$48 million allocated to terrorism prevention – worthwhile?
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CC...your comments and thoughts are well founded.......you are preaching(to most of us)to the choir....dont have issues with your frustation etc etc....
for me,the issue is that we are being used as the scape-goats due to the very fact that 9/11 involved aircraft....if it in fact it had been the use of ships or trucks.....then they would now be in the position we find ourselves....and it would probably be a whole different sagarso......that is my guess and only founded upon what is so apparent now....
yes ...for those of us in the industry,it seems a very futile attempt at actually solving these issues....but as Ive stated on several occasions...the only way to solve these issues is to bombard these problems with our imput.....make the public aware of the "real" situations.....
CC ...most do not know what goes on in the cockpit,most have no idea of the complexities of our profession.....and that is what I believe is the "draw" and problem with those(security) that do not understand......I have on occassion invited TSA,and security to the cockpit for a tiki tour...mate!!!!! they are like kids in a lollie store...they have no idea.....you get in there face and explain our daily regime and complexities,and they become nothing but students in a world they know nothing of ............I do it for no other reason than to know what I,m dealing with....and its sad......but they have become a line of defense that we need ...argue the merits....good and bad......
the bottom line is that it can be structured and administered to work for us as opposed to the current system,against us........we are the front line and it behoves us to make the rules work for us....easier I,m not sure.....but the current system is bull****e....we know it..the pax know it...and the bad jokers certainly know it
for me,the issue is that we are being used as the scape-goats due to the very fact that 9/11 involved aircraft....if it in fact it had been the use of ships or trucks.....then they would now be in the position we find ourselves....and it would probably be a whole different sagarso......that is my guess and only founded upon what is so apparent now....
yes ...for those of us in the industry,it seems a very futile attempt at actually solving these issues....but as Ive stated on several occasions...the only way to solve these issues is to bombard these problems with our imput.....make the public aware of the "real" situations.....
CC ...most do not know what goes on in the cockpit,most have no idea of the complexities of our profession.....and that is what I believe is the "draw" and problem with those(security) that do not understand......I have on occassion invited TSA,and security to the cockpit for a tiki tour...mate!!!!! they are like kids in a lollie store...they have no idea.....you get in there face and explain our daily regime and complexities,and they become nothing but students in a world they know nothing of ............I do it for no other reason than to know what I,m dealing with....and its sad......but they have become a line of defense that we need ...argue the merits....good and bad......
the bottom line is that it can be structured and administered to work for us as opposed to the current system,against us........we are the front line and it behoves us to make the rules work for us....easier I,m not sure.....but the current system is bull****e....we know it..the pax know it...and the bad jokers certainly know it
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One of the things that consistently upsets me with all of the security rubbish at the airports now is that it will really only have a small chance at catching the one off nutter who decides that morning that he is going to try and hijack a plane that day. So he grabs his knife or gun and tries to go through the security past check-in.
What this fails to take into account is the amount of time and resources serious terrorists are willing to put into their plans. The 9/11 perpetrators all lived in the USA for quite some months while they learnt to fly. They got their licenses and then acted.
I agree that this was a one trick pony. But the time and effort they will put into their next attack will not change.
Could it be a captain of an oil tanker? Could it be an engineer at an oil refinery or nuclear (nukular if GWB is among us) reactor? How about a production manager at a fertiliser plant?
Then there is all the inert things that could destroy a city such as wheat flour (highly explosive) and other substances.
Having cabin crew and flight crew get ASICS and requiring them to go through security screening is just bull****. If they were a terrorist they don't need to smuggle anything on board to destroy the plane. Everything is already there.
Our former government only instituted all these obsured rules to ensure re-election. Hopefully our new government will not let us down as badly.
Dick, I agree with you one hundred percent and I hope that you can use your position in the industry (often much maligned on these forums to be sure) to address the idiocy. We want to live in a free society where you are presumed innocent until proven to be a terrorist and not the other way around.
What this fails to take into account is the amount of time and resources serious terrorists are willing to put into their plans. The 9/11 perpetrators all lived in the USA for quite some months while they learnt to fly. They got their licenses and then acted.
I agree that this was a one trick pony. But the time and effort they will put into their next attack will not change.
Could it be a captain of an oil tanker? Could it be an engineer at an oil refinery or nuclear (nukular if GWB is among us) reactor? How about a production manager at a fertiliser plant?
Then there is all the inert things that could destroy a city such as wheat flour (highly explosive) and other substances.
Having cabin crew and flight crew get ASICS and requiring them to go through security screening is just bull****. If they were a terrorist they don't need to smuggle anything on board to destroy the plane. Everything is already there.
Our former government only instituted all these obsured rules to ensure re-election. Hopefully our new government will not let us down as badly.
Dick, I agree with you one hundred percent and I hope that you can use your position in the industry (often much maligned on these forums to be sure) to address the idiocy. We want to live in a free society where you are presumed innocent until proven to be a terrorist and not the other way around.
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The reason behind the current Aviation Security situation that applies is explained in this, a tad long, doco.
Well worth a peek.
http://www.stage6.com/LoneWolf/video...rit-Of-The-Age
Zeitgeist.
Well worth a peek.
http://www.stage6.com/LoneWolf/video...rit-Of-The-Age
Zeitgeist.
Where fore art thou?
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Chimbu chuckles
Sadly posting w***** don't know their left from their right.
What a
.
love love Charles
Sadly posting w***** don't know their left from their right.
What a
.love love Charles
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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the only way to solve these issues is to bombard these problems with our input.....make the public aware of the "real" situations.....
Again, I suggested the same thing back in the early days when it was all a proposal, and was howled down. I also suggested it would turn and bite you in the as$, and was told "It is there for protection of us all and so it must be a good thing" by all the knowing people of this forum.
You reap that, which you sow
Grandpa Aerotart
So you think the sorta stuff Naom Chomski goes on with will sway DOTARs?
I have a theory on 911..some very bad men hijacked a bunch of aeroplanes and crashed them into buildings...some of which eventually fell down...period.
It wasn't anything more sinister than that...merely a further ramping up of the terrorism that stretches back 40 years. The truck bomb they tried first didn't work so they found a bigger bomb.
Whether you choose to characterize it as extreme left or right it is still extreme and doesn't belong in a serious discussion...IMHO
I have a theory on 911..some very bad men hijacked a bunch of aeroplanes and crashed them into buildings...some of which eventually fell down...period.
It wasn't anything more sinister than that...merely a further ramping up of the terrorism that stretches back 40 years. The truck bomb they tried first didn't work so they found a bigger bomb.
Whether you choose to characterize it as extreme left or right it is still extreme and doesn't belong in a serious discussion...IMHO
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Quote...."Its a complete waste of time."................
Wizard.........without sounding sarcastic,I,m all ears to any suggestions you might have,and if youve posted them previously,.....then direct me ....
I dont think my thinking is that much different than yours,or C,C,s....and as CC has pointed out,Terrorism has been around for donkeys,no argument there,but we are here and now............we are dealing with the current state of terrorism....is the CURRENT system working...FAARK NO!!!....
....but one thing is for sure,we cannot continue to let the media/govt continue to do what they are doing.....and to say nothing is even worse.....I put my 2c worth in where I can.....will the public wake up...probably not.....I cant control that...but on the pilots /flight crew side of things,I can make a difference.....I,m trying to at least do that
Wizard.........without sounding sarcastic,I,m all ears to any suggestions you might have,and if youve posted them previously,.....then direct me ....
I dont think my thinking is that much different than yours,or C,C,s....and as CC has pointed out,Terrorism has been around for donkeys,no argument there,but we are here and now............we are dealing with the current state of terrorism....is the CURRENT system working...FAARK NO!!!....
....but one thing is for sure,we cannot continue to let the media/govt continue to do what they are doing.....and to say nothing is even worse.....I put my 2c worth in where I can.....will the public wake up...probably not.....I cant control that...but on the pilots /flight crew side of things,I can make a difference.....I,m trying to at least do that
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Looks like it is now $49 million. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-26037,00.html
One should ask why this extra $1 million didn't come out of Aboriginal community funds. The same communities that generally charge aircraft doing business with them, sometimes up to $50 per landing.
One should ask why this extra $1 million didn't come out of Aboriginal community funds. The same communities that generally charge aircraft doing business with them, sometimes up to $50 per landing.
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chimbu chuckles
Since your interest is in aviation and security.
Just for you from the Left foot upside down loony party.
http://www.stage6.com/LoneWolf/video...on-Eye-Witness
Its a short one so your brain doesn't scramble.
Since your interest is in aviation and security.
Just for you from the Left foot upside down loony party.
http://www.stage6.com/LoneWolf/video...on-Eye-Witness
Its a short one so your brain doesn't scramble.
Thread Starter
Chimbu chuckles,
You state:
Chimbu chuckles, I have actually worked on this – as I constantly work on any item which adds to cost and does not add to safety in a cost effective way.
While I was on the Aviation Task Force last year I requested and we gained a special presentation from the Departmental Executives on the security issues – the ASIC and such things as having to put a lock on a small aircraft – also the staggering amount of money spent on fencing at country airports which did not even have security checking for passengers. It is obvious from the presentation that we were dealing with total fundamentalists. It was obvious to me that to make a change would be almost impossible. I really believe we have another decade of extraordinary damage to GA – when it will hardly exist and then possibly some changes may be made.
The thing I have noticed is that the many of the people in the Department of Transport seem to be completely isolated from the reality of cost. You can understand why. Most I would imagine have spent their whole life working in the bureaucracy where all costs are covered whether it be travel, paperwork, computers basically anything that is necessary to do their job. In most cases they would never see a cost of this.
When I talk to these people about the saving that can be made, by such a small issue such as following overseas practice from leading aviation countries, and allowing aircraft to join on base or a shorter final than five miles, it shows they simply have no understanding that in a given year hundreds of thousands of dollars of extra cost are added by these requirements.
I have also found there are many people in the industry who have opposing views. They praise me for trying to save money in something they agree with, but in trying to save money in something they have a vested interest in – it may be removing the mandatory requirement for AOC’s for flight training, they will then criticise me. My belief is if we can remove unnecessary costs in all spheres – from things which only cost a dollar – to other items which might cost thousands of dollars, we will allow Australian aviation to compete again and to be able to expand.
You state:
Dick you are constantly looking for ways to put your stamp on Australian aviation...to make a difference...to make it better...I am constantly amazed you have not cottoned onto this yet...the one completely non controversial crusade you could guarantee everyone in the aviation industry would back you up on.
While I was on the Aviation Task Force last year I requested and we gained a special presentation from the Departmental Executives on the security issues – the ASIC and such things as having to put a lock on a small aircraft – also the staggering amount of money spent on fencing at country airports which did not even have security checking for passengers. It is obvious from the presentation that we were dealing with total fundamentalists. It was obvious to me that to make a change would be almost impossible. I really believe we have another decade of extraordinary damage to GA – when it will hardly exist and then possibly some changes may be made.
The thing I have noticed is that the many of the people in the Department of Transport seem to be completely isolated from the reality of cost. You can understand why. Most I would imagine have spent their whole life working in the bureaucracy where all costs are covered whether it be travel, paperwork, computers basically anything that is necessary to do their job. In most cases they would never see a cost of this.
When I talk to these people about the saving that can be made, by such a small issue such as following overseas practice from leading aviation countries, and allowing aircraft to join on base or a shorter final than five miles, it shows they simply have no understanding that in a given year hundreds of thousands of dollars of extra cost are added by these requirements.
I have also found there are many people in the industry who have opposing views. They praise me for trying to save money in something they agree with, but in trying to save money in something they have a vested interest in – it may be removing the mandatory requirement for AOC’s for flight training, they will then criticise me. My belief is if we can remove unnecessary costs in all spheres – from things which only cost a dollar – to other items which might cost thousands of dollars, we will allow Australian aviation to compete again and to be able to expand.
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Here is the Ministers media release with the airports involved. I still can't fathom how "fencing" improves safety other than keeping the wildlife out. There are also additional funds mentioned here that was not put forth with the Australian report.
http://www.minister.infrastructure.g...8.htm#attached
http://www.minister.infrastructure.g...8.htm#attached
Grandpa Aerotart
Radaz...an alternative view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz8cHHVoMek
People like you truly scare me...hence you're now on my ignore list.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz8cHHVoMek
People like you truly scare me...hence you're now on my ignore list.
Grandpa Aerotart
Dick I can only begin to imagine how extraordinarily frustrating that presentation would have been to sit through.
I would NEVER last 5 minutes in the situation you were in having to deal with such people...I have been described as having a 'Direct' management approach by an ex CAA ATO/ex Bond Corp CP who wrote a (very nice) reference for me after a stint as a corporate jet CP some years ago.
You may have noticed that in my posts over the years
My reaction, and people who know me well will attest to this, would have been "Are you people fecking mad?"
I don't agree with everything you say or do...I don't agree with your views on Class E over D for instance...but you'd have my support on this...and removing AOCs for instructing.
I have noticed in the last decade or so a disturbing trend towards polarisation....we shouldn't have to agree on everything in order to recognise value in a persons overall contribution. I guess it is a media/political agenda motivated thing..."You're either for us or against us" was a relatively recent example.
Where has the middle ground gone?
As I said previously...the only thing that has changed is the quality of our leadership...and we are, as a society, in VERY deep **** as a result.
I would NEVER last 5 minutes in the situation you were in having to deal with such people...I have been described as having a 'Direct' management approach by an ex CAA ATO/ex Bond Corp CP who wrote a (very nice) reference for me after a stint as a corporate jet CP some years ago.
You may have noticed that in my posts over the years
My reaction, and people who know me well will attest to this, would have been "Are you people fecking mad?"
I don't agree with everything you say or do...I don't agree with your views on Class E over D for instance...but you'd have my support on this...and removing AOCs for instructing.
I have noticed in the last decade or so a disturbing trend towards polarisation....we shouldn't have to agree on everything in order to recognise value in a persons overall contribution. I guess it is a media/political agenda motivated thing..."You're either for us or against us" was a relatively recent example.
Where has the middle ground gone?
As I said previously...the only thing that has changed is the quality of our leadership...and we are, as a society, in VERY deep **** as a result.
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This sounds like alcohol and drug testing for private pilots. I wonder how much it will cost us to be delayed in the run up bay for 15 minutes while our mouth swab gets processed. Not to mention the safety aspect of having non aviation orientated contractors running around spinning props 24/7 with sample containers. Has there ever been an accident in private aviation as a result of alcohol or drugs anyway ? This sounds like a cost benefit gone crazy to me. Which puts it up there with council workers running around checking for ASIC's and chastising you because one of your passengers walked more then 25 meters away from you to go to the bathroom in an airport that has 2 RPT movements per day. The Government should spend more money recovering the rocket launchers they let be stolen from there custody.
This is just a matter of them covering there own ass if something goes wrong.
"We Did Everything We Could dont blame us" and while ever the press operate in this country the way they do who can blame em.
This is just a matter of them covering there own ass if something goes wrong.
"We Did Everything We Could dont blame us" and while ever the press operate in this country the way they do who can blame em.
News paper headline 17/11/05 - 'Private pilots threaten to challenge security law' (AOPA)
Paul Phelan writing december 2006, headline - 'Another Security Comedy'
quote from article - ..."so a couple of hundred bad guys could breach the secure tarmac citadel if they were nippy"...
From my point of veiw, (and no doubt others have said) the leisurly and haphazard way this ASIC and the related securityfenceing has been implemented tells all and sundry that nobody really believes it will stop the bad guys.
I thought when this thread was started that there may have been a more positive answer to stop the rot of the security comedy.
Paul Phelan writing december 2006, headline - 'Another Security Comedy'
quote from article - ..."so a couple of hundred bad guys could breach the secure tarmac citadel if they were nippy"...
From my point of veiw, (and no doubt others have said) the leisurly and haphazard way this ASIC and the related securityfenceing has been implemented tells all and sundry that nobody really believes it will stop the bad guys.
I thought when this thread was started that there may have been a more positive answer to stop the rot of the security comedy.
Tweedle Dum and Tweedle from DOTARS were wandering the GA apron at YBTL today checking ASICs.
There I am, needing to move the FTDK, and I had left my Red Badge of Courage at home.
Had to: check their location (not hard to spot them cause they were wearing their day-glow vest with "DOTARS" on the back) - let myself through security gate - check their location - open hangar - check their location - pull the FTDK out of the hangar - check their location - duck into the loo to avoid being spotted - check their location - race out and jump into FTDK, close door and start - check their location - taxi to LAME's hangar - check their location - shut down, secure aeroplane - check their location - run into LAME's office.
Interestingly they entered the GA apron via LAME's hangar - without asking permission to enter the workshop area.
Dr
PS: Now if I had only had a tea towel!
There I am, needing to move the FTDK, and I had left my Red Badge of Courage at home.
Had to: check their location (not hard to spot them cause they were wearing their day-glow vest with "DOTARS" on the back) - let myself through security gate - check their location - open hangar - check their location - pull the FTDK out of the hangar - check their location - duck into the loo to avoid being spotted - check their location - race out and jump into FTDK, close door and start - check their location - taxi to LAME's hangar - check their location - shut down, secure aeroplane - check their location - run into LAME's office.
Interestingly they entered the GA apron via LAME's hangar - without asking permission to enter the workshop area.
Dr
PS: Now if I had only had a tea towel!
