Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA
Moderator
Thanks for your help and cooperation ALAEA Fed Sec. 
With the tools available to Moderators, a simple search identifies multiple user names - and points to the exact computer terminal being used, whether in Qantas, Toulouse or anywhere else in the world.
If directed by a Court, PPRuNe could be required to reveal that information, making a user personally liable at law for any malicious or libelous post. Hiding behind an "anonymous" Yahoo or Hotmail address gives no protection.
Tail Wheel
With the tools available to Moderators, a simple search identifies multiple user names - and points to the exact computer terminal being used, whether in Qantas, Toulouse or anywhere else in the world.
If directed by a Court, PPRuNe could be required to reveal that information, making a user personally liable at law for any malicious or libelous post. Hiding behind an "anonymous" Yahoo or Hotmail address gives no protection.
Tail Wheel
Join Date: May 2008
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fed Sec Wrote
"In other news we have been informed that all Qantas management strike breakers have been added to a list held by MAS management for those engineers that are "unemployable". Their names sit next to the Newport strike breakers pilfered from Malaysia."
Fed Sec Can you elaborate on above?
Do you endorse these actions? your post could be interpreted as influencing Freedom of association.
How do you justify your comments?
What lists have been given to MAS, and by who?
You have some knowledge of this, can you enlighten us all?
FED SEC should ne banned....gooooone , given the current environment i think you are sailing close to the wind.
I suppose the Ombudsman will decide, i look foward to your response
Fed Sec Can you elaborate on above?
Do you endorse these actions? your post could be interpreted as influencing Freedom of association.
How do you justify your comments?
What lists have been given to MAS, and by who?
You have some knowledge of this, can you enlighten us all?
FED SEC should ne banned....gooooone , given the current environment i think you are sailing close to the wind.
I suppose the Ombudsman will decide, i look foward to your response
ALAEA Fed Sec,
I am all for your industrial action and support you guys 100% - it is obviously having an enormous affect on Qantas dispatch reliability and on time performance. However, one must ask how long can it go on for? We must be losing pax (and money) hand over fist at the moment, and it's going to take years to get them back, especially premium pax from the likes of Singapore and Emirates.
If this goes on much longer and none of us will even have jobs to worry about...
Just take it easy guys, the result will come. As a great man once said - "sit by the bank of a river long enough and watch the dead bodies of your enemies go floating by".
If this goes on much longer and none of us will even have jobs to worry about...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sydney
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You may be right TL. But all we are doing right now is choosing to stay away from work on our day off ! Hell I even did overtime after shift the other day when I was hauled into an office and stood over by Two stormtroopers disguised as QF management !!
I smiled and thanked them for their offer of extra pay, just as my Fed Sec advised us to.
So if the company crumbles because a small percentage of it's workforce decides to enjoy their days off at home for a "few weeks", then we really are in the poo !
And who's responsible............? Me for having a day off ?????
FOG.
I smiled and thanked them for their offer of extra pay, just as my Fed Sec advised us to.
So if the company crumbles because a small percentage of it's workforce decides to enjoy their days off at home for a "few weeks", then we really are in the poo !
And who's responsible............? Me for having a day off ?????
FOG.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To all the LAMEs sticking to their guns out in the Qantas world - WELL DONE
This tussle is a fight against oppression as it is for a payrise, time to rid ourselves and our company of an outdated wage policy for its workers whilst its open slather for the execs.
To Tailwheel and Tidbin, thank you for your patience and restraint this forum has been of great benefit to LAMEs all over Aus and the world.
I will be proud to recall that "I was there and took part when then the LAMEs took on the might of Qantas and WON !!!!"
"Keep'em flying Boys"
This tussle is a fight against oppression as it is for a payrise, time to rid ourselves and our company of an outdated wage policy for its workers whilst its open slather for the execs.
To Tailwheel and Tidbin, thank you for your patience and restraint this forum has been of great benefit to LAMEs all over Aus and the world.
I will be proud to recall that "I was there and took part when then the LAMEs took on the might of Qantas and WON !!!!"
"Keep'em flying Boys"
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Transition Layer
If we both understand the impact of what hi-speed tape correctly states
why does QF management refuse to negotiate? On an annualised basis, the cost of this decision will exceed the $350 million that it was so desparate to ensure didn't end up in it's employee's pay packet. That's all employees, not just the engineers.
Almost as staggering is the QF board's failure to act. According to QF management, the board fully supports management's actions. Will they be so supportive when the full extent of damage done is revealed? They are responsible too!!!!
If we both understand the impact of what hi-speed tape correctly states
all we are doing right now is choosing to stay away from work on our day off !
Almost as staggering is the QF board's failure to act. According to QF management, the board fully supports management's actions. Will they be so supportive when the full extent of damage done is revealed? They are responsible too!!!!
I'm at LAX, trying to get back to Oz.
Been told QF12 is not going again tonight. Not sure of the reasons.
Calling the local number to check flight status and they just say without hesitation "lots of cancellations and delays because of the engineers"
They say some staff have been waiting 5 days to get out and might be a few days yet.
Sux to be stuck here but fully support the LAME's and their action.
Best of luck guys..
Been told QF12 is not going again tonight. Not sure of the reasons.
Calling the local number to check flight status and they just say without hesitation "lots of cancellations and delays because of the engineers"
They say some staff have been waiting 5 days to get out and might be a few days yet.
Sux to be stuck here but fully support the LAME's and their action.
Best of luck guys..
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ACS
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
middleman
Thanks for your support! 
Sorry to hear you're stuck in LAX - seems AirNair hasn't quite saved the day like M had hoped...
As you probably know, QF blaming engineer strikes on delays is a complete lie as the ALAEA have suspended all stoppages until after World Youth Day and the Australian school holidays.
You may want to inform your fellow frustrated travellers that mismanagement of an engineering operation that relied too heavily on overtime is a more feasible cause of their inconvenience...
Sorry to hear you're stuck in LAX - seems AirNair hasn't quite saved the day like M had hoped...
As you probably know, QF blaming engineer strikes on delays is a complete lie as the ALAEA have suspended all stoppages until after World Youth Day and the Australian school holidays.
You may want to inform your fellow frustrated travellers that mismanagement of an engineering operation that relied too heavily on overtime is a more feasible cause of their inconvenience...
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On the chopping board.
Posts: 929
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Middleman
Sorry to hear mate.
Another point is that the more blame that can be dumped on us by management, then the more chance they think they have of having our PIA cancelled.
Another point is that the more blame that can be dumped on us by management, then the more chance they think they have of having our PIA cancelled.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That really puts it in perspective.
If only we could get that in an add or brought up in parliament.
So if the company crumbles because a small percentage of it's workforce decides to enjoy their days off at home for a "few weeks", then we really are in the poo !
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: here
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reality of the situation is that we have a system that has been under a lot of strain for a prolonged period with only bandaid stopgaps to address structural problems.
By this I mean:
- We have aircraft tooling spread around the country and rarely is it in the port it is needed. So when the tooling is in Avalon, for example, but is required in Sydney, it needs to be transported up.
- The same is true of spares.
- We have less manpower to work more aircraft (either through attrition or redeployment) The advent of the A330 crews in Sydney Base and now the construction of Team A380 have further reduced crew numbers. The A330 guys however, do work on the Boeings as well when their workload permits.
Go back 10 years and the average crew size was 1 + 10; now most crews are 1 + 5 or 6. (Good luck if you want leave with these crew numbers! Oh that's right...all leave has been cancelled until further notice!) But we don't need more people..just work more OT!
- We have aircraft that are getting older and therefore require more maintenance. Yet when we find defects we are accused of "Going Slow".
- We have an OHS system that commands us to work with two hands tied behind our backs and hopping on one foot... even though the way we have done things in the past has worked very well.
- We have programs like Lean Sigma and 5S foistered upon us because some boffin "learned about it at Uni so it must be good.. "
I could go on but I don't wish to bore you further.
By this I mean:
- We have aircraft tooling spread around the country and rarely is it in the port it is needed. So when the tooling is in Avalon, for example, but is required in Sydney, it needs to be transported up.
- The same is true of spares.
- We have less manpower to work more aircraft (either through attrition or redeployment) The advent of the A330 crews in Sydney Base and now the construction of Team A380 have further reduced crew numbers. The A330 guys however, do work on the Boeings as well when their workload permits.
Go back 10 years and the average crew size was 1 + 10; now most crews are 1 + 5 or 6. (Good luck if you want leave with these crew numbers! Oh that's right...all leave has been cancelled until further notice!) But we don't need more people..just work more OT!
- We have aircraft that are getting older and therefore require more maintenance. Yet when we find defects we are accused of "Going Slow".
- We have an OHS system that commands us to work with two hands tied behind our backs and hopping on one foot... even though the way we have done things in the past has worked very well.
- We have programs like Lean Sigma and 5S foistered upon us because some boffin "learned about it at Uni so it must be good.. "
I could go on but I don't wish to bore you further.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So the company are blaming us for all the delays
Well so what!
They have never told the truth anyway so
why would they start now?
And what do we care anyhow.
All it means is that we are getting the credit for
industrial action we never had to take!
The company and the LAME's both know the
truth and the pax are going to be pissed off
regardless of who's fault it is, so really
what does it matter. This isn't a popularity contest.
If any of this got taken to the commission it would
be proven in a heart beat that we were not taking
any action, and that gents is the only forum that
we need to worry about.
In regards to getting the info out in the media, what
you have to realize is that you can make a statement
to the media but they choose what to print and
it boils down to what slant the editor wants on
a particular story. Remember QF has a massive
advertising budget and if the paper wants a share
of that money it had better not offend the hand
that feeds it.
People have stated that the assn should take out ads
in the paper. It costs about 60k for a full page ad in
the SMH or tele and even if you do have the money to fund it
they may not even run it as it could conflict with they view of
the owners of the paper!
So as I see it best we let QF blame us for all the delays
and we get our coverage for free!!
Never mind if it isn't the truth.
Maintain the Rage
confrence
Well so what!
They have never told the truth anyway so
why would they start now?
And what do we care anyhow.
All it means is that we are getting the credit for
industrial action we never had to take!
The company and the LAME's both know the
truth and the pax are going to be pissed off
regardless of who's fault it is, so really
what does it matter. This isn't a popularity contest.
If any of this got taken to the commission it would
be proven in a heart beat that we were not taking
any action, and that gents is the only forum that
we need to worry about.
In regards to getting the info out in the media, what
you have to realize is that you can make a statement
to the media but they choose what to print and
it boils down to what slant the editor wants on
a particular story. Remember QF has a massive
advertising budget and if the paper wants a share
of that money it had better not offend the hand
that feeds it.
People have stated that the assn should take out ads
in the paper. It costs about 60k for a full page ad in
the SMH or tele and even if you do have the money to fund it
they may not even run it as it could conflict with they view of
the owners of the paper!
So as I see it best we let QF blame us for all the delays
and we get our coverage for free!!
Never mind if it isn't the truth.
Maintain the Rage
confrence
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: here
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Post count..
Sorry to go off thread, but...has anybody else noticed their post count is not accurate? Mine seems to indicate about double what I have actually made.. 
Sorry if this has been mentioned before..
Sorry if this has been mentioned before..
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: brisneyland
Age: 48
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Arbitration?
Fedsec is there such a thing as compulsary arbitration these days?
Given the constant fleet expansion and personell reduction 5% would seem to be well justified on a productivity basis if the arbitration commission still exists.
Given the constant fleet expansion and personell reduction 5% would seem to be well justified on a productivity basis if the arbitration commission still exists.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hicksville, Alabama
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots EBA
Does anyone else view the thread about the QFLH pilots EBA8 on the main forum, a very interesting and dangerous development in the current war between the ALAEA members and QF?
Here’s how I see it. It is pretty obvious to me that the AIPA are about to put to their members an agreement between them and QF that will include a headline number of 3%. If this happens, and it will, then your campaign is gone, history, kaput! Watch them ramp up the media war.
No matter what sweeteners are included in the AIPA document, even if it makes a total increase of 10% with bullsh*t super/profit share etc, the headline number will be used to squash your campaign.
If the AIPA members vote in the 3% headline, then scrotum face has the ammunition to attack you. “How dare you guys take the company to the brink, while the pilots, who are just as important as you, only take 3”
If the AIPA members reject the 3% headline, then scrotum face still has all the ammunition he needs. “I told you the world would end if the engineers tried to get 5%...we can’t afford it!” AIPA members drag it out with the company, then finally give in and take 3 because they will NEVER go on strike/OT bans etc. Scrotum face has more ammo. “See, at least the pilots who are just as important as you, have seen the light about the world about to end and got some sense into themselves and accepted the boards 3% wages policy”
If the ALAEA or the AIPA can’t break the 3% wages policy, then I will resign from my union. And I’ve been a union member all my working life. If a collective of arguably the most skilled and important employees of QF, can’t break through the greed and hypocrisy filled “board approved wages policy”, on the back of a recent referendum election on industrial relations, then unionism is truly finished in Australia. I may as well use my few hundred dollars a year union subscription to buy an ipod.
Is this the silver bullet scrotum face has been looking for? I hope the ALAEA exec are talking to the AIPA exec.
Here’s how I see it. It is pretty obvious to me that the AIPA are about to put to their members an agreement between them and QF that will include a headline number of 3%. If this happens, and it will, then your campaign is gone, history, kaput! Watch them ramp up the media war.
No matter what sweeteners are included in the AIPA document, even if it makes a total increase of 10% with bullsh*t super/profit share etc, the headline number will be used to squash your campaign.
If the AIPA members vote in the 3% headline, then scrotum face has the ammunition to attack you. “How dare you guys take the company to the brink, while the pilots, who are just as important as you, only take 3”
If the AIPA members reject the 3% headline, then scrotum face still has all the ammunition he needs. “I told you the world would end if the engineers tried to get 5%...we can’t afford it!” AIPA members drag it out with the company, then finally give in and take 3 because they will NEVER go on strike/OT bans etc. Scrotum face has more ammo. “See, at least the pilots who are just as important as you, have seen the light about the world about to end and got some sense into themselves and accepted the boards 3% wages policy”
If the ALAEA or the AIPA can’t break the 3% wages policy, then I will resign from my union. And I’ve been a union member all my working life. If a collective of arguably the most skilled and important employees of QF, can’t break through the greed and hypocrisy filled “board approved wages policy”, on the back of a recent referendum election on industrial relations, then unionism is truly finished in Australia. I may as well use my few hundred dollars a year union subscription to buy an ipod.
Is this the silver bullet scrotum face has been looking for? I hope the ALAEA exec are talking to the AIPA exec.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Arbitration would not be kind to us. We would end up with a model dispute resolution procedure that takes away the power of the AIRC to arbitrate.
We would most likely end up with more than 3% but backpay would not be a given. We think there are better ways to attain a fair wagerise and are comfortable with the position we currently find ourselves in.
The AIRC can only order arbitrtion on our agreement if the Workplace Relations Minister cancels our bargaining period. This could be done on grounds of National interest which is one thing we are attempting to avoid at all costs.
It's quite easy to sit on the sidelines and say "cmon ramp it up" but we have many other factors that are considered when decisions are made.
Next meeting is now on Thursday in Melbourne. 1030AM.
We would most likely end up with more than 3% but backpay would not be a given. We think there are better ways to attain a fair wagerise and are comfortable with the position we currently find ourselves in.
The AIRC can only order arbitrtion on our agreement if the Workplace Relations Minister cancels our bargaining period. This could be done on grounds of National interest which is one thing we are attempting to avoid at all costs.
It's quite easy to sit on the sidelines and say "cmon ramp it up" but we have many other factors that are considered when decisions are made.
Next meeting is now on Thursday in Melbourne. 1030AM.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: OZ
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kotoyebe
An interesting view but has nought to do with us.
While I understand the AIPA have struck a deal or so the rumours go.
While I have not seen it, the murmurings are the usual, not all crew on all fleets are looked after same with 1 fleet benefiting better than others.
QF tried this approach with the LAMEs with 50% doing well and it was knocked back.
The pilots are split across 2 unions so I doubt they could pull anything off without being undermined by the other. Secondly any bans pilots put on will have an immediate effect and look heavy handed unlike our PIA, which is an accumulative effect which until recently ACS management denied OT bans could hurt the business at all.
While the APIA will publicly support the ALAEA I am sure they will tow the line as I think behind closed doors they know due to the 2 points above that they could not win anything more than what is on offer plus a few sweeteners. I will gladly be proved wrong when the document sees the light of day but I won't hold my breath.
The media war you mention can NOT be won by us as its people missing their flights and that is hard to put a positive spin on this
Plus there is no comparison between engineers and pilots.
If you wish to compare chalked up hours worked for pay etc or compare my wage against a 3rd year 2nd officer on the 744.
These things will make the company look cheap as there are more pilots than LAMEs so I think these figure will never make the press as it is not in QFs advantage to do so.
QF pilots I am not having a go at you nor am I comparing our plights as I see it the only thing we have in common is the name stitched into our collar.
Good luck in yours as I am sure you wish us well in ours.
Here’s how I see it. It is pretty obvious to me that the AIPA are about to put to their members an agreement between them and QF that will include a headline number of 3%. If this happens, and it will, then your campaign is gone, history, kaput! Watch them ramp up the media war
An interesting view but has nought to do with us.
While I understand the AIPA have struck a deal or so the rumours go.
While I have not seen it, the murmurings are the usual, not all crew on all fleets are looked after same with 1 fleet benefiting better than others.
QF tried this approach with the LAMEs with 50% doing well and it was knocked back.
The pilots are split across 2 unions so I doubt they could pull anything off without being undermined by the other. Secondly any bans pilots put on will have an immediate effect and look heavy handed unlike our PIA, which is an accumulative effect which until recently ACS management denied OT bans could hurt the business at all.
While the APIA will publicly support the ALAEA I am sure they will tow the line as I think behind closed doors they know due to the 2 points above that they could not win anything more than what is on offer plus a few sweeteners. I will gladly be proved wrong when the document sees the light of day but I won't hold my breath.
The media war you mention can NOT be won by us as its people missing their flights and that is hard to put a positive spin on this
Plus there is no comparison between engineers and pilots.
If you wish to compare chalked up hours worked for pay etc or compare my wage against a 3rd year 2nd officer on the 744.
These things will make the company look cheap as there are more pilots than LAMEs so I think these figure will never make the press as it is not in QFs advantage to do so.
QF pilots I am not having a go at you nor am I comparing our plights as I see it the only thing we have in common is the name stitched into our collar.
Good luck in yours as I am sure you wish us well in ours.
Last edited by Bolty McBolt; 15th Jul 2008 at 07:20. Reason: Edited due someone not having a sense of humour