approach and depart on track, without having to hold, "REQUEST IFR TRAFFIC FOR DEPARTURE".
Why do all the majors use non-standard position reports on HF. When SELCAL check fails, and I have to listen to all those reports, it is highly frustrating to try to explain to a co-pilot, that what the American Airlines (or QF or NZ etc) guy just said is in fact not correct. Reference "NEXT" as the last word in the phrase...
i.e. "BN, ABC, XXX AT YYYY, MAINTAINING FL XXX, ESTIMATING XX AT YYYY, XXXX NEXT"
Someone show me where that is in AIP.
2) Another pet hate - use of "REFERENCE THE OMNI" in a departure report.
3) Another one - why do QLINK insist on making CTAF calls on CENTRE. They seem to be the only ones who insist on doing this - I cannot see any benefit to it other than clogging up a busy CEN freq.
4) On the clearance topic, I do "Request clearance" if OCTA and approaching the Class C step - too often recently have I had to enter a hold to remain OCTA because ATC have not given me a clearance in time.
5) On the request traffic topic, I do request traffic when conducting practice instrument approaches and about to depart for next loc - if I can get this before the Missed Approach (workload pending), then I can conduct the missed approach and depart on track, without having to hold, "REQUEST IFR TRAFFIC FOR DEPARTURE".
Another one - why do QLINK insist on making CTAF calls on CENTRE. They seem to be the only ones who insist on doing this - I cannot see any benefit to it other than clogging up a busy CEN freq.
It is an important call as the may be VFR traffic transiting the area that could be a conflict to the inbound aircraft.
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Cougar- re: NEXT - It's not from the AIP
Try Jeppesen WWT ATC pg. 451
Item 6 in a position Report
----Ensuing Significant Position- "(position)/NEXT"---
That's where you'll find it.
But of course, if you wished to use the AUS AIP then "FOLLOWING POINT - (position)" would also be correct.
In QF, as do most international carriers, we use the Jepp manuals, so perhaps you might now like to tell your co-pilot that it is you, whom is wrong.
Try Jeppesen WWT ATC pg. 451
Item 6 in a position Report
----Ensuing Significant Position- "(position)/NEXT"---
That's where you'll find it.
But of course, if you wished to use the AUS AIP then "FOLLOWING POINT - (position)" would also be correct.
In QF, as do most international carriers, we use the Jepp manuals, so perhaps you might now like to tell your co-pilot that it is you, whom is wrong.
Last edited by Trent 972; 19th Nov 2009 at 04:50. Reason: add link