Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA
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Insider Trader
Because of years of effort by the airline to divide and conquer. This is certainly not unique to LAMEs, it occurs Company wide. However, Company wide, is the same feeling of abuse, by a management team driven by greed and hell bent on repressing their workforce.
Yes it is. More interesting is the number viewing the thread, thousands, I believe.
Thanks for the guidance. I believe it is a democratic vote and I suggest there is alot to debate but to never try to influence a vote.
That is being continually undermined by the antics DC/MH. I'm sure most LAMEs would look forward to prosperity and security in their workplace but how is that being perpetuated by current policies? A new blue strategy map?
Let's have a guess at which manager Insider Trader might be? Me first - DM perhaps GH.
How on earth can you possibly sit at the bargaining table with a powerful entity such as Qantas when you can not agree about conditions amongst yourselves.
What is most interesting however is the numbers of the ALAEA membership not in this forum voicing an opinion
i would suggest that they are resigned to voting 'YES' to the in principle agreement, just to move on and concentrate on the future.
just to move on and concentrate on the future.
Let's have a guess at which manager Insider Trader might be? Me first - DM perhaps GH.
Hatched Chickens?
G’day Insider Trader, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of LAME voting intention as outlined in post #354. I would suggest that it is somewhat rash of you to make such conclusions based solely on the content of postings on a rumour forum. If you talk directly with a large cross section of LAMEs you will find that a majority yes vote is by no means a certainty. One shouldn’t count one’s chickens before they have hatched. Indeed, one shouldn't assume one's LAME's will eventually run out of puff.
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First they came
First they came for heavy Maintenance and I did not speak out for I wasn't in Heavy Maintenance.
Then they came for the other operator's contracts, and I did not speak out for i had no A340
Then they came for 737, and I did not speak out for I had no 737
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.
Without unity they will prevail, you can think about yourselves selfishly if you want, but you will not stop them, without a united front WE will LOSE.
All members should stand united, and the association MUST act in our interest or be held accountable. I don't like whats happening and I will speak out, but if our association embarks on dirty filthy labour back hand deals and handshakes for promises of who knows what then they must be held accountable.
All I have seen from our leaders since the meeting with some government officials is INACTION.
They say it's their mandate to tear up AWAs, that implies it is their mandate to give us a fair go. Is 3% in a climate of soaring interest rates and worker oppression a fair go?
Oh yeah the first bit is not my work, It was written by Martin Niemöller
It was about when the nazis rounded up people to ultimately take to Auschwitz. It adapts very well to this situation doesn't it? Evil happens when good people do nothing.
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Then they came for the other operator's contracts, and I did not speak out for i had no A340
Then they came for 737, and I did not speak out for I had no 737
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.
Without unity they will prevail, you can think about yourselves selfishly if you want, but you will not stop them, without a united front WE will LOSE.
All members should stand united, and the association MUST act in our interest or be held accountable. I don't like whats happening and I will speak out, but if our association embarks on dirty filthy labour back hand deals and handshakes for promises of who knows what then they must be held accountable.
All I have seen from our leaders since the meeting with some government officials is INACTION.
They say it's their mandate to tear up AWAs, that implies it is their mandate to give us a fair go. Is 3% in a climate of soaring interest rates and worker oppression a fair go?
Oh yeah the first bit is not my work, It was written by Martin Niemöller
It was about when the nazis rounded up people to ultimately take to Auschwitz. It adapts very well to this situation doesn't it? Evil happens when good people do nothing.
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
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What's with having the BNE hangar 3 roster agreement forming
a part of the eba heads of agreement?
I can't see why anyone other than those affected should vote on it.
It's not surprising the way the NO vote sentiment is intensifying.
Unless what i see on the smoko room table becomes more equitable,
i'm voting it down.
a part of the eba heads of agreement?
I can't see why anyone other than those affected should vote on it.
It's not surprising the way the NO vote sentiment is intensifying.
Unless what i see on the smoko room table becomes more equitable,
i'm voting it down.
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Insider (DM)
You're a disillusioned individual... Don't get your dreams mixed up with reality.
Most will vote NO and we will be in there for the long run.
What is most interesting however is the numbers of the ALAEA membership not in this forum voicing an opinion, which is by far and away the majority of you. It would appear that apathy has set in amongst your group, and i would suggest that they are resigned to voting 'YES' to the in principle agreement, just to move on and concentrate on the future. And good luck to them, i say.
You're a disillusioned individual... Don't get your dreams mixed up with reality.
Most will vote NO and we will be in there for the long run.
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Not Good Enough This Time
Present QF Management have a culture of "screwing" sections of the business down until they start to fail, then turning it back half a turn. Tried to check-in for a flight lately? Wondered why baggage doesn't arrive at the same time and location as the pax? Seen the number of flights canned because of no Tech Crew? Ever imagined that you could provide better service when day after day they cram as many pax onto a flight as they can with the least no. of cabin crew as possible?
It's the same model QE management are rolling out. Ever heard of world best practice being achieved by engineers who :-
1) Have to carry out HM work in different locations a 100km apart depending on a daily workload.
2) Run a major base with a permanent O/T crew who work on scheduled A-check aircraft.
3) Change rosters and crews around every time a new aircraft comes into the shed for a check.
4) Don't have the manpower / licence coverage to change an engine on an aircraft the airline has been operating for over 30 years.
The list could go on and on. It's the same story. QE management want world's best practice by the least number of people possible, with the least possible training, being paid the least possible renumeration, while being supplied with the bare minimum of equipment/facilities.
This EBA is about achieving the above. They benchmark our pay and conditions in Asia, while benchmarking their pay and conditions out of the USA. Even after a 27% pay rise, GD will not agree to wage restraint for himself for the next 15 months. It's been 26 months since I had a pay rise!
Vote NO. Short Haul pilots voted down their eba twice. Jetstar pilots have voted down their eba. Against all the dooms day predictors, "this is the best you will get", their agreements have been improved.
It's time to take a stand and get the renumeration that is fair and reasonable.
It's the same model QE management are rolling out. Ever heard of world best practice being achieved by engineers who :-
1) Have to carry out HM work in different locations a 100km apart depending on a daily workload.
2) Run a major base with a permanent O/T crew who work on scheduled A-check aircraft.
3) Change rosters and crews around every time a new aircraft comes into the shed for a check.
4) Don't have the manpower / licence coverage to change an engine on an aircraft the airline has been operating for over 30 years.
The list could go on and on. It's the same story. QE management want world's best practice by the least number of people possible, with the least possible training, being paid the least possible renumeration, while being supplied with the bare minimum of equipment/facilities.
This EBA is about achieving the above. They benchmark our pay and conditions in Asia, while benchmarking their pay and conditions out of the USA. Even after a 27% pay rise, GD will not agree to wage restraint for himself for the next 15 months. It's been 26 months since I had a pay rise!
Vote NO. Short Haul pilots voted down their eba twice. Jetstar pilots have voted down their eba. Against all the dooms day predictors, "this is the best you will get", their agreements have been improved.
It's time to take a stand and get the renumeration that is fair and reasonable.
I'm not sure when you Gentlemen will be voting on this matter, but I've been following your discussions with interest and have an observation or two to make.
1. Your new Executive seems to me to be working well. The only possible criticism (which may be totally unfounded anyway) is that they just might have blinked when the God (GD) descended from Mt. Olympus to speak to youse mere mortals.
It's an old trick - called a "circuit breaker" - introducing a new player to a negotiation at the last minute to break a deadlock. And of course I would bet my left one that the Executive were entreated by QF to "deal in good faith", "show integrity and professionalism", and all the other blather that your previous executive tried to palm off at you.
Frankly my dears, any time you hear the words "integrity", "Professionalism", "Good Faith" in the context of a negotiation, run for the door, because you know then that they are about to screw you. Again it's an old trick with a twist - they are making a moral appeal to your better nature - which is irrelevent in a negotiation.
The twist is that "Good Faith" is a legal concept and you had better always say that you are dealing in good faith because it can have serious legal implications if you don't - even when you know you are dealing with lying devious sunofabitches, but "showing good faith" doesn't require you to accept a reaming, unlike what your previous executive told you.
To put it another way, provided you "walk the talk" in a negotiation you can behave like the meanest, most ruthless, despicable carnivore on the planet - that's what merchant bankers do for a living, and some of them (and, it appears Qantas Management) take great pleasure in creating pain and misery for other people in the process.
So my point is, if you don't like what is being served up, then it is perfectly acceptable to politely say no. You have not committed a sin, been unprofessional, been greedy, shown bad faith, destroyed the credibility of the entire Rudd Government, shown contempt for the travelling Australian public, ruined the company, destroyed Australian Aviation, destroyed the Australian economy, caused an increase in interest rates, or anything else your previous executive would have told you and what the company will tell you and anyone else stupid enough to listen.
To put it yet another way. Why are you voting at all if the outcome is so predetermined? You have a vote because you are expected to decide Fellas.
Make your own mind up without fear, although I am quite sure that Qantas management are getting ready right now for a double dose of fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) for you to swallow. Probably going to try and involve the Government too I would expect.
Good luck.
1. Your new Executive seems to me to be working well. The only possible criticism (which may be totally unfounded anyway) is that they just might have blinked when the God (GD) descended from Mt. Olympus to speak to youse mere mortals.
It's an old trick - called a "circuit breaker" - introducing a new player to a negotiation at the last minute to break a deadlock. And of course I would bet my left one that the Executive were entreated by QF to "deal in good faith", "show integrity and professionalism", and all the other blather that your previous executive tried to palm off at you.
Frankly my dears, any time you hear the words "integrity", "Professionalism", "Good Faith" in the context of a negotiation, run for the door, because you know then that they are about to screw you. Again it's an old trick with a twist - they are making a moral appeal to your better nature - which is irrelevent in a negotiation.
The twist is that "Good Faith" is a legal concept and you had better always say that you are dealing in good faith because it can have serious legal implications if you don't - even when you know you are dealing with lying devious sunofabitches, but "showing good faith" doesn't require you to accept a reaming, unlike what your previous executive told you.
To put it another way, provided you "walk the talk" in a negotiation you can behave like the meanest, most ruthless, despicable carnivore on the planet - that's what merchant bankers do for a living, and some of them (and, it appears Qantas Management) take great pleasure in creating pain and misery for other people in the process.
So my point is, if you don't like what is being served up, then it is perfectly acceptable to politely say no. You have not committed a sin, been unprofessional, been greedy, shown bad faith, destroyed the credibility of the entire Rudd Government, shown contempt for the travelling Australian public, ruined the company, destroyed Australian Aviation, destroyed the Australian economy, caused an increase in interest rates, or anything else your previous executive would have told you and what the company will tell you and anyone else stupid enough to listen.
To put it yet another way. Why are you voting at all if the outcome is so predetermined? You have a vote because you are expected to decide Fellas.
Make your own mind up without fear, although I am quite sure that Qantas management are getting ready right now for a double dose of fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) for you to swallow. Probably going to try and involve the Government too I would expect.
Good luck.
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I would take the 3% if it also involved the end for MH. I am sick and tired of the continual erosion of our working conditions with the 'new and improved' policies straight out of MH's textbook. Here are some gems:
Having to apply for type courses like its a new job. (What happened to promotion will be based on merit, as our ppm states)
Slowly removing our QF overseas line station guys and replacing them with locals. (Yeah good one, that wont cost you much what with the $300,000 over nighters).
The list could go on but in the end I have had enough. There is nothing in this eba for me. I will be voting accordingly.
I just want to work like we did 5-10 years ago when all we had to complain about was lack of stands, and our people were proud of what we achieved on a daily basis....
Having to apply for type courses like its a new job. (What happened to promotion will be based on merit, as our ppm states)Slowly removing our QF overseas line station guys and replacing them with locals. (Yeah good one, that wont cost you much what with the $300,000 over nighters).The list could go on but in the end I have had enough. There is nothing in this eba for me. I will be voting accordingly.
I just want to work like we did 5-10 years ago when all we had to complain about was lack of stands, and our people were proud of what we achieved on a daily basis....
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“There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you cant take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you’ve got to make it stop! And you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!”
Now, no more talking. We're going to march in singing "We Shall Overcome." Slowly; there are a lot of us. Up here to the left -- I didn't mean the pun. - Mario Savio
It lacks passion in print. Watch the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcx9BJRadfw
Inspiring.
Now, no more talking. We're going to march in singing "We Shall Overcome." Slowly; there are a lot of us. Up here to the left -- I didn't mean the pun. - Mario Savio
It lacks passion in print. Watch the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcx9BJRadfw
Inspiring.
Thread Starter
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Troops Not Happy?
I see that the masses are not happy??
We have had the visit from GD……seen it all before…….just a softener!
Got rid of the distasteful clauses………seen it all before………….the company probably didn’t really want them………….they were just a negotiating points!
Came back to the troops with only 3%..............seen it all before………….it seems its all we are going to get……………….we better try and sell it to them……………but didn’t the troops say not to come back until we had 5%...........seen it all before.......lets try to sell it to them anyway. Oh s**t we don’t have the cowboy anymore to do the sale.
Itookdamoney may have his time in the spotlight yet……….not to mention the rest that may be waiting in the wings???????
Remember all………….becoming a LAME is a privilege not a RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! The sooner we realise this, the better off we will be. Many other airlines give you the privilege of becoming a LAME, when and if they feel there is a vacancy available, and you have gone through the relevant application and interview process and are eventually chosen for that privilege, if you are lucky enough.
I have been a LAME for almost 40 years now, let’s face it; I did an apprenticeship which was sorter than most plumbers. Sat basic examinations in which the content was mostly covered during my apprenticeship. Was placed on a type courses, placed in an air conditioned classroom, taught for 6 to 7 hours a day and paid my shift penalties during this course. In some cases I was accommodated and transported in a very amicable manner. By my early twenties I was earning more than my tradesman father could have ever imagined earning. By my early forties I was earning more than some professional engineers. I consider myself no better and no worse and a good quality tradesman. OK, given that I work on ships of the sky, I need to be a little more meticulous. But at the end of the day I was a young kid that completed year ten and pursued a trade. I was fortunate that I chose the prestigious world of aircraft, because it has offered me a great lifestyle. I have worked on multi million dollar machines, have been trained whilst being paid, been paid handsomely whilst travelling abroad, met many interesting people and worked with even more. I am now in my fifties and believe that the choice I made back then was a blessing in disguise.
We cannot continue to have our snouts firmly embedded in the troth …………..after all we are only mere mortals.
If we continue down this road we will merely price ourselves out of existance!!
We have had the visit from GD……seen it all before…….just a softener!
Got rid of the distasteful clauses………seen it all before………….the company probably didn’t really want them………….they were just a negotiating points!
Came back to the troops with only 3%..............seen it all before………….it seems its all we are going to get……………….we better try and sell it to them……………but didn’t the troops say not to come back until we had 5%...........seen it all before.......lets try to sell it to them anyway. Oh s**t we don’t have the cowboy anymore to do the sale.
Itookdamoney may have his time in the spotlight yet……….not to mention the rest that may be waiting in the wings???????
Remember all………….becoming a LAME is a privilege not a RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! The sooner we realise this, the better off we will be. Many other airlines give you the privilege of becoming a LAME, when and if they feel there is a vacancy available, and you have gone through the relevant application and interview process and are eventually chosen for that privilege, if you are lucky enough.
I have been a LAME for almost 40 years now, let’s face it; I did an apprenticeship which was sorter than most plumbers. Sat basic examinations in which the content was mostly covered during my apprenticeship. Was placed on a type courses, placed in an air conditioned classroom, taught for 6 to 7 hours a day and paid my shift penalties during this course. In some cases I was accommodated and transported in a very amicable manner. By my early twenties I was earning more than my tradesman father could have ever imagined earning. By my early forties I was earning more than some professional engineers. I consider myself no better and no worse and a good quality tradesman. OK, given that I work on ships of the sky, I need to be a little more meticulous. But at the end of the day I was a young kid that completed year ten and pursued a trade. I was fortunate that I chose the prestigious world of aircraft, because it has offered me a great lifestyle. I have worked on multi million dollar machines, have been trained whilst being paid, been paid handsomely whilst travelling abroad, met many interesting people and worked with even more. I am now in my fifties and believe that the choice I made back then was a blessing in disguise.
We cannot continue to have our snouts firmly embedded in the troth …………..after all we are only mere mortals.
If we continue down this road we will merely price ourselves out of existance!!
Mr Headcone is a troll.
A simple check of his earlier posts reveals this little gem (18/12/07).
And this little gem:
....and posting on Pprune since December 2007.
You can go away now.
A simple check of his earlier posts reveals this little gem (18/12/07).
Clipped & Mahatmacoat,
I am neither an employee of Qantas nor a member of the ALAEA, but have had close ties to both for many years.
It seems that some, like yourselves, prefer to live in denial than to face reality.
I am neither an employee of Qantas nor a member of the ALAEA, but have had close ties to both for many years.
It seems that some, like yourselves, prefer to live in denial than to face reality.
I have been a LAME for almost 40 years now
You can go away now.
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Ok, so we've had the vast bulk of the ALAEA EBA info meetings, with Sydney completed yesterday and only Avalon to go today.
The union should have a pretty good idea of the members' feeling with regard to the EBA.
Any attendees at the Melbourne and Sydney meetings over the last couple of days care to shed some light on the outcomes of these meetings? What was the general consensus in each case? YES? NO?
And if it's no, then what next?
The union should have a pretty good idea of the members' feeling with regard to the EBA.
Any attendees at the Melbourne and Sydney meetings over the last couple of days care to shed some light on the outcomes of these meetings? What was the general consensus in each case? YES? NO?
And if it's no, then what next?
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The general feel is a very strong NO. Not one hand went up for a yes. Ol geoffrey may have to come back to the table and offer some of his own bonus to the troops to get this ****e sandwich over the line. While he is at it, maybe DC can return some of his 48% increase to the troops too.
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The school teachers in Victoria are going for 30% wage rise and aren't backing
down to the governments paltry offer.
Grow a backbone ALAEA and sock it to them.
IF NOT
VOTE NO
down to the governments paltry offer.
Grow a backbone ALAEA and sock it to them.
IF NOT
VOTE NO
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The posts so far answer my question NO GO GD is that answer
Sunfish, great post but we want more !!!!
Do we challenge the mighty QF with JH's workplace laws still in place and go to war or do we plead for more like Oliver did ? Please Sir can I have some more ?
Talk the talk but can we walk the walk ?????
Sunfish, great post but we want more !!!!
Do we challenge the mighty QF with JH's workplace laws still in place and go to war or do we plead for more like Oliver did ? Please Sir can I have some more ?
Talk the talk but can we walk the walk ?????