Merged: Pending clearance??
Sprucegoose
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I hear the big red rat (supposedly the professionals) often call "clear of all runways" even though there is only one runway
You guys crack me up sometimes, I'm no genius but at least I can count to two!
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Originally Posted by ITCZ
The problem with "professional" pilots and non-standard phraseology is that it is a product of a lack of discipline.
Reading an AIP to get the right calls rolling off the tongue, even unfamiliar ones, is a pretty simple task. Its all in there, in black and white.
Sure, we all blurt out a dumb call every now and then.
But there is a difference between a skilled and disciplined pilot who occasionally fumbles when distracted, and the lazy b-gger that never really bothered to keep up with the requirements.
Like any other laziness, it is not just confined to one area. Show me a pilot that farts around with a basic position report, and I'll show you a pilot that probably doesnt know separation standards at "non-towered" aerodromes, doesn't use manufacturer or company standard operating procedures and techniques, etc.
And thats not just my opinion. It is what Rob Helmreich found in his LOSA project - "teams that violate procedures or make other non-consequential errors are more than 1.4 times more likely to commit other types of offences."
Helmreich RL. Culture and error. In: Safety in aviation: the management commitment: proceedings of a conference. London: Royal Aeronautical Society.
So sloppy radio work = lack of required discipline = unprofessional aviator.
And it is so simple to fix. Read the AIP and apply some discipline. Then observe improvements in other areas of your operation as discipline spills over and cleans up your act in general!
Reading an AIP to get the right calls rolling off the tongue, even unfamiliar ones, is a pretty simple task. Its all in there, in black and white.
Sure, we all blurt out a dumb call every now and then.
But there is a difference between a skilled and disciplined pilot who occasionally fumbles when distracted, and the lazy b-gger that never really bothered to keep up with the requirements.
Like any other laziness, it is not just confined to one area. Show me a pilot that farts around with a basic position report, and I'll show you a pilot that probably doesnt know separation standards at "non-towered" aerodromes, doesn't use manufacturer or company standard operating procedures and techniques, etc.
And thats not just my opinion. It is what Rob Helmreich found in his LOSA project - "teams that violate procedures or make other non-consequential errors are more than 1.4 times more likely to commit other types of offences."
Helmreich RL. Culture and error. In: Safety in aviation: the management commitment: proceedings of a conference. London: Royal Aeronautical Society.
So sloppy radio work = lack of required discipline = unprofessional aviator.
And it is so simple to fix. Read the AIP and apply some discipline. Then observe improvements in other areas of your operation as discipline spills over and cleans up your act in general!
Ah! "Pending Clearance" I didnt realise it had become so popular 
wow! I'm famous. I threw this in because I was sick of ATC coming back and telling me to remain outside controlled airspace, when departing blackstump in the middle of the desert.
wow! I'm famous. I threw this in because I was sick of ATC coming back and telling me to remain outside controlled airspace, when departing blackstump in the middle of the desert.
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XEPTU,
We are having it belted into us to say" Remain clear of class X airspace blah blah" regardless of whether you say pending clearance or not.
For those that like to ask for traffic and a code, don't be surprised if you get "squawk 2000"
We are having it belted into us to say" Remain clear of class X airspace blah blah" regardless of whether you say pending clearance or not.
For those that like to ask for traffic and a code, don't be surprised if you get "squawk 2000"
yeah fully understand mate, I just try to streamline things to minimise time on the trigger. I hate the changing to CTAF calls in multicom aircraft too. why would one choose at 15 miles from the aerodrome to say its ok you dont need to tell me about IFR traffic now. If I hear you, great, thanks muchly, if I dont, you tried thanks anyway.
The "request F350 if available" thing is akin to begging in non RVSM approved aircraft, even though we're fitted with all the gear, no-ones got around to ticking the request approval box. It's a psychological thing, we can't help it
The "request F350 if available" thing is akin to begging in non RVSM approved aircraft, even though we're fitted with all the gear, no-ones got around to ticking the request approval box. It's a psychological thing, we can't help it
Flying git,
If you are a fair-dinkum student you should get a new instructor or preferably, change schools.
The safety record of aviation is founded on self discipline by all involved. No, the radio stuff discussed here is not going to kill someone but as others (above) have said, there is a correlation between a lack of discipline and safety incidents.
Head-on collisions are pretty rare and everyone knows to keep to the left. Should we get rid of the white lines on freeways? ...no, because - as you said -
When you get older and you're raising toddlers (or teenagers) you will understand the importance of setting a standard or a boundary and enforcing it.
When you are a chief pilot you will understand that in many ways, the distinction between toddlers (or teenagers) and pilots is often very, very slim.
.....
The safety record of aviation is founded on self discipline by all involved. No, the radio stuff discussed here is not going to kill someone but as others (above) have said, there is a correlation between a lack of discipline and safety incidents.
Head-on collisions are pretty rare and everyone knows to keep to the left. Should we get rid of the white lines on freeways? ...no, because - as you said -
it's written in the AIP's but few use it to the letter. Humans I find are not machines..
When you are a chief pilot you will understand that in many ways, the distinction between toddlers (or teenagers) and pilots is often very, very slim.
.....
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 2nd Aug 2008 at 11:40. Reason: ...because spelling is as important as good R/T
Yeah right.
Maybe if you changed schools you'd see the difference and perhaps, in time, understand my point.
As for the rest of your post, refer comment above re: difference between pilots and toddlers
Maybe if you changed schools you'd see the difference and perhaps, in time, understand my point.
As for the rest of your post, refer comment above re: difference between pilots and toddlers
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by flyinggit
I have my doubts as to whether there would be a single pilot out there that will fly, communicate & behave exactly as per the regs & the sops all the time
The plethora of readbacks that miss the required because they're so full of crap that's not required.
- Why read back "copied no IFR traffic" for fcuks sake!!!!!
- Why ask for a code on departure? It's not required until they give it to you.
- "If available"??????
- "ABC on climb to FL180 pending clearance to FLxxx".
- "DEF left FLyyy". Left it for what? On descent, climb? Where to?
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I believe that MOST of my radio calls a within the ball park of AIP requirements, however I never say FIFE, and rarely say NIN-ER. Does that, therefore, make me a:
The Baffler
lazy b-gger that never really bothered to keep up with the requirements.
The Baffler
baffler:
YES
YES
I got bolloxed by my first CP in my first job after my first Bungles when my call joining the Battle of Britain (ie: the circuit) was something like...
"aaaaaah um XYZ joining Crosswind and ummm.... ahhh I'll go after you, Paul and ummmm, ahhh, can I slip in front of you Geoff?
Such sterling airmanship was displayed for not only all my colleagues (who also hear the reaming, I think) but for the blue team as well
The following 2 years of my career (in hindsight) proved the point about general standards, discipline, and outcomes.
When I started getting my **** together, a lot of other things fell into line too.
"aaaaaah um XYZ joining Crosswind and ummm.... ahhh I'll go after you, Paul and ummmm, ahhh, can I slip in front of you Geoff?
Such sterling airmanship was displayed for not only all my colleagues (who also hear the reaming, I think) but for the blue team as well
The following 2 years of my career (in hindsight) proved the point about general standards, discipline, and outcomes.
When I started getting my **** together, a lot of other things fell into line too.
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Great thread....
RT procedures are not studied as such from beginning of training, I believe. Student pilots hear what their bullet-proof instructor says, and then blindly repeats it. No study of the AIP / Jepps.....
Pull out the 900 section of your Jepps and study! The RT for which airspace, when, why how and precisely what is all there.
It's always been a major issue for me when pilots decide which rules or SOPs they will choose to follow, and which they will choose to ignore. Do it right, every time and it becomes a matter of course and (that more and more illusive word!) "professional".
I had a simple but unfortunate method which I used to employ when the hints and requests to study didn't work: "If you can't use correct RT, then you won't make any radio calls." Now, when you're doing 8 sectors, no AP, in central Oz in summer, I found (some) FOs would get the point and study....
Pull out the 900 section of your Jepps and study! The RT for which airspace, when, why how and precisely what is all there.
It's always been a major issue for me when pilots decide which rules or SOPs they will choose to follow, and which they will choose to ignore. Do it right, every time and it becomes a matter of course and (that more and more illusive word!) "professional".
I had a simple but unfortunate method which I used to employ when the hints and requests to study didn't work: "If you can't use correct RT, then you won't make any radio calls." Now, when you're doing 8 sectors, no AP, in central Oz in summer, I found (some) FOs would get the point and study....
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"I have my doubts as to whether there would be a single pilot out there that will fly, communicate & behave exactly as per the regs & the sops all the time".
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Flyinggit
"'Gun' oh I'm trying to do it right or the best way I know how. R/T to me is all about common sense not just about what's written in the regs. It's hard enough to get it right when a lot of the majors (international as well) say something different almost all the time when replying to an ATC directive for Eg."
Believe it or not, the "majors" , especially some of the internationals (English as a second language)are not the standard, AIP is.
'HL' yr remarks don't help either,unprofessionalism goes well beyond the radio as you display here. It's my opinion that I feel nobody does it by the book & I can only form that opinion by flying in the same airspace as you & everyone else listening to the same non std R/T procedures.
Clearly you haven't been around long enough to form or express an educated opinion (not your fault). If you just flog around the skies parotting the crap that comes out of the mouths of some of these operators because you find it to hard to understand and/or work to the real standards then you and your ilk are destined to prepetuate the verbal wankfest the rest of us are complaining about.
Believe it or not, the "majors" , especially some of the internationals (English as a second language)are not the standard, AIP is.
'HL' yr remarks don't help either,unprofessionalism goes well beyond the radio as you display here. It's my opinion that I feel nobody does it by the book & I can only form that opinion by flying in the same airspace as you & everyone else listening to the same non std R/T procedures.
Clearly you haven't been around long enough to form or express an educated opinion (not your fault). If you just flog around the skies parotting the crap that comes out of the mouths of some of these operators because you find it to hard to understand and/or work to the real standards then you and your ilk are destined to prepetuate the verbal wankfest the rest of us are complaining about.
Last edited by flying-spike; 3rd Aug 2008 at 01:05. Reason: typo
Sprucegoose
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OK! Rather than just going around in circles, why don't we put up what we think the correct call shoule be! I'll go first, anyone else feel free to add/correct/subtract etc, then once we have got a consensus on each call, start another, might be a useful learning tool for those who wish to learn.
"ML Centre, Hughes 421 departed the Black Stump 47, tracking 123, climbing to FL230, estimating GRMPY at 13" and as we are proceeding into controlled airspace suffix this with "REQUEST CLEARANCE".
Refs: AIP GEN 5.14.8 (paragraph 4) and GEN 5.10 (paragraph 1).
Anyone else care to add?
"ML Centre, Hughes 421 departed the Black Stump 47, tracking 123, climbing to FL230, estimating GRMPY at 13" and as we are proceeding into controlled airspace suffix this with "REQUEST CLEARANCE".
Refs: AIP GEN 5.14.8 (paragraph 4) and GEN 5.10 (paragraph 1).
Anyone else care to add?
My too sense
I don't even go that far, HH, simply because this is what happens 99% of the time:
Zep to ML CEN 123.45: "ML CEN Zep 641 departed Styx 62, tracking 415, climbing FL210, estimate ZEPPY 78."
ML CEN to Zep: "Zep 641, No IFR traffic, squawk 8898, approaching flight level 180 contact CEN 121.50 for airways clearance."
That 1% of the time when things are slightly different, ATC have your flight plan, which says you want to fly at FL210. They know that you need a clearance above FL180...thus we set the preselector to 18,000 to make sure we don't punch controlled airspace in case we forget to contact them for a clearance, or we are on the appropriate area frequency and ATC have got other things on their mind and forget to give us our clearance. When the altimeters go "ping", we'll remind ATC we need a clearance if they haven't already given us one.
Zep to ML CEN 123.45: "ML CEN Zep 641 departed Styx 62, tracking 415, climbing FL210, estimate ZEPPY 78."
ML CEN to Zep: "Zep 641, No IFR traffic, squawk 8898, approaching flight level 180 contact CEN 121.50 for airways clearance."
That 1% of the time when things are slightly different, ATC have your flight plan, which says you want to fly at FL210. They know that you need a clearance above FL180...thus we set the preselector to 18,000 to make sure we don't punch controlled airspace in case we forget to contact them for a clearance, or we are on the appropriate area frequency and ATC have got other things on their mind and forget to give us our clearance. When the altimeters go "ping", we'll remind ATC we need a clearance if they haven't already given us one.
Sprucegoose
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ML CEN to Zep: "CONFIRM TRACKING 415?"
PS: Don't confuse people with talk of the altitude preselector...
PS: Don't confuse people with talk of the altitude preselector...