Merged: Pending clearance??

[Cougar]

Mav - since we are calling a spade a spade, where is it written to make an all stations broadcast on CENTRE like QLINK do? If so, why are they the only RPT/charter op that make such a call?

Trent - interested to hear that - why do AIP and Jepp differ then? I thought (and assumed) it was an ICAO standard?

[bubble.head]

Mav - since we are calling a spade a spade, where is it written to make an all stations broadcast on CENTRE

Company's manual

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

On the clearance topic, I do "Request clearance" if OCTA and approaching the Class C step - too often recently have I had to enter a hold to remain OCTA because ATC have not given me a clearance in time

I had an interesting one yesterday!

Details in the system for an IFR flight in the BE35 from Toowoomba direct Redcliffe at A070 (LSA 5100).

Called Centre taxying Toowoomba and was told: XXX, BN Centre, code yyyy, call Amberley Approach zzz.zz on departure for clearance

So I called Amberley Appr on departure with a departure call and a request for a clearance, only to be told: Call Clearance Delivery on ***.** for clearance.

So I called Clearance Delivery with a departure call and a request for a clearance.

Them: XXX, do you intend to decend into Redcliffe OCTA below the control steps

Me: XXX, ahhhh negative (thinking why the **** would I be on an IFR flightplan if I was gonna descend OCTA below the control area steps)

Them: XXX, what's your descent point for Redcliffe?

Me: 30 miles Redcliffe

Them: XXX confirm you wish to track direct Redcliffe across the Brisbane Control Area

Me: XXX, affirmative

Them: XXX, cleared present position direct Redcliffe, seven thousand, call Amberley Approach on zzz.zz now

Sheeezh!

Dr

PS: As it turned out I broke out of the overcast at about 2500' on descent into YRED.

[Cougar]

Bubblehead - exactly my point - if every company makes up their own calls, then we move away from standardisation.

The QLINK call does not add to safety - in fact it clogs up already busy frequencies. That's why they made discrete freqs for CTAFs.

[le Pingouin]

Cougar, what do you think the appropriate freq is for QLINK to make a TOPD from call from F240 & 80 miles out from destination?

[Mr Whippy]

Cougar - that call is a company directive. Like the Qantas wing inspection light thread, there's no point in complaining here.

[Cougar]

Pingoiun, the standard calls as everyone else does.

Rather than make a long winded CTAF-like broadcast, why not just say the standard, approaching top of descent call, CEN will pass traffic etc. Like everyone else does!

Whip - yep agreed, thought it was fairly pertinent to the topic however.

[le Pingouin]

Cougar, how else is the opposite direction VFR at A095 supposed to be aware of the DASH8? Particularly if they haven't made any previous position reports on area.

[Capt Claret]

Cougar try reading the AIP instead of just arguing what you want.

Jeppesen ATC, AU-719, 6.5 says;
"Before descending from controlled into Class G airspace and before separation with any aircraft operating near the base of controlled airspace can be compromised, the PIC of an IFR flight must report position, level, intentions & estimate for next position/destination to the ATS unit providing services in class G airspace."

Therefore, one basically has to make a position report at some point in CTA with a statement of intention.

[Monopole]

Capt Claret is of course correct, but IMHO, I dont think the standard call itself is overly appropriate.

Before descending from controlled into Class G airspace and before separation with any aircraft operating near the base of controlled airspace can be compromised, the PIC of an IFR flight must report position, level, intentions & estimate for next position/destination to the ATS unit providing services in class G airspace

(my bolding). A report is made toATC. As soon as every bug smasher flying around the cotton fields hear 'Centre' they stop listening themselves. A broadcast is NOT required when leaving CTA into OCTA, but alot of people roll the Report and Broadcast into one eg, Centre and All stations Timbucktoo..........

[Cougar]

CC,
Yep, a report - not a broadcast. And when identified this simply is "approaching TOD", or "request descent" etc. I.e. most of the East Coast QLINK ops.

ATC can see you on the screen, you are identified.

Pingouin, the VFR traffic should be looking out the window. They are VFR. ATC should pass them as traffic to the IFR aircraft descending OCTA if workload and time permits.

[maverick22]

Cougar,

I don't see what your problem with the call is. I had this happen the other day. Leaving controlled airspace on descent into busy CTAF. We made an all stations broadcast on centre and got several replies from VFR traffic that were transiting the area, but weren't on the CTAF as they didn't need to be. The traffic replied to our call, and from there we arranged separation and that was that. Had we not made the call, we probably wouldn't have known about the traffic until we got a traffic advisory on TCAS, and that's assuming they had a transponder! And as for centre seeing us on radar, radar coverage is marginal at low level in this particular area, and once again it depends on whether others have their transponder on

[Aerohooligan]

To all those people posting regarding Qlink calls on Centre frequency, I thought I'd add my two cents:

I appreciate people who do make those calls, frequency chatter permitting - I routinely fly VFR in Class E airspace at relatively high levels (A085, A095) and monitor centre frequency to maintain situational awareness. If for whatever reason I'm not also monitoring the applicable CTAF frequency it's very helpful to know where these guys are. On a few occasions it has helped avoid TCAS warnings and traffic conflicts with E-jets, Dash 8s and B1900s on descent as I am transitting in the area of a busy CTAF at these levels.

I feel that anything that even has the potential to increase everyone's general situational awareness can only be a good thing. Please keep in mind though that as I stated, I support the idea that it should be as appropriate and when prudent if the frequency is particularly busy.

[FGD135]

On the idiotic usage of “request traffic”:

Request Traffic: AIP GEN page 3.4 – 33, down the bottom shows the phrase “request traffic” is an “approved” phrase.

Yes, that is the phrase you would use if you were VFR and wished to obtain traffic information.

But, if you are IFR, you will NEVER NEED TO USE THIS PHRASE AS CENTRE WILL GIVE YOU TRAFFIC AUTOMATICALLY. YOU DO NOT NEED TO ASK FOR IT.

Notify them that you are about to change level or track and they will give you traffic – automatically – without you having to ask for it!

It is a requirement that they give you traffic. They are not doing it because you have requested it!

Speaking of requirements - IFR pilots - did you know it was a requirement that you advise ATS when about to climb, descend, change level or change track?

From hearing my fellow IFR pilots on the radio – those that insist on “requesting traffic” - it would appear that 90% of them do not quite understand or appreciate this requirement.

To them, perhaps, they think the requirement is on them to obtain traffic.

No, the requirement is for you to advise ATS. They can then assess the traffic situation and then make traffic advisories to you and other aircraft.

When you “request traffic for descent” you are not, strictly speaking, notifying them that you are about to descend – or when, for that matter. All you are doing is “hinting” that you are about to descend.

Sloppy, unprofessional and ill-disciplined.

A possible excuse that you may have is that there is no documented phraseology in the AIP for these situations.

There used to be. Before CASA threw out the Australian phraseology section and replaced it with the ICAO one, there was this phrase for level changes:

Centre, VH-ABC, climbing/descending to (level) in (minutes) minutes.

And there was a similar phrase for descent for landing.

[Capt Claret]

No radar coverage when I descend into Ayers Rock or Gove. And, TCAS cannot be used for traffic separation purposes.

Related to this thread wrt compliance, it's surprising how many pilots when passed traffic, usually for a sight & pass, or a reason that climb/descent is not immediately available, reply with "yeah, got 'im on TCAS". Big deal. Saying that is as useful & relevant as saying the engines are still operating as Mr/s ATS can't use the info to qualify for separation.

[le Pingouin]

CC,
Yep, a report - not a broadcast. And when identified this simply is "approaching TOD", or "request descent" etc. I.e. most of the East Coast QLINK ops.

That is not a position report! Refer to Capt Claret's AIP post: note the word position. Note the word must

ATC can see you on the screen, you are identified.

And makes not one iota of difference to position reporting requirements. An IFR is still required to make position reports OCTA, identified or not.

Pingouin, the VFR traffic should be looking out the window. They are VFR. ATC should pass them as traffic to the IFR aircraft descending OCTA if workload and time permits.

How do you propose I pass traffic off radar on unknown VFR or on a nil transponder VFR in radar coverage? Most aerodromes have no usable radar coverage anywhere near them.

[The Green Goblin]

But, if you are IFR, you will NEVER NEED TO USE THIS PHRASE AS CENTRE WILL GIVE YOU TRAFFIC AUTOMATICALLY. YOU DO NOT NEED TO ASK FOR IT.

Just like they will hand you to the next frequency before you run out of range, or provide you with sigmets for your destination in a timely manner. They will also never let an IFR aircraft bust CTA because they have not given them a clearance in time either would they?

Sometimes you need to give them a nudge to get what you need in a timely manner for the operation of your aircraft.

My pet hate, being told the primary HF frequency, establishing two way comms in the air, then being unable to establish two ways on the ground. You then swap to a lower/higher frequency to cancel your sarwatch, get a reply from flightwatch (with a readability of at least a 3) to contact them on primary HF XXXX (which you just tried numerous times to contact them on)

[Cougar]

Pingouin, who said anything about a Position Report? You Sir, are putting words in my mouth...

Ref AIP ENR:
11.1.3 Pilots of IFR flights leaving classes A, C, D or E airspace should,
before entering Class G airspace, contact the ATS unit providing
services in that airspace.

So, it should go like this.

"CEN, ABC, request descent" - because you are identified and in controlled airspace.

"ABC, cleared to leave control area on descent, no reported IFR traffic, passing 8500 contact CEN on xxx.x"

You reply.

Passing 8500 you contact the new freq. They don't need your estimate as you are identified so TAATS tells ATC the ETA. If they lose radar contact and can't work it out, they will ask for it.

I just don't get where you guys are getting your info from - "identified" = no position reports, "Radar service terminated" = position reports required.

[Mach E Avelli]

As well as 'climbing to flight levels' (useless info) and notwithstanding what the AIP says, stating that you are climbing to a level for which you do not yet have a clearance triggers the usual 'remain clear of controlled airspace yatter yatter', requiring yet another acknowledgement. By simply saying: 'departed xxx at..., estimating yyy at..., request FL.. you should be giving ATC enough of what they need and the confidence (usually) that you are well aware that the level you desire will need a clearance. They don't tell you 'not cleared to land yet', so I dunno why they have to feel obliged to warn you to remain clear of CTA.
If yyy is not on a direct track from the departure point, it may be relevant to state what direction you are tracking, but when it is in a straight line there should only be one possible track so that too seems to be inserting extra words just to sound kool (and of course to show that you know the AIP word-perfect, which clearly I do not).

[le Pingouin]

Cougar: AIP ENR 62.1:

Before descending from controlled into Class G airspace and before separation with any aircraft operating near the base of controlled airspace can be compromised, the pilot in command of an IFR flight must report position, level, intentions and estimate for next position/destination to the ATS unit providing services in Class G airspace. If the report is made using HF radio, a broadcast must be made on the appropriate area VHF frequency.

There is no exemption for being identified & is mandatory.


Identified = no position reports only applies in A,C & D airspace. For E & G position reports are required for IFR, identified or not.


AIP ENR 10.2:

Except when identified, position reports are required for all aircraft in classes A, C and D airspace, and for IFR flights or flights using the IFR Pick‐up procedure after initial contact with ATC in classes E and G airspace.


That paragraph is particularly badly worded. The "except when identified" only applies to A, C & D airspace. The comma after "D airspace" breaks the link to "except when identified" for the rest of the sentence.

Read it as:
Except when identified, position reports are required for all aircraft in classes A, C and D airspace.

Position reports are required for IFR flights or flights using the IFR Pick‐up procedure after initial contact with ATC in classes E and G airspace.

Ain't English great!