Why would anyone apply to fly for Qantas?
Thread Starter
Why would anyone apply to fly for Qantas?
For a number of years, getting a gig in Qantas was considered by many to be the holy grail of Oz flying, however in the current environment I seriously wonder why newbys would bother going through the application process considering the following 2 scenarios:
Scenario 1
Join Virgin Blue,
become FO on B737
spend 3 years in RHS,
command on B737 earning very similar to what a QF B737 Captain gets,
after 18 months of jet command time employable on a world market if you wish, otherwise you got have yourself a pretty good gig already.
Scenario 2
Join Qantas,
become an SO,
according to the Chief Pilot expect to be in the backseat about 7 years, become an FO on B737 or B767, spend about 5 years there,
time to finally earn some real cash, move to B747 or A380 as FO if seniority allows,
spend another 5 years on this type
finally first command on B737 after 17 years in the company.
Only after 18 months in LHS are you finally employable in world market due to having some jet command time. You may not wish to go anywhere but it is nice to have options!
Considering the above scenarios the guy who gets into Virgin is earning slightly less to start with, but after 3 years will be earning what it will take the Qantas new start about 15-17 years to get. Additionally he has a command to his name.
I believe that the GenX factor will play a big part also. They are the pilot applicants of tomorrow, and they want everything (read command, high pay) NOW!!!
In the current climate at Qantas where future career direction is uncertain due to Jetstar being given all the opportunities whilst Qantas is allowed to wither at the vine, why would anyone apply to Qantas unless they have been knocked back everywhere else?
Scenario 1
Join Virgin Blue,
become FO on B737
spend 3 years in RHS,
command on B737 earning very similar to what a QF B737 Captain gets,
after 18 months of jet command time employable on a world market if you wish, otherwise you got have yourself a pretty good gig already.
Scenario 2
Join Qantas,
become an SO,
according to the Chief Pilot expect to be in the backseat about 7 years, become an FO on B737 or B767, spend about 5 years there,
time to finally earn some real cash, move to B747 or A380 as FO if seniority allows,
spend another 5 years on this type
finally first command on B737 after 17 years in the company.
Only after 18 months in LHS are you finally employable in world market due to having some jet command time. You may not wish to go anywhere but it is nice to have options!
Considering the above scenarios the guy who gets into Virgin is earning slightly less to start with, but after 3 years will be earning what it will take the Qantas new start about 15-17 years to get. Additionally he has a command to his name.
I believe that the GenX factor will play a big part also. They are the pilot applicants of tomorrow, and they want everything (read command, high pay) NOW!!!
In the current climate at Qantas where future career direction is uncertain due to Jetstar being given all the opportunities whilst Qantas is allowed to wither at the vine, why would anyone apply to Qantas unless they have been knocked back everywhere else?
I'll bite pig dog,
You join an airline for a few reasons - LIFESTYLE, LIFESTYLE and LIFESTYLE.
Qantas offers you a chance to make some good money -ask any SO's (after the crappy wage of 18 months finishes), a chance to live in Oz and and a chance to be at home a lot.
Join Virgin or Jetstar and sure you'll have a command sooner and more money - but no time to spend it. Burn out after 5-7 years. They work their pilots hard.
If you want to live OS, then a quick command is great, but if you want to sit home in Oz and ENJOY life.... you're on Q
You join an airline for a few reasons - LIFESTYLE, LIFESTYLE and LIFESTYLE.
Qantas offers you a chance to make some good money -ask any SO's (after the crappy wage of 18 months finishes), a chance to live in Oz and and a chance to be at home a lot.
Join Virgin or Jetstar and sure you'll have a command sooner and more money - but no time to spend it. Burn out after 5-7 years. They work their pilots hard.
If you want to live OS, then a quick command is great, but if you want to sit home in Oz and ENJOY life.... you're on Q
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
however in the current environment I seriously wonder why newbys would bother going through the application process
according to the Chief Pilot expect to be in the backseat about 7 years
become an FO on B737 or B767, spend about 5 years there,
time to finally earn some real cash
time to finally earn some real cash
finally first command on B737 after 17 years in the company
but it is nice to have options!
In the current climate at Qantas where future career direction is uncertain
why would anyone apply to Qantas unless they have been knocked back everywhere else?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Established.
Age: 53
Posts: 658
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a lot to be said for many options, O/S included but, being an S/O pulling in 170K and waiting for the upgrade that suits YOU is probably pretty hard to beat for most.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wherever the job takes me...
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Virgin or Jetstar and sure you'll have a command sooner and more money - but no time to spend it. Burn out after 5-7 years. They work their pilots hard.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oz
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
are they very different jobs?
I think they are both great jobs, its very hard to choose between them, which is something that I am having to do at the moment after being succesful in both recruiting processes.
I wish it was as easy to choose as the responses have indicated so far. People apply to QF because it is an excellent company with very good pay and conditions, my impression is that QF attracts long term career pilots who want to see out there career with QF, probably a more conservative type person.
VB is a great way to get your command hours and if you plan to change jobs and go to another airline then its the way to go. Its also a real carrot having a short term command opportunity.
I think lifestyle and stability will be the overiding factor for me.
For people wondering why on earth anyone would apply for QF then I would say they are far more suited to VB or J* and would most likely become frustrated in QF.
Thats my impression as an applicant.
I wish it was as easy to choose as the responses have indicated so far. People apply to QF because it is an excellent company with very good pay and conditions, my impression is that QF attracts long term career pilots who want to see out there career with QF, probably a more conservative type person.
VB is a great way to get your command hours and if you plan to change jobs and go to another airline then its the way to go. Its also a real carrot having a short term command opportunity.
I think lifestyle and stability will be the overiding factor for me.
For people wondering why on earth anyone would apply for QF then I would say they are far more suited to VB or J* and would most likely become frustrated in QF.
Thats my impression as an applicant.
Nunc est bibendum
(Quite frankly, I would be only too happy for some extra hours; could use the $$$.....
You could then just enjoy the boredom or do what the rest of us do and have a life away from the job! Given that Virgin isn't exanding like it was will it still be three years to command? Given their young demographic I suspect that if you're not 'in' within the next 12 months then the command is going to start blowing out well north of 5-7-10 years. Along the way in QF you will probably have earned just as much money and lifestyle should be similar. Further, command in QF currently at approximately 13 1/2 years rather than the aforementioned 17 years.
Other than that I reckon that Master Caution has probably explained it pretty well!
Keg's correct UNLESS all the expansion in QF group all goes to Jetstar. That would make a mess of promotional opportunities and leave some very upset SO.
Virgin's expansion seems to be going pretty good at the moment with all those EJets coming on line. I wouldn't imagine time to command slowing up in the near future.
Virgin's expansion seems to be going pretty good at the moment with all those EJets coming on line. I wouldn't imagine time to command slowing up in the near future.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas covers your endorsement
Don't forget that Qantas still pays for it's pilots initial endorsement. Virgin and Jetstar will charge you 30-35K for this, not to mention you wont get paid while doing it. Qantas recruits get paid from day 1 so I reckon over the first year or two the Qantas guy will still be ahead.
Also just roughly speaking I believe most QF SO's will be earning at least as much as a JQ FO and most QF FO's probably make equal or better than a JQ skipper with Virgin pay slightly better than JQ
Also if all is so good at Virgin can you explain why thier skippers are leaving in droves to OS airlines whilst QF attrition is only 3%?
Also just roughly speaking I believe most QF SO's will be earning at least as much as a JQ FO and most QF FO's probably make equal or better than a JQ skipper with Virgin pay slightly better than JQ
Also if all is so good at Virgin can you explain why thier skippers are leaving in droves to OS airlines whilst QF attrition is only 3%?
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I can't believe you asked the question!
If I was ten years younger with HSC in hand, I would be doing my utmost to make Keg's life a misery...
If I was ten years younger with HSC in hand, I would be doing my utmost to make Keg's life a misery...
Nunc est bibendum
ROFL. Sorry Howard but that position is filled....I already have a wife! 
She's got her HSC but it wasn't a requirement for the job!
(All kidding aside, I'm a very fortunate man to have a wife as wonderful and supportive as mine can be....most times!)
When it comes to the job I can normally find enough trouble on my own without needing any young whipper-snapper to make it more complicated.
She's got her HSC but it wasn't a requirement for the job! (All kidding aside, I'm a very fortunate man to have a wife as wonderful and supportive as mine can be....most times!)
When it comes to the job I can normally find enough trouble on my own without needing any young whipper-snapper to make it more complicated.
Nunc est bibendum
Ever seen the time of a lot of my posts? She goes to sleep early because she's up early with the little'un. I stay up late for the post midnight feed. Not much to watch on TV at that time of night......what better things to do than wind people up on PPRUNE.
Of course that doesn't explain posting at times like now. She's out shopping and I'm trying to avoid doing some AAFC stuff.
Of course that doesn't explain posting at times like now. She's out shopping and I'm trying to avoid doing some AAFC stuff.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In 2007, 29 QF mainline pilots retired, 27 resigned, and 9 took medical.
That's 27 resigned - unheard of in the history of the airline. It was once the career destination of choice. Now people are leaving. Read into it what you will.
That's 27 resigned - unheard of in the history of the airline. It was once the career destination of choice. Now people are leaving. Read into it what you will.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Generation what?
I think in some of the above posts people have become confused with what generation is what.
Generation X are the study bugs, they were part of the forced uni students. Remember the time when Uni was the only option.
Generation Y is the generation of everything now and not delay.
A recent Australian survey by APM Training Institute has revealed that Generation Y graduates expect to work less and get paid more than the employers that are attempting to recruit them. The survey found the following (my comments in blue):
While 58% of employers expect graduates to work up to 50 hours per week, only 26% of school leavers, 44% of college students and 45% of university students expect to work these hours. Employers see overtime as part of the job with only 8% paying extra wages. But 76% of school students, 65% of college and 78% of university students expect additional pay.
30% said graduates are unprepared to 'pay their dues' and expect to walk into a good job.
Promotion within one year is expected by 39% of college students and 42% of university students. Only 32% of employers commit to this. I am not convinced that this is any different from generations before, but we know for sure that Gen Y are preapred to walk with their feet if they don't get it.
The majority of students expect to stay in their first job for two to three years (50% of college students and 61% of university students.) However, 77% of employers expect graduates to last for between one to two years. Is it possible that we are contributing to the high attrition rates at graduate level. As this survey suggests it is the emplyers who expect Gen Y to move on quickly, more so than the gen Y'ers themselves.
For the full APM Training Institue article (a great piece) click the link below:
http://www.apm.edu.au/newsletter/nov04/MainStory.htm
Posted by Peter Sheahan, 29/5/2005
Imagine the expectatios that will develop at the sausag factories now with such a shortage of pilot's and a generational culture like this.
Generation X are the study bugs, they were part of the forced uni students. Remember the time when Uni was the only option.
Generation Y is the generation of everything now and not delay.
A recent Australian survey by APM Training Institute has revealed that Generation Y graduates expect to work less and get paid more than the employers that are attempting to recruit them. The survey found the following (my comments in blue):
While 58% of employers expect graduates to work up to 50 hours per week, only 26% of school leavers, 44% of college students and 45% of university students expect to work these hours. Employers see overtime as part of the job with only 8% paying extra wages. But 76% of school students, 65% of college and 78% of university students expect additional pay.
30% said graduates are unprepared to 'pay their dues' and expect to walk into a good job.
Promotion within one year is expected by 39% of college students and 42% of university students. Only 32% of employers commit to this. I am not convinced that this is any different from generations before, but we know for sure that Gen Y are preapred to walk with their feet if they don't get it.
The majority of students expect to stay in their first job for two to three years (50% of college students and 61% of university students.) However, 77% of employers expect graduates to last for between one to two years. Is it possible that we are contributing to the high attrition rates at graduate level. As this survey suggests it is the emplyers who expect Gen Y to move on quickly, more so than the gen Y'ers themselves.
For the full APM Training Institue article (a great piece) click the link below:
http://www.apm.edu.au/newsletter/nov04/MainStory.htm
Posted by Peter Sheahan, 29/5/2005
Imagine the expectatios that will develop at the sausag factories now with such a shortage of pilot's and a generational culture like this.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AS IF!
"Hey honey it's Mr Qantas on the phone. He said he wants to offer you a job".
"Tell him I'm not interested 'cause I'm expecting a call from Mr Virgin any day now."
Like we don't just apply to everything and take whoever calls first.
"Tell him I'm not interested 'cause I'm expecting a call from Mr Virgin any day now."
Like we don't just apply to everything and take whoever calls first.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New Zealand
Age: 64
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Loss of Virginity
Note that Virginity is not always permanent.
Whereas Queensland And Northern Territory Aerial Services Limited, whatever stupid insane decisions it might make in the future, will always be bailed out by the govmint.
Whereas Queensland And Northern Territory Aerial Services Limited, whatever stupid insane decisions it might make in the future, will always be bailed out by the govmint.
Its all very fluid, isn't it - and interesting to sit on the sideline and observe.
I have no idea whether more pilots are resigning from QF now than in the past, but I have observed the airline flying business across two countries (Oz and NZ) now for almost 40 years. I know of many pilots who have walked away from airline flying over that time, for a variety of reasons, and many more who were forced out of it by the unmentionable event.
The reality is that the world has changed in the last 40 years and the airline business has changed dramatically with it. It seems to me that starting out in aviation has always been difficult, except for a couple of very narrow windows of opportunity. I remember young pilots working for their keep only - back in the 70's.
Salaries in all professions are determined by supply and demand. To suggest that you deserve a high salary because you have a particular skill and are willing to risk your life flying the punters about (as suggested by one in here) is clearly silly.
Take flea training for example. A highly skilled profession if ever there was one. It requires 4 years of university learning flea behaviour, psychology, husbandry etc and then a further 4 to 5 years of post graduate training on the job under the supervision of a master flea trainer. It is also high risk because they bite and carry nasty diseases that can kill you.
Given the above, you would think that flea trainers would command very high levels of renumeration, wouldn't you?
There are a couple of senarios.
1) There is very little demand for flea trainers, therefore you will struggle to get paid a high salary, despite your high level of training, skill and risk.
2) There is great demand for flea trainers and flea training is well known to be a very well paid profession and many, many people have completed the uni courses and post grad programs, so most flea trainers can find well paid jobs.
3) Flea circuses find themselves in a rapidly changing, highly competitive, largely deregulated world market place and those in the business are looking at all sorts of business models. Low cost flea circuses are very much the current norm and those in the business are looking to obtain and retain flea trainers in the most cost effective manner possible, while retaining or growing their market share.
etc etc etc - you get my drift!
The reality is that those with a passion for flea training will try to find the best employment options for their particular circumstances.
One thing is for sure - the days of the God-like flea trainer being paid very well for a couple of performances a week to a well healed audience, are clearly part of a different era!
I have recently heard of some flea circuses that have had to cancel performances because they do not have sufficientl experienced flea trainers. Some have started their own training programs.
As for Gen Y - I have raised a couple myself. They are a product of the time in which they live and the environment in which they were raised. Mine had lived in 5 different countries and flown around the world once before they were 15. I on the other hand had my first airliner ride at 13 and my second at 15 - and left Oz for the first time at 31. I was the first in my family to be university educated and after leaving uni worked pretty much 7 days a week, 48/50 weeks a year for the next 10 years. I still work 70/80 hours a week.
Gen Y clearly have a different value set from Gen X or us Baby Boomers, but trust me, the world is in safe hands.
Dr
Rant over!
I have no idea whether more pilots are resigning from QF now than in the past, but I have observed the airline flying business across two countries (Oz and NZ) now for almost 40 years. I know of many pilots who have walked away from airline flying over that time, for a variety of reasons, and many more who were forced out of it by the unmentionable event.
The reality is that the world has changed in the last 40 years and the airline business has changed dramatically with it. It seems to me that starting out in aviation has always been difficult, except for a couple of very narrow windows of opportunity. I remember young pilots working for their keep only - back in the 70's.
Salaries in all professions are determined by supply and demand. To suggest that you deserve a high salary because you have a particular skill and are willing to risk your life flying the punters about (as suggested by one in here) is clearly silly.
Take flea training for example. A highly skilled profession if ever there was one. It requires 4 years of university learning flea behaviour, psychology, husbandry etc and then a further 4 to 5 years of post graduate training on the job under the supervision of a master flea trainer. It is also high risk because they bite and carry nasty diseases that can kill you.
Given the above, you would think that flea trainers would command very high levels of renumeration, wouldn't you?
There are a couple of senarios.
1) There is very little demand for flea trainers, therefore you will struggle to get paid a high salary, despite your high level of training, skill and risk.
2) There is great demand for flea trainers and flea training is well known to be a very well paid profession and many, many people have completed the uni courses and post grad programs, so most flea trainers can find well paid jobs.
3) Flea circuses find themselves in a rapidly changing, highly competitive, largely deregulated world market place and those in the business are looking at all sorts of business models. Low cost flea circuses are very much the current norm and those in the business are looking to obtain and retain flea trainers in the most cost effective manner possible, while retaining or growing their market share.
etc etc etc - you get my drift!
The reality is that those with a passion for flea training will try to find the best employment options for their particular circumstances.
One thing is for sure - the days of the God-like flea trainer being paid very well for a couple of performances a week to a well healed audience, are clearly part of a different era!
I have recently heard of some flea circuses that have had to cancel performances because they do not have sufficientl experienced flea trainers. Some have started their own training programs.
As for Gen Y - I have raised a couple myself. They are a product of the time in which they live and the environment in which they were raised. Mine had lived in 5 different countries and flown around the world once before they were 15. I on the other hand had my first airliner ride at 13 and my second at 15 - and left Oz for the first time at 31. I was the first in my family to be university educated and after leaving uni worked pretty much 7 days a week, 48/50 weeks a year for the next 10 years. I still work 70/80 hours a week.
Gen Y clearly have a different value set from Gen X or us Baby Boomers, but trust me, the world is in safe hands.
Dr
Rant over!
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New Zealand
Age: 64
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Face the fuggin facts, Gen Y!
You youngsters think that the current pilot shortage makes you all so very important and that you have the lives of hundreds of "souls" in your hands. Nonsense: You are, to put it frankly, there to supervise the operation of various computers. In about ten years time, your salary will reflect the job that you actually perform. So take the money while the going is good, but don't kid yourselves about the future.