$48 million allocated to terrorism prevention – worthwhile?

[Islander Jock]

Flying Binghi

If the N.Z. incident had happened in Oz, how would the pilot having an ASIC and the airport being fenced, made any diference what-so-ever ?

I didn't say it would have made a difference. I said that as a result of the events, nothing (including ASICs) would change.

[Flying Binghi]

Apoligies Islander Jock.

Yet again, I miss-read a post.

What I should of wrote... I dont think we should give up on getting rid of the ASIC and security fencing. It seems of late, aviation in Oz is always fighting a rear-gard action. - meekly accepting unneeded restrictions.

When I miss-read your post, I was just staying on message.

[roamingwolf]

the problem has always been that if you walk around it is only a matter of time before you see a fruitloop.
in the states it is measured in seconds but luckily in oz it can be days or weeks.

we should be looking at ways to stop some little evil $#!@ trying to do us some grief.whether we like it or not there are some really wierd people out there that like nothing more than hurting others.

the first thing is not a fence but a x-ray to stop anything dangerous in the cabin.to be honest it will probably only stop the amaters but it's better than nothing.
just ask the pilots who had hulk hogan in drag trying to perforate them.

[Flying Binghi]

To be consistant with this fencing and ASIC idea, I guess we will need to fence all bus stops, railway stations, ferry terminals... you name it... then require all citizins to wear their Oz card to gain access.

As has been demonstrated via the footy bombers, the terrorists themselves are not aviation focused as such. They wanted the maximun impact and apparently canvased many options with the hope to get thousands of casualitys. I find it hard to see how blowing up some 10 to 30 seat pax aircraft would even come into consideration.

If 10 to 30 victims was all that was required, then I am sure a public transport Bus would have been the target, with the added benifit that all Oz citys would be disrupted via bus checks and people fearing to travel.
This has already been proven to work.

Probably the bigest problem we now have with this fencing and ASIC thing, is it has now become a money makeing industry in itself, and the people who dreamed up the idea of fenceing bush airstrips probably dont want to admit it was a bad idea.

[Flying Binghi]

And lets not foreget, this fenceing idea came via the same government that sent our troops to Iraq looking for WMD...


All in all a couple of well thought out ideas.

[Flyingblind]

Anybody remember that old '70's movie where the baddies wanted to fly the Goodyear Blimp over the superdome and release a nail bomb or some other such nasty piece of kit. Seem to remember thinking that that seemed like such a cunning idea when i was a kid.

I hope the currant Holden Airship owners have that beast locked away safely at night.

Whats the diff between airship and blimp? honest question, i seem to remmember all sorts of other exoctic names for them....deridgeable,aerodyne and aerostat.

Any body care to explain?


PS

I think it was Clint Eastwood who inspected the baddies ASIC's and found them counterfit, needless to say said baddies then 'made his day'.

[Flying Binghi]

over the superdome and release a nail bomb or some other such nasty piece of kit

I think it was Clint Eastwood who inspected the baddies ASIC's and found them counterfit, needless to say said baddies then 'made his day'

Havnt seen all of eastwoods movies so Ill take your word on it Flying blind

If osamas mates mindset was only aviation centred, and only committed their acts via aviation, then I guess they would be easy to catch. Unforetunatly as the footy bombers have shown, they are not aviation centred, and do not need aircraft to get their message accross.
(and the bus bombers, and the train bombers, and the subway gas attackers, and the anthrax mailers...)

My guess is a large 4by4 driven at speed thru a shoping mall would probably get the same death rate as a nail bomb.

One thing that concerns me about ASICs, is it makes the family of the ASIC holder targets (ASIC and security fenceing are part and parcel)
If the family of the ASIC wearing airport refueler were held hostage by some knife wielding thugs - what would the refueler be willing to do?

[Philthy]

Whats the diff between airship and blimp? honest question, i seem to remmember all sorts of other exoctic names for them....deridgeable,aerodyne and aerostat.

airship = generic name for any dirigible lighter than air craft

dirigible = steerable, i.e. not a drifting craft like a free balloon

blimp = colloquial name for a non-rigid airship

aerostat = any lighter than air craft deriving its lift from buoyancy in the air, e.g. a balloon or airship

aerodyne = a heavier than air craft deriving lift from forward motion, e.g. an aeroplane

[Angle of Attack]

All a waste of money! These days there is far less terorrist attacks in western countries than there was 20, 30 , 40 years ago. Its all a perception we are all afraid of it when in fact almost nothing is happening! If you want to live in fear go and live in London 30 years ago during the peak of the IRA terrorist bombings. sorry that doesnt count they werent muslim lol! This world is as safe as ever in fact safer than ever before! Its just perception and unfortunately most of the public has taken it hook line and sinker, meanwhile Ill be happy and have no fear ever! Statistically it is the safest time ever!

[Zhaadum]

Nope a complete waste of time and money. I know for a fact after a conversation in person with an AFP officer there are 11000 expired ASICS out there and not handed in. Also AFP does not check anything when issuing ASIC's. They don't have the manpower to do this.

It is all a complete crock of ****, and I told the AFP officer this, he had no reply.

George W Bush is the worlds greatest terroist by far. He has killed more Americans then Al Quaeda ever has by sending them to Iraq to die after the war was "won". Why should we care if everyone else in the world wants to bomb the yanks? They deserve it (the government, not the citizens).

[Chimbu chuckles]

I read somewhere in the last year or so that an average of 300 people die from 'terrorist' activities outside of war zones annually.

When you take into account spikes like 911 then most years it would be FAR less than 300.

Now 300 deaths from 'terrorists' is about 1/2 the number of Australian that slip over in the shower and die as a result annually.

The number of people who die annually from mistakes caused by overtired doctors and nurses in hospitals = something like 10000 in Australia alone...world wide ?????

We going to put our Doctors and Nurses on a terrorist watch list?

There are lots of things in the world worth being concerned about...being killed by terrorists is NOT one of them.

I can only agree with the poster above who referenced the terrorist activities in Europe and the ME 30+ years ago...Baider Meinhoff/Red Brigade/IRA etc etc etc...the 60s/70s and 80s were truly a bad time but guess what...I don't remember ANY of the BS rhetoric we get these days issuing forth from our elected representatives in those days. I was a teenager in the 70s and my father was a QF pilot flying to the ME and Europe.

After 911 our pollies told us NOT to live in fear and to go about our lives normally else the 'terrorists' win...and since then have done everything in their power to STOP us going about our lives normally.

I am treated as suspect despite 27 years in this industry!

And yet the US and Europe who HAVE been and continue to be targetted don't have ASICs...why is that Dick?

Why is it ONLY Australia treats me this way?

Why can't I go on about my business without undue interference...I cannot land at Toowoomba or Grafton or Coffs or Mackay to visit friends or pick up some fuel if I don't display a little piece of plastic that essentially means nothing yet I can fly a widebody into any Australian Capital City airport with only my foreign company issued ID card...and walk around airside with a yellow vest covering even that!!

And watch the ****fight that would erupt around me if I dared try and do a preflight without my yellow vest covering my company issued/no deep background check carried out, ID card.

What the **** is wrong with this picture?

Dick you are constantly looking for ways to put your stamp on Australian aviation...to make a difference...to make it better...I am constantly amazed you have not cottoned onto this yet...the one completely non controversial crusade you could guarantee everyone in the aviation industry would back you up on.

It completely blows me away what the Australian population lets the morons in office get away with...as a society Australians are as dumb as dog****.

There are posters on this thread who actually defend ASICs when they are completely INDEFENSIBLE on ANY level at all.

Remember the political backlash against the Australia Card?

All this terrorist BS is just a way of softening up the population to the point where they eventually will accept the idea.

911 wasn't even an airport security lapse...the 911 attackers broke NO LAW until they started using their box cutters to hurt people...it was an intelligence lapse pure and simple.

The bullet proof doors I sit in front of now are the ONLY defence needed...and the 200 potential vigilantes sitting behind me near guarantee they won't even get as far as that door....if they do I will be on final approach somewhere before they have slit 4 throats...and then they will be killed.

REAL terrorists are actually NOT stupid...they know 911 was a one trick pony...but as usual 'we' are fighting the last war....the horse has bolted and we just keep bashing fresh new nails into a locked barn door.

It is positively Pythonesque in its stupidity.

I have an ATPL and a photo drivers licence...and that is ALL I should need.

[pakeha-boy]

Quote "I have an ATPL and a photo drivers licence...and that is ALL I should need"

CC ...enjoyed the post,agree with most of it.....and if only that were the case

you say you are treated as a suspect....

Q...what makes you and I any different from the rest of the population just because weve been in the industry most of our lives?....I understand your point,I just dont agree with it....

[the wizard of auz]

It is all a complete crock of ****,

Oh how attitudes change. I said the same thing when all this rubbish was proposed and was howled down by the masses. I'm glad your all finally seeing what I saw several years ago.
Its just as bad as the Safety industry that has sprung up in the mining industry.
The thing about common sense, is it aint all that common.

[Mr Bomb]

CC you put it much more eloquently that I ever could. So to sum up for those who couldn't be bothered reading through everything:

1. ASICs and fences are a waste of time
2. 911 was a failure by intelligence servcies

Something I do not agree with is that you believe we are safer now than ever before. JI the SE Asian arm of AQ are indeed active and do want to, and have, specifically targetted Australians. Previous to our current war Australian's were never specifically targetted. Now we are. So whilst worldwide there may only be an average of X amount per year of deaths from terrorist activity do not let these statistics warp you into a false sense of security. If it wasn't for JI in our region then I would agree, but becuase they exist then I disagree with your assessment on how safe we are.

Anyway I have said my piece in previous posts and other than disagreeing with how safe we are now I agree with the rest of your post.

Cheers
Mr B

[Chimbu chuckles]

JI is the poster child for maintaining F111 capability and the SAS.

My father was bombing terrorist training camps in Malaysia in the late 50s. In those days the terrorists were communists now they are islamists.

In the 60s, 70s and 80s we had PLO, Red Brigade etc etc.

In the 40s we had Ergun and the Stern Gang blowing up Brits in what was to become the state of Israel in which they formed Govt.

From the 1920s to the 1980s we had the IRA.

100 years ago it was Anarchists blowing up European heads of state and whomever happened to be sitting or standing nearby.

Get used to it people...this is the natural state of humanity.

The ONLY thing that has changed is the quality of our society's elected and unelected leadership.

PB we are NOT different to the rest of the population...are truck/van drivers being so treated?

Nope....despite the world wide preference terrorists have for truck/car bombs.

Are train stations being fitted with screening points and commuters being accosted by minimum wage 'security' staff who challenge airline pilots wearing ASICs?

Nope...despite the London and Madrid train attacks.

But we have security controlled airports all over the place...places like Grafton and Toowoomba...and aviation businesses which attract tourist to Australia have been run out of business and their owners ability to generate employment and make an honest income have been curtailed because of ill conceived ASICs and beaurocratic intransigence.

[Flying Binghi]

Appears we all agree with Mr Bombs summery.

Now what would be the best way to stop, and remove, this growing ASIC industry before it gets too big to control ?

[Zhaadum]

Easy, everyone refuse to wear/renew them and tell airport security to F off!

[Walrus 7]

The best way to have an impact is to stop using airports that require them, even if they are never checked. I know, it sounds simplistic, but I have no doubt that when the government introduced this system they did so knowing that people would whinge and squeal, but would ultimately shut-up and do as they are told. No action by pilots would have been anticipated and they knew they wouldn't ever have to deal with consequences.

So far they've been right.

Walrus

[bilbert]

Unfortunately the 'theoretical terrorist' is one of the most powerful forces in politics. Billions of $$ and thousands of high paid security jobs, also depend on there being a credible threat. It ain't going away without serious political pressure to stop the rot. With the media only to willing to promote terrorism and publicising b-s security breaches and inadequacies,the pollies are scared of even the possibility of a knife weilding nutter getting on anything called an aeroplane, getting on the news. So change isn't going to happen soon. The politician, i.e the voter, i.e the media won't wear a relaxation of ASIC conditions.
Back to the thread, the $48M would be better spent on the media advertising propaganda saying what a wonderful security system rather than useless fences.
The media bribe gets paid, the public is reassured and the pollies get re-elected and we don't have to get a new gate code every second week.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I thought I'd share last nights experience with BNE 'security' before I get some shut eye.

Pitch up at xray machine in uniform and remove laptop from navbag, tip contents of pockets into hat.

Women security person asks if I have any 'ring binders' in my navbag.

"Well yes"

"You have to remove them and have them checked separately"

I hand her said article and she preceded to look through it. 'Like a dog watching TV' crossed my mind.

"Why?"

"Because people can hide knives in the metal ringbinders"

"And what do you think I might do with a knife?"

"You might take control of the aircraft"

I **** you not that is what she said.

"But I already have control of the aircraft"

Blank look.

"How about you wait here and I go get the crash axe"

"Why?"

"Because I would really like to show it to you...big bastard of a thing...lives in the cockpit where I get locked behind a bullet proof door".

"Why?"

"To prove to you how truly stupid putting my A5 booklet through the xray machine is".

"But are the door surrounds bullet proof?"

"What possible relevance does that have?"

"Have a nice flight".

Either we wear ASICs and get left alone or we don't and they xray the contents of our navbags despite the potential weapons located in our work station...they CANNOT have it both ways.

DOTARs clearly has NO FAITH in their own mandated ASICs...which lends credence to claims made above that background checks are not carried out due to limited resources (cost)...there can be no other conclusion drawn.

Interestingly back in 1999 they DID do background checks...when I applied for an ASIC through my then employer I had to pay an outstanding speeding fine, I had no knowledge of, that was years old, before they would issue said ASIC.

So the very act of mandating ASICs for all has diminished the ASIC to the point of uselessness.

If they are not doing proper back ground checks what are we paying for?

If they honestly believe ASICs are essential why is cost a consideration?

As I said in my previous post terrorism, of one form or another, is, and always has been, a constant in our lives. The ONLY thing that has changed in the last 100+ years is the quality of our leadership.