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Dick
As another who has vigorously supported increasing Australian airspace safety and airspace architecture with the cross industry funded ADS-B project, I too am disappointed with last Monday's news, which seems to have finally reached the hinterlands of aviation
Why on earth would you be sworn to secrecy at the end of the queue, though?
I'm uncertain 'rational heads have prevailed'. Bureaucratic blockages do not rate as rational heads in my opinion. I thought you were against bureaucracies. Particularly when those same bureaucrats are paying millions to subsidise gas fitment to autos, proposed billions to bale out the car industry, and big money anywhere but aviation.
Looks like we now join the USA in going down the ADS-B track incrementally and on an 'owner pays' basis. Transponders in E all over again. Owners should be ecstatic at being saved from subsidised ADS-B and TSO 146 GPS fitment - shouldn't they
Can you just confirm or refute for the record - so we all have it correct - that:
1. You have pushed for a 5 year overlap of radars and ADS-B, knowing that stuffed the cross industry funding, and,
2. You have opposed the ATLAS mandate throughout (lower level ADS-B).
I believe we have snatched defeat from certain victory.
As another who has vigorously supported increasing Australian airspace safety and airspace architecture with the cross industry funded ADS-B project, I too am disappointed with last Monday's news, which seems to have finally reached the hinterlands of aviation
Why on earth would you be sworn to secrecy at the end of the queue, though?I'm uncertain 'rational heads have prevailed'. Bureaucratic blockages do not rate as rational heads in my opinion. I thought you were against bureaucracies. Particularly when those same bureaucrats are paying millions to subsidise gas fitment to autos, proposed billions to bale out the car industry, and big money anywhere but aviation.
Looks like we now join the USA in going down the ADS-B track incrementally and on an 'owner pays' basis. Transponders in E all over again. Owners should be ecstatic at being saved from subsidised ADS-B and TSO 146 GPS fitment - shouldn't they
Can you just confirm or refute for the record - so we all have it correct - that:
1. You have pushed for a 5 year overlap of radars and ADS-B, knowing that stuffed the cross industry funding, and,
2. You have opposed the ATLAS mandate throughout (lower level ADS-B).
I believe we have snatched defeat from certain victory.
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Ferris,
You can count me in, could you please bring a spare foil hat, i'll bring a case of blueberry pop tarts and seasons 1 through 6 of Zena, princess warrior, in HD of course, KAPLAW !!!!! ( klingon for victory).
You can count me in, could you please bring a spare foil hat, i'll bring a case of blueberry pop tarts and seasons 1 through 6 of Zena, princess warrior, in HD of course, KAPLAW !!!!! ( klingon for victory)
.
Last edited by Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower; 13th Nov 2008 at 23:18. Reason: To correct Klingon spelling, unfortunately it's not my primary dialect.
I'm in one of those moods
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Sworn to secrecy .. oh please 
.
So from the sounds of it, I guess you are cock-a-hoot that industry will pay 300million to replace existing Enroute radars and Navaids i.e. that 300million will provide ... hmmm, nothing more to industry than .....errm .... what exists now!! ... well thank the (insert deity of choice)
… cannot wait to see the detail of WHY this has supposedly occurred!!
.
In the meantime, chalk it up on your list of 'wins for the industry' ..
.. oh please .
So from the sounds of it, I guess you are cock-a-hoot that industry will pay 300million to replace existing Enroute radars and Navaids i.e. that 300million will provide ... hmmm, nothing more to industry than .....errm .... what exists now!! ... well thank the (insert deity of choice)
I’m glad that rational heads have prevailed.
.
In the meantime, chalk it up on your list of 'wins for the industry' ..
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Dick, methinks you need to explain that 'rational heads' comment, by itself it reeks of BS 
Why would it be rational to support old, expensive technology in lieu of a move to next generation technology that delivers traffic information to all airspace users within a few years at no or very little cost to the individual aircraft owner?
If I want traffic info in my aeroplane now, I need to spend 10 grand on a TAS600 or similar. Great!
Why would it be rational to support old, expensive technology in lieu of a move to next generation technology that delivers traffic information to all airspace users within a few years at no or very little cost to the individual aircraft owner?
If I want traffic info in my aeroplane now, I need to spend 10 grand on a TAS600 or similar. Great!
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Planky
Rational heads?
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
Edit to add - getting slow in my old age.
"secret briefing"!
Who was the self-announced guest speaker at tbe AEA conference in Qld?
Is it not fact that the announcement about the JCP was made public there by Greg Dunstone of Airservices.
Let the secrecy end. The whole avionics industry knows. Shhhhhhh
Rational heads?
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
Edit to add - getting slow in my old age.
"secret briefing"!
Who was the self-announced guest speaker at tbe AEA conference in Qld?
Is it not fact that the announcement about the JCP was made public there by Greg Dunstone of Airservices.
Let the secrecy end. The whole avionics industry knows. Shhhhhhh
Last edited by james michael; 14th Nov 2008 at 00:57. Reason: Funny afterthought
ADSB Announcement...
I have just read, an announcement released today by AsA and mentioning Greg Russell's statement that ADSB is to be introduced into WA on a trial basis for the mining industry flights.
And now, my 'oletimers' has set in and I can't find it for posting here.
It concluded with the explanation that the communications network had to be converted from analogue to digital - and apparently nobody recognised the scope of work required to do this - hence the delay.
I thought I saw it on the RAA site - but ........
I'll go quietly....
And now, my 'oletimers' has set in and I can't find it for posting here.
It concluded with the explanation that the communications network had to be converted from analogue to digital - and apparently nobody recognised the scope of work required to do this - hence the delay.
I thought I saw it on the RAA site - but ........
I'll go quietly....
If I want traffic info in my aeroplane now, I need to spend 10 grand on a TAS600 or similar
I have a Zaon XRX PCAS in the Bo (after a recent close encounter), but the jury is still out on whether it was worth the A$2k.
Dr
AHA!! 'Ere 'Tis.....
ADSB In WA? (New or Old News?)
"Australian air navigation service provider Airservices Australia is in discussions with operators that provide fly-in, fly-out charter services for mine companies in Western Australia (WA) on an automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) trial to be run in the state next year.
The trial would contribute to the service provider's case for an extension of its existing ADS-B programme. Airservices Australia is already implementing ADS-B above flight level 300 in a programme that involves the installation of ADS-B ground stations throughout the country to provide radar-like surveillance. The service provider had proposed extending ADS-B coverage below FL300 in a move that would require the country's general aviation fleet to be equipped with ADS-B avionics. However, that programme stalled in 2006 when it became clear that some parts of the industry and government required more information, particularly relating to cost issues. Last year saw the release of a consultation paper that included a proposal for a cross-industry subsidy scheme for the acquisition and installation of ADS-B avionics for GA operators.
Airservices chief executive officer Greg Russell says "a lot of work" has been done on the "highly complex issue" and a recommendation on a subsidy scheme will be presented to the minister of transport in the next few weeks.
The WA trial would provide Airservices with "a better understanding of what is required" with the lower airspace programme, as well as providing improved surveillance for WA's booming mining charter market. ADS-B ground stations are currently deployed at 14 sites in Australia, with eight of these in WA and more due to come on line in the state before the end of the year.
Meanwhile, nationwide ADS-B coverage above FL300 will be available in 2009 - four years later than originally planned. Russell conceded at the Australian Airports Association national convention earlier this week that the programme, which required rebuilding the country's communication network from analogue to digital, was "much more complex than we first understood". Despite the delay, Australia will still be the first country in the world to roll out nationwide ADS-B coverage, says Russell. "
Like I said above, whether this is 'new' or 'old', I dunno.
But it DOES sound GOOD!
"Australian air navigation service provider Airservices Australia is in discussions with operators that provide fly-in, fly-out charter services for mine companies in Western Australia (WA) on an automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) trial to be run in the state next year.
The trial would contribute to the service provider's case for an extension of its existing ADS-B programme. Airservices Australia is already implementing ADS-B above flight level 300 in a programme that involves the installation of ADS-B ground stations throughout the country to provide radar-like surveillance. The service provider had proposed extending ADS-B coverage below FL300 in a move that would require the country's general aviation fleet to be equipped with ADS-B avionics. However, that programme stalled in 2006 when it became clear that some parts of the industry and government required more information, particularly relating to cost issues. Last year saw the release of a consultation paper that included a proposal for a cross-industry subsidy scheme for the acquisition and installation of ADS-B avionics for GA operators.
Airservices chief executive officer Greg Russell says "a lot of work" has been done on the "highly complex issue" and a recommendation on a subsidy scheme will be presented to the minister of transport in the next few weeks.
The WA trial would provide Airservices with "a better understanding of what is required" with the lower airspace programme, as well as providing improved surveillance for WA's booming mining charter market. ADS-B ground stations are currently deployed at 14 sites in Australia, with eight of these in WA and more due to come on line in the state before the end of the year.
Meanwhile, nationwide ADS-B coverage above FL300 will be available in 2009 - four years later than originally planned. Russell conceded at the Australian Airports Association national convention earlier this week that the programme, which required rebuilding the country's communication network from analogue to digital, was "much more complex than we first understood". Despite the delay, Australia will still be the first country in the world to roll out nationwide ADS-B coverage, says Russell. "
Like I said above, whether this is 'new' or 'old', I dunno.
But it DOES sound GOOD!
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FACT.
No proposal was ever put to The Qantas Board of Directors and Qantas never agreed to a cross industry subsidy.
FACT.
No proposal was ever put to The Virgin Board of Directors and Virgin never agreed to a cross industry subsidy.
No proposal was ever put to The Qantas Board of Directors and Qantas never agreed to a cross industry subsidy.
FACT.
No proposal was ever put to The Virgin Board of Directors and Virgin never agreed to a cross industry subsidy.
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Bob Murphie, stop spreading BS. 
Get your facts straight, your persistent spreading of half truths and confusion is
Your "FACTS" are non-sensical, airlines have nothing to do with cross industry funding.
From here: http://www.astra.aero/downloads/ABIT...S_Overview.pdf
The savings and hence subsidy would come out of AsA budgets. I.e. money already set aside to maintain radar systems would instead be spent on ADS-B avionics in GA aircraft.
Get your facts straight, your persistent spreading of half truths and confusion is Your "FACTS" are non-sensical, airlines have nothing to do with cross industry funding.
From here: http://www.astra.aero/downloads/ABIT...S_Overview.pdf
This in turn will ensure that funding is available (in the form of savings from the avoided
cost of ground infrastructure replacement) to fund the required airborne infrastructure.
cost of ground infrastructure replacement) to fund the required airborne infrastructure.
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james michael:
Because they were going to administer the subsidy remember.
I know who is spreading half truths and confusion and it's not me.
I have said all along it's a good chance it's a fizzer. YOU preferred to listen to other BS because you didn't want to venture outside your own little self interest cube and listen to the alternate view. Now if it is mandated and you have to pay for the installation, you know who to blame.....
I predict there will be no mandate for low level VFR ADSB, common sense will prevail.
No cross industry funding = no mandate for ADS-B below FLs. The two are inexorably linked.
Why does anyone need to submit a proposal to Airservices and exactly who should submit same?
I know who is spreading half truths and confusion and it's not me.
I have said all along it's a good chance it's a fizzer. YOU preferred to listen to other BS because you didn't want to venture outside your own little self interest cube and listen to the alternate view. Now if it is mandated and you have to pay for the installation, you know who to blame.....
I predict there will be no mandate for low level VFR ADSB, common sense will prevail.
Last edited by Bob Murphie; 14th Nov 2008 at 06:27.
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Do you think so??
What makes you blokes think ASA would listen to you anyway? The airlines spend the big money in aviation (inside the j curve anyway) and it appears to me that ASA and CASA are both subsidiaries of Qantas.
In a few years, when they figure out how to do it and get the technology working they will mandate ADSB (if they can) so the airlines can get "nannied" in the few outback places they go to, and ASA can make more money by doing it. The GA pilots and operators will gain very little from it, and will have to carry it and maintain it. Just like the transponders. ASA will also win by having cheaper surveilance gear. The major beneficiaries should pay for it.
There is equipment aqvailable, or coming which will bbe much much more valuable to GA. Some of it may cpmpete with ADSB, and this , of course cannot be permitted. Shock horror.
Ten thousand little aeroplanes are not considered important, but a few hundred airliners are. They will get what they want.
In a few years, when they figure out how to do it and get the technology working they will mandate ADSB (if they can) so the airlines can get "nannied" in the few outback places they go to, and ASA can make more money by doing it. The GA pilots and operators will gain very little from it, and will have to carry it and maintain it. Just like the transponders. ASA will also win by having cheaper surveilance gear. The major beneficiaries should pay for it.
There is equipment aqvailable, or coming which will bbe much much more valuable to GA. Some of it may cpmpete with ADSB, and this , of course cannot be permitted. Shock horror.
Ten thousand little aeroplanes are not considered important, but a few hundred airliners are. They will get what they want.
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Plaz
Bushy
Thanks to the smear campaign of those in a certain camp there was much b..s spread about ADS-B in Oz and the JCP. I think Plaz is hinting you might have believed some of it at the time.
You've summed up the result - ADS-B will ultimately be mandated WITHOUT any funding for GA. At our expense in other words. Was always the second chance.
Had the naysayers seen the logical business end of the deal, a $10K subsidy or $15K is better than none. Of course some can afford the $ so why should they worry about the common man.
One of my researchers is preparing a compendium of wisdom on ADS-B from Dick's previous posts on the matter. When the post mortem is conducted, at least his position will be clear when I post that compendium given he has been very quiet today (possibly at more secret briefings).
Bushy
Thanks to the smear campaign of those in a certain camp there was much b..s spread about ADS-B in Oz and the JCP. I think Plaz is hinting you might have believed some of it at the time.
You've summed up the result - ADS-B will ultimately be mandated WITHOUT any funding for GA. At our expense in other words. Was always the second chance.
Had the naysayers seen the logical business end of the deal, a $10K subsidy or $15K is better than none. Of course some can afford the $ so why should they worry about the common man.
One of my researchers is preparing a compendium of wisdom on ADS-B from Dick's previous posts on the matter. When the post mortem is conducted, at least his position will be clear when I post that compendium given he has been very quiet today (possibly at more secret briefings
).
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Well Dick, FB and Bob etc.....
I HOPE THEY MANDATE IT VERY SOON FOR ALL AIRCRAFT
Why? because I have already the bulk of the equipment cost covered already and I want to see you lot fork out full price for it! Yes I am being spiteful but hey, from where I sit right now I can afford to be. I hope it bites the lot of you on the arse.
The only thing you have on your side is ASA and CASA are so slow to do anything some of you will have retired from flying by then!
J
I HOPE THEY MANDATE IT VERY SOON FOR ALL AIRCRAFT
Why? because I have already the bulk of the equipment cost covered already and I want to see you lot fork out full price for it! Yes I am being spiteful but hey, from where I sit right now I can afford to be. I hope it bites the lot of you on the arse.
The only thing you have on your side is ASA and CASA are so slow to do anything some of you will have retired from flying by then!
J
Folks,
Oh !! Shock!! Oh!! Horror!! ---- Now I don't get the subsidy to solve the problem I don't have !!! ---- And nor does anybody else have.
Looks like I will be able to stick with my existing Mode S transponders for a while yet.
Seriously, a few of you ADS- Bophiles, or should that be ADS-B Tragics, in light of what was always going to be the most likely outcome, should now go back and read some of the saner and more logical of the JCP submissions (ASAC for one)----- or, perhaps, look at what FAA and Eurocontrol are actually planning with ADS-B ---- to use it as another tool in providing separation services ----- and not ( as has been almost the total concentration on these and related threads) as an aircraft to aircraft collision avoidance device.
I just love the argument going on, a few posting back, about where the money was going to come from, and ---- what if?? just possibly ??? all the cost savings from "radar" were very inflated (the NZ costs to upgrade exactly the same equipment is public information and in JCP submissions) and don't forget ----
Most of the ASA proposed cost saving came from pulling out ground based navaids (not "radar"), and that didn't and doesn't need ADS-B, just GPS with TSO C-145/146 chips.
Jabberjabber, have a look at the published figures for the number of Qantas, Jetstar, and Virgin aircraft that cannot be economically upgraded to even ADS-B OUT.
Jabber, old chap, perhaps the airlines did call the shots, because the great bulk of the present Australian airline fleet cannot be "economically" upgraded, (anything is possible, given the application of unlimited cubic dollars - a rather scarce commodity right now) so do you really think they (senior executive management --- not the low level office types who go to consultation meetings) were going to accept a "mandate" that rendered a substantial proportion of their fleet un-usable in Australian airspace.
Fantasyland mugged by reality probably just about describes the ADS-B outcome.
Tootle pip!!
PS:
Bob Murphie was quite correct, in the Virgin case, I challenge anybody to produce evidence that the Virgin board signed off on fitting ADS-B OUT to all their own aircraft, let alone pony up any subsidy. Did the mini-jets come already fitted ??
Ditto: QANTAS mainline.
By whatever accounting entries might have been used, the ASA major customers were going to pay.
Oh !! Shock!! Oh!! Horror!! ---- Now I don't get the subsidy to solve the problem I don't have !!! ---- And nor does anybody else have.
Looks like I will be able to stick with my existing Mode S transponders for a while yet.
Seriously, a few of you ADS- Bophiles, or should that be ADS-B Tragics, in light of what was always going to be the most likely outcome, should now go back and read some of the saner and more logical of the JCP submissions (ASAC for one)----- or, perhaps, look at what FAA and Eurocontrol are actually planning with ADS-B ---- to use it as another tool in providing separation services ----- and not ( as has been almost the total concentration on these and related threads) as an aircraft to aircraft collision avoidance device.
I just love the argument going on, a few posting back, about where the money was going to come from, and ---- what if?? just possibly ??? all the cost savings from "radar" were very inflated (the NZ costs to upgrade exactly the same equipment is public information and in JCP submissions) and don't forget ----
Most of the ASA proposed cost saving came from pulling out ground based navaids (not "radar"), and that didn't and doesn't need ADS-B, just GPS with TSO C-145/146 chips.
Jabberjabber, have a look at the published figures for the number of Qantas, Jetstar, and Virgin aircraft that cannot be economically upgraded to even ADS-B OUT.
Jabber, old chap, perhaps the airlines did call the shots, because the great bulk of the present Australian airline fleet cannot be "economically" upgraded, (anything is possible, given the application of unlimited cubic dollars - a rather scarce commodity right now) so do you really think they (senior executive management --- not the low level office types who go to consultation meetings) were going to accept a "mandate" that rendered a substantial proportion of their fleet un-usable in Australian airspace.
Fantasyland mugged by reality probably just about describes the ADS-B outcome.
Tootle pip!!
PS:
Bob Murphie was quite correct, in the Virgin case, I challenge anybody to produce evidence that the Virgin board signed off on fitting ADS-B OUT to all their own aircraft, let alone pony up any subsidy. Did the mini-jets come already fitted ??
Ditto: QANTAS mainline.
By whatever accounting entries might have been used, the ASA major customers were going to pay.
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Leaddy
That's great rhetoric - then one grabs the magnifying glass and
and this is so logical it is absolutely unarguable - why didn't we think of it
So, Leaddy, the mugs read this and say "oh Leaddy guru, you make it all so clear".
But then someone suggests - hey, wasn't there two programs - the UAP (Upper Airspace Project) and the JCP (Lower airspace)?
So Leaddy you may be absolutely correct. Let's now await whether a mandate occurs for above 29,000'. Last time I looked, apart from climb and descent, that's where Qantas and Virgin fly. Should that occur, your post becomes a nonsense.
QF delivered a letterheaded paper at Dec 2007 ABIT which stated inter alia:
QANTAS believes that ADS-B (1090 ES) will be central to any future Australian ATM surveillance strategy and will be key to delivering future airborne situational awareness and separation applications (ASAS). It is consistent with the ASTRA vision which is supported by all major stakeholders.
Time will tell Leaddy - you may be right, Qantas may be wrong
That's great rhetoric - then one grabs the magnifying glass and
have a look at the published figures for the number of Qantas, Jetstar, and Virgin aircraft that cannot be economically upgraded to even ADS-B OUT
I challenge anybody to produce evidence that the Virgin board signed off on fitting ADS-B OUT to all their own aircraft
do you really think they (senior executive management --- not the low level office types who go to consultation meetings) were going to accept a "mandate" that rendered a substantial proportion of their fleet un-usable in Australian airspace.
But then someone suggests - hey, wasn't there two programs - the UAP (Upper Airspace Project) and the JCP (Lower airspace)?
So Leaddy you may be absolutely correct. Let's now await whether a mandate occurs for above 29,000'. Last time I looked, apart from climb and descent, that's where Qantas and Virgin fly. Should that occur, your post becomes a nonsense.
QF delivered a letterheaded paper at Dec 2007 ABIT which stated inter alia:
QANTAS believes that ADS-B (1090 ES) will be central to any future Australian ATM surveillance strategy and will be key to delivering future airborne situational awareness and separation applications (ASAS). It is consistent with the ASTRA vision which is supported by all major stakeholders.
Time will tell Leaddy - you may be right, Qantas may be wrong
JM, run all my previous quotes if you like - they will all be consistent.
I am delighted with the decision. I have just left a briefing by Freeflight here in Cairns re updating Aussie aircraft to ADS-B.
There are some exciting products coming and rumoured - including a combination Mode S extended squitter and UAT in transponder from Garmin.
Now that we have time we can benefit from substantially lower costs and more up to date equipment.
I will now work towards the cost savings that can be gained by removing old ground based nav aids - millions will be saved by our industry as shown in the JCP. There is no need to link this with the future fitment of ADSB.
I am delighted with the decision. I have just left a briefing by Freeflight here in Cairns re updating Aussie aircraft to ADS-B.
There are some exciting products coming and rumoured - including a combination Mode S extended squitter and UAT in transponder from Garmin.
Now that we have time we can benefit from substantially lower costs and more up to date equipment.
I will now work towards the cost savings that can be gained by removing old ground based nav aids - millions will be saved by our industry as shown in the JCP. There is no need to link this with the future fitment of ADSB.
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Maybe back in your day they were not economical to upgrade, but last I looked the Q group fleet had a lot of ADSB already and I do believe I read that Q letter somewhere myself.
Somehow I think the NDB & enroute radar costs were well known to ASA in their original proposal, surely you know roughly how much cash is in your wallet!
J
Somehow I think the NDB & enroute radar costs were well known to ASA in their original proposal, surely you know roughly how much cash is in your wallet!
J
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Dick
Ever heard of an oxymoron?
Tell the world Dick - how does UAT provide lower costs?
Perhaps also tell the mugs who believed your "consistent" anti-1090 anti-JCP preachings, Dick - did you qualify for the subsidy or not?
And for those who stood to get ADS-B fitted for FREE, Dick, but now have to pay for it - where are THEIR 'substantially lower costs'.
Priceless
Ever heard of an oxymoron?
a combination Mode S extended squitter and UAT in transponder from Garmin.
Now that we have time we can benefit from substantially lower costs and more up to date equipment.
Now that we have time we can benefit from substantially lower costs and more up to date equipment.
Perhaps also tell the mugs who believed your "consistent" anti-1090 anti-JCP preachings, Dick - did you qualify for the subsidy or not?
And for those who stood to get ADS-B fitted for FREE, Dick, but now have to pay for it - where are THEIR 'substantially lower costs'.
Priceless